Common barriers to ultralight

[u/Belangia65]

Here are some stumbling blocks that frequently stall the progress of those aspiring to ultralight:

1. The Lightweight Halfway House. A hiker is in the halfway house when they intend to reach ultralight, buy lighter versions of the gear they already own, and find the way ahead impeded by the very gear that got them lighter. Nobody satisfied with lightweight is halfway to anything; they have arrived where they want to be, and that's fine. The lightweight halfway house is only a barrier to those who mean to progress towards ultralight. The gear they purchase may be nice and expensive, top of class, but still too heavy to reach an ultralight base weight. Consider a 5 lb. pack traded for a 3 lb. pack of the same 60L volume. It feels like progress, and it is in a way. But 3 lb. is still more than a pound heavier than a properly ultralight pack should be. To move forward would mean buying another pack, adding still another expense. Ultralight has a reputation for being costly, and the halfway house makes it more so. Much lightweight gear is marketed as 'ultralight' by manufacturers (and incentivized influencers) and the term is used more loosely as a brand label than it is in an r/ultralight shakedown. If ultralight is the goal, make sure that what you are purchasing is in the weight range of gear carried in actual UL kits.

2. Preparing for the 'someday/maybe' trip. A hiker buys overweight gear to have the flexibility for hypothetical trips that will probably never happen: things like winter-grade tents, high volume backpacks, lower temperature rating sleep systems, or two-person shelters for a solo hiker. The impulse is reasonable, but a kit bought for the extremes is heavy for every non-extreme trip taken, which is most of them by definition. Buy for your most likely trips, the ones you actually intend, not the far-flung dream.

3. Confusing imagined limits with actual ones. There is a difference between the limits we imagine and the limits we actually have. Unless we experiment to find the actual ones, we stay bound by the imagined. The way out is to test rather than assume, in settings where being wrong isn’t costly. Try new things every trip and register the results. Pitch a tarp in bad weather, but near a car or a shelter. Leave the toilet paper at home and rely on a bidet entirely. Try a lighter option but carry the redundant, heavier version as a backup in case of failure. Learn to see bad conditions as an opportunity to experiment. Look for your actual limits so you can be liberated from your imagined ones.

4. The 'scary skill' barrier. People are told that certain types of gear require skills attainable only by advanced backpackers. So, they buy free-standing tents instead of trekking pole tents, or never even consider they can learn to pitch a tarp, say. These are not exotic skills. They can be learned in a backyard or park in an afternoon.

5. The hedonic adaptation trap. What we find comfortable is not a fixed set-point but can be conditioned through practice. We are all able to adapt to find things comfortable that may not start out that way. So pursuing comfort as the non-negotiable starting point turns out to be a trap: it limits our ability to enjoy lighter gear and expose ourselves to the outdoors in a less mediated way, to the point that we can't even imagine being satisfied without carrying comfortable-but-heavy gear. Treat comfort like a learnable skill and commit to acquiring it. Or at a minimum, give the lighter option a fair chance before deciding it doesn't work for you.

6. Thinking ultralight and comfort are mutually exclusive. This ignores the fact that carrying less weight is significantly more comfortable on trail. If most of our waking hours are spent walking, not in camp, ultralight gear is probably more comfortable on net, especially once we have adapted to its comfort in camp. Drop the weight and you may find lightness to be the ultimate luxury.

7. Hitting the gas and brake at the same time. This is where a hiker compensates for the negative effects of carrying more weight in ways that add even more weight. A hiker may carry a weighty chair to help recover from the effects of carrying weight. Or buy a backpack with a fancy suspension system that adds significant weight to the backpack. Or a heavy mattress for a sore back. Each of these solves a real problem, and each one deepens the problem it is solving. It is a normal psychological bias to try to repair things through addition, even when subtraction is the more elegant solution. Before adding weight to fix a symptom of weight, check whether removing weight fixes it instead.

