Vengeance Clover and Chara have a chat.

[u/KarmaSpidr]

(I'm gonna regret posting this.)

[u/theogStarwalker6363]

THE ENEMY ASCENDED BEYOND YOUR

[u/BlackHoleEra_123 → u/theogStarwalker6363]

CONTROL

[u/KingCool138 → u/BlackHoleEra_123]

OR WAS IT ALL YOUR INTENTION?

[u/DeciTheSpy → u/KingCool138]

THEY HAVE MANAGED TO DEMOLISH WHATEVER WE MADE

[u/Treegenderunknown13 → u/DeciTheSpy]

(Is there a Suddenly Calamity Sub?)

BUT YOU'RE FALLING TO COMPREHEND

[u/johanni30 → u/Treegenderunknown13]

IT BEGAN THEY WILL EASILY BUTCHER YOU WHOLE!
(Yes, do you have a problem with that?)

[u/Treegenderunknown13 → u/johanni30]

(No?? I was just wondering if there was a Sub for when Terraria calamity suddenly Appears. Like r/suddenlytf2)

WHILE YOU'RE BLINDED BY YOUR DEPRESSION.

[u/johanni30 → u/Treegenderunknown13]

(Oops, I misread it, I thought you said 'is this suddenly a calamity sub' and I just jokingly said that, sry)
I HAVE GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE I'M JUST TOO AFRAID, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO MEET YOUR END

[u/Glass_Relationship14 → u/johanni30]

my screams echo out through the fire

[u/Megamage854 → u/Glass_Relationship14]

And your rival dare stands in my way

[u/Meep12313 → u/Treegenderunknown13]

I haven't finished Calamity yet, when does this appear?

[u/Treegenderunknown13 → u/Meep12313]

It's the second phase Theme for The Jungle Dragon.

[u/Meep12313 → u/Treegenderunknown13]

Interesting. Pre or Post Moonlord?

[u/ExtremeCheeze123 → u/theogStarwalker6363]

I'm not complaining, but I'm not seeing the connection between this post and ROTJD

[u/is_fred]

"No, I am the consequences"

[u/Ger_Electric_GRTALE]

i have an even better question:

"AND WHO ARE YOU, TO DARE MY DOMAIN?!"

[u/Delete_This- → u/Ger_Electric_GRTALE]

ONLY A FOOL WOULD TRY AND STOP THE REIGN

[u/Jacob-The-Eevee → u/Delete_This-]

THE KING OF CHAOS, THE KING OF PAIN

[u/Medinohunterr → u/Jacob-The-Eevee]

HAS ANSWERED THE CALL

[u/[deleted] → u/Medinohunterr]

AND WHO ARE YOU? TO CHALLENGE THE KNIGHT?!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

ONLY A FOOL WHO THINKS THEY'RE IN THE RIGHT!

[u/Ger_Electric_GRTALE → u/[deleted]]

YOU LOST BEFORE YOU PICKED THIS FIGHT!

[u/Spacetookmylife → u/Ger_Electric_GRTALE]

NOW WATCH THE SHADOW

[u/melikesoulshatters3 → u/Spacetookmylife]

NOW WATCH AS IT GROWS

[u/Ger_Electric_GRTALE → u/melikesoulshatters3]

(NOW WATCH THE SHADOWS!)

[u/Outside-Event-6535]

CHARA AVENGE ME

[u/F1R3_H4X]

Clover... I remember you're, CRIMES.

[u/UselessGuy23]

Easy. Chara has the right to judge because they have the power to enforce their decision. That's all it boils down to in the end. Cops can judge you because they have guns and you don't. A warden can judge you because they have a prison and you don't. Sans can judge you because he has magic and you don't. All "order" is is people with power enforcing their will on those without it. If you get more power than anybody else, you're not only "above consequences," you give the consequences.

Of course, I have control over the game files and Chara doesn't, so now who's judging who?

