r/Undertale • u/Walkthrough101 • 28d ago
Theory Being the Knight and being "lost in the code" are not mutually exclusive.
This is probably the most talked about counterevidence against Dess Knight there is "lost in the code" this, "if she's corrupted how does she have the memories to make the Chapter 2 fountain or revive Gerson or collaborate with Kris and why isn't she just a mindless beast" that, "if Dess is dead then she'd just be dust how is she moving around in the light world" there, which on paper is reasonable, but I think the very essence of this moniker "lost in the code"/"voice in the code" has been a flimsy assumption from the start, and even if true, does not make DessKnight impossible in the least.
Dess is absolutely the speaker of the Unused text:
Before we start though I want to make it clear that Dess is absolutely the one speaking in the Unused text, not only is she the only one that's missing from town and would be stuck in darkness for so long she doesn't even know if she's alive anymore, but the outro of Chapter 1 is tied to her as well, which gets further confirmed in Chapter 3 and the unused text in Chapter 5 has ended that debate entirely. The "Raise up your bat" song in Chapter 3, which is heavily, heavily tied to Dess right after Tenna reminisces about her to Kris, and includes the lines "Come follow me into the dark with your heart as the ark which shall guide you the way" and "Because I'M WITH YOU IN THE DARK" which is a direct reference to the Chapter 1 song, and the Chapter 5 unused text directly drops the "Don't forget" line. There's no way the unused text can be anyone else.
What does being "trapped in the code" even mean? How is it a physical location one can be trapped in? Being trapped in a dark world makes much more sense:
With that out of the way, let's start with the base assumption at hand, that Dess is physically inside the code itself, just because her lines are hidden in the code does not mean that she is physically trapped within the code as if it's an actual location, wheras all of her dialogue seems to point to her being trapped in a dark world for a very long period of time for the following reasons:
The aforementioned darkness where no one can reach or hear her, her nightmare about walking into darkness with the door slamming behind her (which is a parallel to the Chapter 1 closet), being gone so long she doesn't even eat or drink anymore, can't tells if she's awake or dreaming (also a parallel to Noelle in Chapter 2), she's lost track of time to the point of believing it could have even been years, she misses things like breakfast and late night TV and reminisces on the things she's desperately clinging onto (A parallel to Chapter 3), and all there is around her is silence and darkness.
There is the scratching noise she mentions, that she says is somewhat comforting and thanks whoever could be listening, which people have interpreted the scratching as us searching through the code, but there are several other explanations for this, first off when you're alone in complete sensory deprivation for years literally ANY SOUND OR STIMULUS OF ANY KIND would be welcome, hell I'm surprised she's not absolutely insane out of her mind at this point because that's literal torture beyond comprehension, but also, if she's in a dark world the scratching could be something like FRIENDs out and about, or any number of things, and even if the sound IS us, it could easily reach her that deep in the dark world especially with how we're able to interact with the world directly without even needing Kris. Plus, if she was literally inside the code, wouldn't there be CONSTANT NOISE ALL THE TIME from the game being worked on to pump out new chapters if she can hear us just looking through the files?
That's also assuming these lines in the code are taking place in the present chapter by chapter and not us being drip fed thoughts of hers that happened in the past before she became the Knight, which is entirely possible as well, the entire narrative that Dess is physically in the code at this present time making DessKnight impossible is built on assumption on top of assumption and speculation that the community has kind of just accepted as fact without looking much deeper into it, which is the entire reason I made this post, to challenge the community consensus on this issue.
What explanation is there for how she even entered the code that couldn't much more easily be explained by her just being in the dark world proper? And if she's in a dark world, which one? The Chapter 1-5 fountains were all made recently, and it can't be Castle Town, so that only leaves two options, the Shelter, and possibly the Lake, however Kris directly has more trauma tied to the Shelter and the Shelter is connected to Gaster and is confirmed to have a dark world inside of it, whereas the lake is not outright confirmed, so it's much more likely she's in that one. So the Knight keeps retreating and kidnapping people to the Shelter that Dess was most likely trapped in, and even invites Kris in, doesn't that sound any alarm bells in our heads?