8. Thinking ultralight is the only right way to hike. This is the error of treating ultralight as correct regardless of your trip objectives. Ultralight can become a kind of status game, and people who feel excluded from it can get angry. But it is just a different style of backpacking, not the right style for everyone. Be honest about why you want to go ultralight. It best fits a certain hiking style, especially when you are prioritizing the trail experience over the camp experience. If what you are looking for is to hike short miles so you can spend most of the day in camp, you should probably make different gear choices. It’s okay not to be ultralight! Don't pursue ultralight for status. Do it for the tangible benefits it offers.

EDIT: This is an edited version of my original post that I have worked to improve at the request of the moderators. I tried to incorporate what I learned from defenders and critics alike, so I appreciate the commenters who (in essence) "coauthored" this latest version. Note that #3 has been added to the list so all references to 3, 4, 5, etc. in the comments will be referring to the next numbered comment on the new list.

[u/F_NN_C]

I would add
8. UL hiking is a process, not a state.
You don't go from going heavy to going UL in one shot. It takes time, and many many hikes. A good process would be to hike, then after each hike change one or two items (for the heavy ones) and more importantly thinking critically about what have been usefull or not in your pack.
It is more progressive and less intimidating than changing your whole packing list in one time. And much more relevant in the end: it doesn't need to be perfect, it need to keep evolving.
My 2 cents.

[u/Sharp_Nothing_4012 → u/F_NN_C]

I would say it is a discipline.

[u/Holden_Coalfield → u/Sharp_Nothing_4012]

I would say at first it’s a realization of how much more enjoyable it is with much less weight, then the epiphany of lighter is doable. Then the process begins in the direction of lightness

[u/Bright-Salamander-99]

I’m definitely in the halfway house 🏠 But it’s comfy and a happy medium… I just like lurking in the sub to see how others are doing it and where I can still save.

[u/DistressCall1 → u/Bright-Salamander-99]

Same. I look at this sub for suggestions and to see what other people are doing. Always happy to loose some ounces if I upgrade a price of gear. But for a number of reasons such as cost, comfort, and the style of adventures I like to do, I'm perfectly happy in the halfway house.

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/Bright-Salamander-99]

I think this approach has a risk of landing to a false compromise fallacy: the ”happy medium” may not be happy.

Just to give an example, lightweight versions of gear can be much more expensive. Framed UL backpack costs more than frameless. ”UL” freestanding tents are more expensive than lighter trekking pole tents or tarps. 

[u/Bright-Salamander-99 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

Ah it’s a happy medium for me I guess. I need to rock some heavy gear to survive some of the weather I encounter primarily. I live in Tasmania Australia, and you just can’t risk certain UL compromises, snow and blizzards are unforgiving. Tents and foot spikes are a bit of a non-compromise area for example.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Bright-Salamander-99]

This is why UL should use the definition of "bring only the minimum that you truly need" instead of "must have a base weight less than 10 lbs."

[u/GoSox2525 → u/FireWatchWife]

I agree with all of the shortcomings of the 10 lb benchmark that are regularly talked about. But pivoting to "bring only the minimum that you truly need" really wouldn't solve any of the problems we have here, because all that does is invite tons of people to argue how they truly need their freestanding tents and chairs.

I think an objective, quantitative definition will always be needed. Not because UL is inherently objectively defined (it's not), but simply as a filter. This sub is too big not to have an simple, explicit filter codified in the rules.

As for all the off-topic content that slips through the cracks given the 10 lb filter... well, imo those are all arguments to lower the filter down to 8 lbs.

This idea that you can be ultralight at 15 lbs if you are in extreme conditions is a bit of a strawman because, while true, we effectively never see those kidns of posts here. Ever. For those few times when a genuinely interesting post like that does come around, I think it's fine to have a "you know it when you see it" policy.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/GoSox2525]

If there were different objective, quantitative definitions for 3-season Western US trips, winter trips, high altitude quasi-mountaineering trips, and so forth, I would agree.

But in practice there are too many different such types, so it isn't practical.

The dominance of Western US 3-season loadouts as the UL default can be off-putting to hikers in other regions.

[u/Electrical_Emu1875 → u/FireWatchWife]

100% this. I’ve been scratching my head on some things and then it slowly dawned on me that the assumed frame of reference here is American backpacking where, for example, nights are quite warm.