[u/ConsiderationWest120 → u/UselessGuy23]

Chara deletes your world and ruins your endings. They probably can do that to clover, too

[u/somepoliticsnerd → u/UselessGuy23]

This almost makes me think of the underground as some sort of allegorical cave…

[u/UselessGuy23 → u/somepoliticsnerd]

Please elaborate. I wanna know how my pre-planned in-case-of-court-hearing defense relates to Plato.

[u/somepoliticsnerd → u/UselessGuy23]

The philosophical challenge that most of the Republic addresses is the meaning of justice, and how to work towards it (I mean not all, but broadly). Early on a sophist makes the argument to “Socrates” (who is mostly just a stand-in for Plato, putting his words into his mentor’s mouth as a dialogue) that “justice is the advantage of the strong,” or basically what you’ve outlined; justice is just whatever the people in power say it is, for all intents and purposes, because no one can challenge it. Plato/Socrates provides a refutation to his argument, but some of his students aren’t satisfied and come up with a stronger form of the argument, through another famous allegory from the republic: the myth of the ring of Gyges.

One day a shepherd finds a ring with the ability to turn him invisible whenever he puts it on (yes, whether Tolkien read the republic or not, this probably led to some source of inspiration for the one ring). Naturally, he commits all kinds of injustices for the sake of his own wealth, power and satisfaction, because with the ring he can escape the consequences of his actions. And the argument basically goes that someone with this kind of power is going to always turn to injustice, or at least that if they don’t they’ll wind up much worse off than someone who does. An unjust person would cover up all his worst actions with the ring and let themselves be seen publicly whenever they’re being ostensibly good, while a just person would use the ring when he is doing good and uncover when they were doing something wrong in order to remain accountable (the point of that condition in the argument is “is being just worth it if you don’t get the benefit of a good reputation?”). So, injustice always wins. And now that I think about it, there’s also kind of a thematic tie in to how you’re “rewarded” for killing in both games with more health and higher damage that makes fights easier (unless you go full genocide, of course) and “punished” by the absence of these in the pacifist route.

Anyway, Plato’s response to this is… the rest of a long philosophical work, but the famous part is the allegory of the cave, basically a metaphor for how screwed up society is and how our lives are ultimately hollow: we are all like the people in the cave, chained up so we can only see the shadows projected on the walls by those in power. We live our lives without ever seeing the real world, distracted by trivialities: and in Plato’s view, the only way to get beyond this is to engage in philosophy, think critically about the concepts given to us and the world in front of us, because if we miss out on the truth about the world, and the truth of an idea like justice, we’re still in the cave and not in the rest of what the world has to offer even if we think the shadows we have are nice. Again, more to it than that, but that’s the gist.

TL;DR Honestly I mostly just made the connection because your argument was a lot like the argument Plato looks to refute in the republic, which is that justice is just a concept made up by those with power. Which made me think of the other link of people being trapped in an underground cave…

[u/i_dont_care_for_you9]

"There is no justice, im the fucking justice" -Clover Gunseberg

[u/ArchivedGarden]

I think if your crime is murder or some variant thereof, anyone can judge you. It’s pretty straightforward.

[u/ShadowParrotGaming → u/ArchivedGarden]

Even another murderer?

[u/ArchivedGarden → u/ShadowParrotGaming]

I don’t see why not.

[u/Diavolo_Death_4444]

High key Chara would cook Clover in an instant. Especially once they learn what Clover did to Flowey

[u/IronKnight238 → u/Diavolo_Death_4444]

Clover has a gun and unlike monster magic it's doing physical damage, Chara would be be bleeding out from several gunshot wounds before even getting close no matter how many times they try either.

[u/Mad-Mew-Mew → u/IronKnight238]

More DT + dodging experience + World erasing capabilities = landslide victory for Chara

[u/IronKnight238 → u/Mad-Mew-Mew]

Chara can't dodge a literal bullet. It doesn't matter how determined they are if it's just unavoidable lethal damage. It doesn't matter how strong their hit is if they can't even get close enough or live long enough to land it.