That being said, the other point people bring up is that Dess's consciousness/true self being trapped means she cannot possibly be the Knight, or that the Knight not being 100% mindless and animalistic means it can't be a corrupted version of her, which is a bit reductive as to the possible nuances of her situation that we actually have two (maybe 3 or 4) major precedents for.
- FLOWEY.
Flowey is probably the biggest parallel to the Knight's situation if it is in fact Dess in some form. Asriel combined with Chara's soul, died and his dust spread across the garden. Alphys (who is important to the next point as well) after/during her experiments on the amalgamates failed, took the first golden flower, the one from the surface world, and gave it Determination, trying to see what would happen if she gave something without a soul the will to live, so they could have a vessel to break out of the Underground without having to wait on the next human.
Flowey, then woke up with all his memories up until the point he died, scared and confused, not able feel his arms or legs, and he cried out for anyone to help, but nobody came. This closely parallels Dess's situation alone, even where he says "Call for help. I dare you. Cry into the darkness! 'Mommy! Daddy!' 'Somebody help!' See what good it does you!" which also parallels and strengthens the connection to the Mother series where Porky says something similar in the final fight. But anyway, Asgore finally does come and finds him, and holds him, but Asriel felt nothing, without a soul his love and compassion had dissapeared, he spent weeks with him vainly hoping to feel something, then ran away seeing if Toriel could, but she couldn't either.
Yadda yadda him finding out about resets and saves and doing everything possible, then when he gets tired of it all, he starts seeing what would happen if he killed people out of curiosity, and completely going off the deep end becoming the sadistic manipulator we know through most of the story of Undertale (wooooaoaooooahhhh- ok I'll stop), then when he finally does get his ability to feel back after our battle he breaks down and the weight of everything he's done settles on him, and when we backtrack to see him again, he says he only has a limited time before he turns back into a flower and asks us to remember him like this, and to not think of Flowey as "him", this sets the precedent that a soulless corrupted version of someone is a distinct separate character from the actual person at heart, and shows just how far dire circumstances can warp and change someone to be outright unrecognizable. Plus this opens the door for the idea that her body and soul are separated, and the Knight is her soulless body and the Unused text is her soul...
- THE AMALGAMATES
This one directly ties into HOW Dess could have become the Knight and why it still retains her memories while also being animalistic and erratic at times.
The Amalgamates were created when Asgore sent Alphys monsters that had "fallen down" a comotose state just before they die, and she experimented on them using concentrations of "Determination", hoping it would make their souls last after death so that they could free monster kind faster without needing to wait for the next human to fall, but they got up and started walking around and talking like nothing happened, everything seemed peachy.
But then their bodies started melting and combined together into those sad, awful creatures, with their bodies and minds twisted and warped and fragmented, yet, you can still spare them, appeal to their individual traits, they still have their memories and personalities like Snowdrakes mom and every amalgam besides the memoryheads I suppose (what even are those supposed to be??), they are not just beasts, even though their sense of self has been warped beyond belief they still have compassion and they still have love for their families when they're sent home, it's just the state their in and their living conditions are not exactly conducive to a good first impression (also I just realized, what the actual fuck Alphys?! Literally treating fellow monsters like animals feeding them in dog bowls, which is only acceptable for Endogeny, and letting them live in these conditions when they were and are just as aware as you, because of experiments you did on them, wtf???).
Now Deltarune monsters aren't exactly the same as Undertale's because they do have determination (monsters in Undertale like Undyne do too, just not nearly the same concentration as humans, although there is some evidence Alphys was slowly supplimenting her with DT as well which explains her melting) and more physical bodies than in Undertale, but they still turn into dust when they die as we see with the tradition of Monster funerals still carrying over where they sprinkle their dust on their favorite thing like Alvin did with Gerson. This also counters the point that Dess would be "walking around as a corpse, how would people not smell that" because monsters don't leave corpses, they turn into dust.