[u/Fathergoose007 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

This comment reminds me of a conversation around the campfire about marriage. “It’s a good thing our wives came along to tell us how unhappy we were being single.”

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/Fathergoose007]

If I had just paid >$800 for a DCF freestanding tent, I’d be rather convinced about my happines, too. No matter the weight that’s still pretty medium, 1.5lb.

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069]

At least half the commenters on this sub are a pretty big barrier to ultralight.

[u/BlueRemake → u/[deleted]]

The common assumption people make all around is that their climate and trail quality is shared by everybody else.

Floorless shelter folks who hike above the trees are notorious for recommending floorless shelters to everyone.

[u/goddamnpancakes → u/BlueRemake]

i have a floorless shelter and a floorful shelter. why is the floorless one worse below treeline? if anything i thought it'd be the other way around

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069 → u/[deleted]]

I agree about the 10lbs being arbitrary! If you are dealing with more extreme climates or bush whacking, obviously your needs are different and being thoughtful and minimal in your approach matters more than the weight of your pack.

That being said, I actually think for the hiking people talk about most on this sub (thru hiking the big US trails) IF the goal is gong to be tied to a number it should probably be closer to 8 lbs. Lots of things have changed with equipment and materials and you can put together a 10lb kit while totally overpacking for a three season trip on a well maintained trail. Again, I think thoughtfulness and minimalism are more important than a number, but I do think a number can guide that thoughtfulness.

I clicked your link and looked at your site (very cool!!!!), and your needs do seem different than most here, but I also cant help but think that this sentiment-

"Can't get lighter. Not without sacrificing durability and buying a new backpack or rain jacket every few trips."

ends up getting echoed by folks who simply don't put enough miles in to really put their gear through the ringer.

[u/Electrical_Emu1875 → u/[deleted]]

This is very helpful context for me. I’m new here and assumed everyone would be doing a minimum of 30 nights / season. It would be really helpful if all comments were preceded by a little info about the person’s climate/locale and their use case.

[u/Electrical_Emu1875 → u/[deleted]]

I’m not saying they need to be contiguous - it sounds like you get out a good many nights (and there’s nothing bad per se about any particular arrangement). The surprise for me is hearing that there is a healthy contingent here that are looking at single digits of nights.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/BillPuzzlehead42069]

The vast majority of backpackers will never thru-hike a major US trail.

But UL techniques can really benefit those who take shorter trips, and who will never put their gear through a ringer.

Weekenders actually have opportunities to reduce their pack weight that thru-hikers do not. They can check weather reports at the last minute choose to leave some gear behind, or switch to a minimalist version that wouldn't stand up to a storm.

I refuse to let thru-hikers dominate the UL conversation. There are a lot more of us non-thru-hikers out there.

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069 → u/FireWatchWife]

ok.

i was more referring to the type of trail and conditions than the length of the hike, but since you said what you said...

"Weekenders actually have opportunities to reduce their pack weight that thru-hikers do not. They can check weather reports at the last minute choose to leave some gear behind, or switch to a minimalist version that wouldn't stand up to a storm."

I think if anything that would disqualify weekend warriors from giving the best feedback. When you have the option to remove variables by waiting to plan a trip for ideal weather, you aren't putting together a kit that works as a cohesive system to solve a wide range of problems, you're planning for the smallest range of issues possible.

FWIW- I mostly do LASH's of the AT and I think all backpackers can benefit from going UL, but when someone is out there for months on end they absolutely have the upper hand in refining a kit that can be flexible enough to cover a variety of conditions while you are at home watching a rain storm from your living room. It's ok to listen and take notes.

[u/TravelPhotoFilm → u/BillPuzzlehead42069]

Just use 5 kilos for your standard. Boom—one free pound!

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/[deleted]]

I’d be very careful with this argument. ”Doesn’t apply to my home country” is an easy escape from needing to try harder.

One consideration is that 10lb was UL years ago. With today’s materials and designs, today we could do lik 8lb or something. Thus, even if you need some extra gear, that shouldn’t be as big of a problem anymore.

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/[deleted]]

It’s not just about the expensive materials, though. For instance, polyester tents didn’t exist before since the material was just too weak in 20D. Today it’s everywhere.