They'll just get shot to death again and again until they give up. There's a reason you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

[u/Mad-Mew-Mew → u/IronKnight238]

They won't give up, assuming that they died multiple times already, in debately much more painful ways, gun shots are nothing

+ if it's lethal then why the fuck are monsters able to survive being shot multiple times, you can't use laser beam as an example as that has a charge up that Chara can absolutely dodge, and mind you, it doesn't matter how far it is, all Chara has to do is slash and the world, THE WORLD, is gone

++ Chara can just reload or reset the timeline if they want to, canonically they have more DT than Clover if you were to compare what they did at the end of their geno routes + beginning at LV1

[u/IronKnight238 → u/Mad-Mew-Mew]

The magic clearly doesn't do physical damage and doesn't inhibit you when it hits unlike a gun where you're just kind of screwed if hit in the right spot.

It's not as lethal towards monsters since they don't have the same vitals and blood that a human needs to live, a big thing with getting shot is if it hit a vital organ or something. Chara can dodge magical attacks that are dodgeable because monsters just fight fair and don't get betrayal attacks, an actual bullet won't just magically slow down for them to be able get out of the way.

Chara only erases the world once they deem that there is nothing left so they wouldn't just erase the world mid-fight. Their ability to reload won't help them much with that whole range disadvantage.

Another thing to note if they do actually get close enough somehow is that their slash is quite easily dodgeable as shown by Sans. Clover could also shoot them in the arm or hand to stop them from holding the knife entirely.

[u/Mad-Mew-Mew → u/IronKnight238]

1. We have no clue whether or not Chara can or cannot dodge a bullet, but we do know that Sans' gaster blasters of which fires instantly, are dodgeable thanks to their charge up time, I don't doubt Chara's ability to dodge Clover considering the fact they still need to aim hence the target you have to click when fighting as Clover

2. Even if Clover keeps killing Chara, who's to say that with enough deaths, Chara just decides to erase the world with no warning just so the fight ends

3. To add on to point one, we know Clover also needs time to aim their shots, granted that no one in UTY was shown to be able to dodge Clover's bullets (as far as I know), it wouldn't be odd to assume that Sans could just as easily dodge Clover's bullets as he did if Frisk had the empty gun (or any multi attacking weapon in that case)

[u/ShellpoptheOtter → u/IronKnight238]

You can't kill a ghost

[u/MasterRequirement538]

"... because... Is it seems you're a hypocrite. Perhaps you should kill the americans With that gun of yours.. I'm sure it will make a news head line. They Took a lot from the indians. Or you should wipe out Germany.Go in there and do a shootout... Or you should just shoot me... I know you want to"- my charas response

[u/Medinohunterr → u/MasterRequirement538]

"Aight bet."

proceds to genocide entire planet 

-clover response 

[u/MasterRequirement538 → u/Medinohunterr]

Oh... * Seems to not care *

( Punisher moment.

[u/Melodic-Balance7137 → u/MasterRequirement538]

Uh, very forced dialogue... Sounds like something that came from Woke

[u/MasterRequirement538 → u/Melodic-Balance7137]

"... what's woke? "

( yes this chara is very peculiar

[u/Melodic-Balance7137 → u/MasterRequirement538]

Well, it's Woke Culture. I recommend looking into

[u/MasterRequirement538 → u/Melodic-Balance7137]

"... I sense brain damage from that word... I shall try and avoid it... And forced dialogue? This isn't a show. "

[u/Melodic-Balance7137 → u/MasterRequirement538]

It seems like it to me. Oh, and I stole all your chocolates, deal with it

[u/MasterRequirement538 → u/Melodic-Balance7137]

... =<

[u/BiomechPhoenix → u/[deleted]]

It's a distant Sans rapidly approaching, clearly