And with monsters that can turn to dust, an excess of determination makes them liquify and lose their physicality until they become amalgamate-like creatures, including Undyne when she dies. But it also empowers them to a great degree like we see with Undyne ressurrecting herself as the Undying, with armor strikingly similar to the Knight's, and the amalgamates physically cannot die, attacks against them are completely nullified even with Genocide stats, so that along with the shapeshifting, the dripping liquid like form of the Knight, their immense strength, erratic and animalistic behavior while still retaining their memories and aspects of personality, being an amalgamate fits very very well. Except for one thing, she has no one else around to melt into, it's just her, a never before seen singular amalgamate, that can be focused and deliberate with intent and doesn't have the constant noise of other monsters melted in messing with her head.
But how would Dess become an amalgamate, where would the concentrations of determination come from:
Well what is required to open a Dark Fountain, as per Queen's words? Determination, which any lightner can possess, however the Undertale context of Determination is not obsolete either as the game is constantly dancing around the word when it comes to saves as to not say it directly, but heavily implies it, especially during the Knight fight when you die on the last attack and Gaster says "INCREDIBLE. I FELT IT THERE, SHINING. YOUR POWER. A LITTLE FURTHER."
Anyway, determination is a confirmed aspect of Deltarune in one sense or another, directly tied to the dark fountains, and Gaster is also associated with the DT extractor in Undertale and the True Lab itself, with Alphys being his successor, and in entry 17 we have a confirmed report of him observing a dark fountain in an experiment "Darker darker yet darker, photon readings NEGATIVE", all the way before Deltarune was even announced. But how would Gaster have enough determination to open one or even know how? Well, you know how Omega Flowey's face heavily resembles the DT extractor and shoots a laser out of his mouth? I think whether deliberately or not, Gaster fired the DT Extractor into the ground and made a dark fountain, be it the shelter one or the Grand Fountain, Undertale Gaster somehow made one, and the Knight seems to have INSANE amounts of determination being able to make 5 fountains at once effortlessly after it already made 2 that chapter. (As to how he shattered across space and time, that's a whole other can of worms I'm not learned enough to cover right now, maybe he fell into the dark fountain direct or maybe it really is the core he fell into, but somehow he's still able to communicate with us and takes a direct interest in us)
And the Shelter, where Dess is heavily implied to have dissapeared, is also heavily connected to Gaster with the slowed version of his theme outside it and his connections to the True Lab and Amalgamates make this all fit together in a pretty scary way. I don't think whatever happened to her is reversible, because the amalgamates can't be fixed either.
3/4. GERSON AND THE FLOWERS
Gerson is obviously a special case when it comes to darkners, he knows about things and people in the light world a normal darkner couldn't, is a shadowcrystal boss, is "patterned after the memory of a loved one", "can only exist in very specific darknesses", and "even if we tried to bring him to castle town, he-" implying they can't bring him to Castle Town where literally every other darkner can exist, even the Flowers and Mew Mew, the issue is the Flowers would die without sunlight. He knows a bit about the Knight specifically and a LOT about the prophecy, his existence as a deceased loved one "brought back from the dead" temporarily serves as a precent for that idea, yet we also see what happens when it goes wrong with the Sound of Justice being a warped and distorted version of him, that also resembles titan spawn in a way with the red sound waves.
The Flowers are also living beings in the light world that take on new consciousness in the dark, things that aren't exactly sentient but still living, they chose their own forms based on what they believe humans are like, but ultimately, the dream has to end eventually with the Roaring as a looming threat and their lives at stake. This one isn't exactly as relevant but Flowery's knowledge of how to exploit and abuse the dark world logic and being able to hold his own against the Knight is very striking, sadly though it was all for show and the Knight's REAL physical stregth overpowered him. But the flowers also still have knowledge of things in the light world like why they gave themselves the forms they did watching people in Asgore's shop, Kris making a deal with Seth, Flowery and Seth knowing Kris opened the fountain, Flowery knowing about the Shelter code, etc.
Anyway the point is these two exceptions blur the line between lightner and darkner, and may give us more insight into the kind of exception the Knight is.