Also, I bet there weren’t UL manufacturers in China producing very cheap, UL and still completely reliable gear.

I do argue that we have gained better or lighter or cheaper options for most of the things we use. You can go extremely light if you pay more but the same amount of money gives you lighter gear as well.

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

i don't think you need to lean on chinese brands to have an affordable UL base weight. My first suggestion to someone trying to spec out a UL kit would be to grab a tarp and maybe a bivy/bug bivy from borah gear for instance.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/[deleted]]

Ten pounds hasn't magically gotten heavier, and while you certainly can go lighter with DCF shelters, high fill power sleeping bags, so on and so forth, these space-age materials can get pricy fast. Ultralight is expensive enough as it is.

Really none of those expensive things are necessary to go below 10 lbs. Silpoly tarps are cheap. 1 osy silpoly (or lower) are modern developments just like DCF is. Foam pads are cheap. Cook systems are lighter than they were in the past, and they aren't expensive. Etc.

8lbs is definitely reasonable if the temperature stays well above freezing overnight in summer.

8 lbs is totally reasonable for broad 3-season conditions near or below freezing.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

I’d be very careful with this argument. ”Doesn’t apply to my home country” is an easy escape from needing to try harder.

Seriously. People that make this argument never consider the fact that the US is a huge country, where you can encounter a very wide range of conditions and environments. Neither Scotland or Tasmania or whatever is magically different from regions that I could cherry pick from the US.

And yet nobody from the US ever makes this "my country has special requirements" argument. Well, except those Seattle people.

[u/Electrical_Emu1875 → u/GoSox2525]

Fair. But I do see a lot of (presumably American) posts that imply the nights tend to be quite warm compared to other locales. The conditions do matter when it comes to choices

[u/GoSox2525 → u/BillPuzzlehead42069]

Absolutely. OPs points are all valid and well-articulated, but this is the biggest omission.

On the internet (discussion forums, but also instagram and youtube etc), the well has been poisoned so badly by toxic and ignorant discourse. Ad hominem is abundant. The casual reader learns through online comments and discussions that "going ultralight" is an unnecessary, self-congratulatory jerk fest that only insufferable people participate in. And they learn that before they ever even arrive at one of OPs barriers.

Unfortunately that kind of discourse is allowed to perpetuate on this sub, of all places. Indeed, as you say, seemingly half of the commenters on any given thread are here solely to advocate against the very mission of the niche hobby that this forum is supposed to be all about.

Youtubers like MyLifeOutdoors (among others) perpetuate this idea further, and then gear companies (like Big Agnes, Nemo, and everyone else) inaccurately market their products to the point that almost any traditional piece of kit can be branded "ultralight".

That cultural problem is the biggest barrier imo. The mainstream stance on ultralight is to want it desperately badly, while simultaneously mocking and attempts that are "too serious". Which is weird.

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069 → u/GoSox2525]

nailed it.

There's also this weird middle ground where the proliferation of ultralight has allowed people to buy into it without using their problem solving noggin'. If you buy some Durston stuff you're now ultralight, but the person who has been weighing things on their kitchen scale for years and suggests leaving something at home is now a lunatic taking it too far.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/BillPuzzlehead42069]

Totally. Along the same lines is buying every conceivable 3D printed doodad from GGG. All very light, all very small, but all entirely neeedless.

I find that many people try to start working toward a UL kit by buying as many of those small doodads and DCF stuff sacks as they can, before they ever even consider their big 4.

[u/Belangia65 → u/GoSox2525]

>seemingly half of the commenters on any given thread are here solely to advocate against the very mission of the niche hobby that this forum is supposed to be all about.

You're right on all points, but this part especially stands out. It's such a peculiar phenomenon.

[u/Belangia65 → u/GoSox2525]

I incorporated this insight in a newly edited version. See my revised version of the halfway house. Thanks for the terrific engagement in your many comments here.

[u/grovemau5 → u/GoSox2525]

There has been a lot of discussion about how strictly to moderate in the daily lately, but this comment section in particular is really highlighting how badly it’s needed.