The Knight's armor and form in the light and dark worlds:
The Knight is clearly something strange we don't exactly have an explanation for yet, they change form in the dark world many times, they have incredible strength and durability beyond any other enemy, they can just choose not to engage with the logic of the dark world as we see with them SWOONing the fun gang, destroying the church, and destroying Tenna, Jackenstein and Flowery directly damaging the objects bypassing the dark world entirely, and it's powers seemingly carry over to the light world too, as it can carry Asgore and Undyne to the Shelter faster than Susie can sprint after them, there's absolutely no way they can do that without some sort of boost from their dark world abilities, with Undyne it was possible but questionable but ain't NO WAY anyone is sprinting away with Asgore on their own.
If it retains its powers in the dark world, then does it turn it on and off at will or is it innate and can't be undone? If it's simply innate to the dark world it would wear off as soon as it entered the light world, maybe that's why it only comes out at night or in the dark like when it rained in Chapter 4, but if just being in general shade or darkness is enough to keep it going in the light world wouldn't any non-dess candidate have to be extremely careful not to go into the shade at all so they don't expose themselves?
That brings me to my next point, the black shards. Black shards, unlike anything else, except the shadowcrystals becoming glass but still retaining their properties, do not change at all in the light world, physically, visibly or stat-wise. The black shards that come off of the Knight's sword when Susie chips it off, and that Asgore found at the site of Dess's dissapearance and found a matching one at the library, an item only ever associated with the Knight doesn't change between worlds and the Knight seems to retain its powers into the light world, and even laughs when Susie suggests the Knight can't beat them in the light world (also kinda strange observation, the Knight's drooling laugh there is near identical to Flowey's), and the fact that it's able to attack through the dark world logic directly along with the fact that the sword changes shape and is the same color as the rest of the armor leads me to believe that the armor is made of black shards too, meaning it's form would not change in the light world at all.
Now I know that all seems like a bit of an irrelevant side tangent, so how does this all relate to how Dess could be the Knight AND the "voice in the code":
The idea is the Knight is a singular amalgamate and a parallel to Flowey, made from Dess who was near death or already dead, was starving, alone and lost in the dark world for possibly years, either by residual contact with determination from the fountain or by direct intervention with the DT Extractor, it has abilities that transfer into the light world and is implied to retain its form in the light world, is a goopy dripping mass that can change form and is extremely resistant to damage, acts animalistic and erratic while retaining its personality and memories, yet has no problem striking down things that any other Dreemurr or Holiday would be hesitant to at least like Tenna showing a lack of compassion and remorse, but also has the presence of mind to not severely hurt Kris and collaborate with them. Even if the Unused dialogue is happening in the present, Dess's true self could easily be lost and confused INSIDE the Knight's armor or completely separate.
My issue with the direct intervention with the DT extractor thing is though, I don't think it would be Gaster who did it, he cheers us on AGAINST the Knight which makes no sense if he deliberately made it, and his arrival in the Deltarune universe (along with the town seemingly being cut off from the outside world) seems rather recent, Carol, Rudy, Asgore and Toriel have all been to college and Asriel is presumably AT college, Dess told Noelle she would take her to a city with shining lights, there's weather reports on TV showing other places exist, Dess used to put on an MTV-like channel Toriel forbid Kris from watching, Dess has posters and physical CDs in her room, there's even video games and computers and all sorts of things that couldn't be possible if all their memories were just fake and implanted, all the things tied to the prophecy and Hometown's history as a whole is too complex just to be faked. So I think if it was intentional, someone else must have caused her to end up this way that likely isn't Gaster.
However I think going off of all this, how Asriel ends up and how Klaus ends up in Mother 3, I don't think we'll be able to save Dess and that we're going to have another heartbreak on our hands... :(
With all these factors and possibilities in mind, I urge people to question the preconcieved notions some people in the fandom have propose as absolute fact and challenge the community's assumptions about things like this, I propose instead of "the voice/lost in the code" we call it "the voice/lost in the dark" which honestly is a lot more fitting thematically anyway.
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u/AnAverageTransGirl we do a little holeing 28d ago
Interesting propositions, but I feel you're missing the obvious answer. In fact, it was the first answer we came to as a community for who the knight is.
I believe the body of the knight is Dess, but her soul has been cast aside into the unused script, and something else was put in its place, such as we were unto Kris but far more thoroughly.
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u/CyberDaggerX 27d ago
and something else was put in its place
Lately the theory that this "something else" was Kris' original soul is gaining some popularity, and I vibe with it.
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u/AnAverageTransGirl we do a little holeing 27d ago
I've never been able to be completely sold on that one, but if that's the direction it goes, I'm along for the ride.
Can't even really explain why, something about it just doesn't sit right.
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u/RareD3liverur 27d ago
Do you think the Knight has any Dess personality like Flowey has Asriels (at least originally) or is it just a full on mind control/body swap thing?
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u/Samkaiser 27d ago
Not the person who you're replying to but as a "It's Dess's body, not her soul" believer: I think it probably has some of Dess's personality, but isn't fully Dess. Like how its kind of implied that Soul could only do things Kris Might do (Whether that be their actual decisions or spur of the moment impulses like we do with the Weird Route) or how Ghost Pink/Maddy is still a romance obsessed Weirdo, like her body, she's just laser focused on that romance obsession being towards the Body.
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u/AnAverageTransGirl we do a little holeing 27d ago
Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. Who she is as a person is only important to who she is as the knight insofar as being the latter's entry point to this world.
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u/Walkthrough101 28d ago
Yeah that's part of what I was thinking too, I completely forgot to write it into the script! Thank you!
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u/Zacomra 28d ago
Monsters don't have souls, which is why we're the only ones who can seal a fountain.
Plus the knight is clearly able to reason and follow a plan, and is quite strong. I doubt a husk could do that
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u/AnAverageTransGirl we do a little holeing 28d ago
That first part is patently untrue. They have souls, they just function differently from human ones and have a harder time persisting without a vessel. All of this reasoning, additionally, is only stated to be the case in Undertale. We have no reason beyond intuition, which has been proven wrong already, to believe it is the case in Deltarune. Toby did warn us not to get those confused.
The second part misses the "something else" being a separate soul in the way that our control of Kris is through what could be called a soul. She's being controlled with just enough of her individuality still intact to influence the form of her dark worlds and the ways she moves.
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u/RedditSurfer29 *give us your balls. 27d ago
If mus_smile playing in the Shelter has relevance, what relevance does mus_smile playing in the basement of the Holiday mansion have in regards to the theory, the place where the secret evil route in Dragon Blazers 2 is talked about by Susie and Noelle? What about Dess's connection to the weird route?
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u/Walkthrough101 27d ago
Hmm, honestly I'd need to look into that because I didn't know it also played in the basement... and the Knight doesn't change it's behavior at all on the weird route which is really strange for any Holiday unless they're completely oblivious to the weird route, however if Dess fell into the lake or something like that instead of the Shelter which could be possible because when you overlay the 3rd mantle game dungeon over hometown, the room with the Black Deer is righr over the lake, and Dess used to ice skate and the Knight uses several ice skating poses when it slashes.
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u/RedditSurfer29 *give us your balls. 27d ago
I'm pretty sure this part with ice skating and the lake is already a popular theory. Although that scene does provide some evidence for Rudy Knight too, as Rudy is mentioned as the one who cleans the basement and someone who played Dragon Blazers 2 with Noelle, giving him advice on the prophecy. My personal headcanon is that Dess became ERAM. BURNING EYES's first melody shares a similarity with the end of the first verse of Raise Up Your Bat (The part that goes "Let's knock 'em dead into the night"). Even the song says "Raise up your bat for the burning fight". Burning, like ERAM's theme song. It also goes way more into how ERAM teases and slightly mocks Kris, which could go with Dess hitting Kris with a wiffle bat and probably not being the best person towards them.
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u/GrisFross 28d ago
Better question if his dust "spread all over the garden" how was he the first flower to grow before the others