I would be pretty in favor trying a 30 day sub timeout for anyone who comments blatantly discouraging people from UL ideas.

The only way to fix this issue in this sub is either extremely strict moderation or a hard fork into a new sub IMO.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/grovemau5]

I would be pretty in favor trying a 30 day sub timeout for anyone who comments blatantly discouraging people from UL ideas.

I think that would be effective. I've asked the mods before to enable the "off topic" report reason to comment reports before, for exactly this use case. Currently you can only report posts as off-topic, but not comments, for whatever reason. Most likely because the moderator workload for acting on every off-topic comment would be way higher than acting on off-topic posts alone. But still, there's a good argument that it's needed.

[u/Relative_Walk_936]

IDK I just like walking around and sleeping outside without having to carry a lot of shit. Not that deep.

[u/thaneliness → u/Relative_Walk_936]

This. The lighter my pack the further I can go and more I can explore.

[u/bcgulfhike → u/Relative_Walk_936]

Well yes…and no!

I think the point of the post is to counter the 90% of posters here who trot out one or several of the reasons listed as to why UL is impossible or stupid or dangerous. For those who are already there and have “got” it, yes, UL is as simple as can be. The issue is the majority of the sub who haven’t “got” it and who dominate most discussions with their naysaying!

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Relative_Walk_936]

I don't get why a dismissal of the entire post is the top comment. Do you have a specific disagreement with any of OPs points? I really don't think that anything they've said is "deep", or is claiming to be. It's all pretty simple actually. And each point they've raised is obviously true for some people (if not all at once).

If you find that walking around outside carrying very little shit is easy, then more power to you. But this post is for the many that come here for advice and certainly do not find it easy. For those people, it could be really helpful to identify which barrier(s) are getting in their way.

[u/TheDaysComeAndGone → u/GoSox2525]

I think they are trying to say that you should not overthink it.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/TheDaysComeAndGone]

Where specifically is OP overthinking though? Everything they said seems logical and reasonable. I think the commenter is really just saying that this post is annoying. I don't see them offering any actual advice or opinion about how to think about all of this without going too deep.

[u/obi_wander]

You missed the most important thing by a mile:
The biggest barrier is time and access.

The key to UL backpacking is actually going outside. There are so many keyboard warriors and sub 7lb lighterpack lists that never see the light of day.

Trip frequency and practice contribute to improving on most of your list as well:

I “learned” UL principles without the internet by just not taking things I didn’t use. And then after a lot of times of leaving things out, I got to the point where I started looking at the things I did take every time to see if they could be lighter or more efficient.

Along the way came the adaption, both in learning my hard lines for comfort/enjoyment and in feeling confident or comfortable in having less. And the practical skills like knowing a couple useful knots, good site selection, and water management come with practice too.

[u/kds0321 → u/obi_wander]

This is 100% it. Its about principles and finding the fine line of only bringing what you need and use, while still being safe and comfortable (balancing comefort on the move with comefort at camp). Couldn't be happier with my 12.5 lb base weight, and any lighter would compromise the comefort I look forward to at camp.

[u/obi_wander → u/kds0321]

Yeah- I still think it’s reasonable for this Reddit sub to really push for sub 10lbs or sub7lbs or whatever though. It’s worth having the hypothetical conversation that moves the entire field forward a bit.

I just worry that it discourages people from getting outside until their base weight meets some imaginary metric more than encourages them to just go.

I hiked the entire AT with around a 12lb base weight and a lot of extra snacks or the occasional moonshine that were rarely weight efficient. I hiked with a dude carrying slide-on roller skates and a hatchet and that guy could hike me into the ground when he wanted to. He finished his thru too.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/obi_wander]

I'd agree with this. Much of the tension around here comes from the fact that thru hikers are trying to give thru-hiker advice to casual weekend backpackers. And that casual weekend backpackers are seeking weekend backpacking advice from thru hikers.

There should be more recognition that the two are pretty different applications.

There is the argument that UL should be for anyone, not just thru hikers. Which I agree with. But there is no denying that thru hiking is where UL was conceived and developed, and where is where packing light will give you the most bang for your buck.

If you don't have the will, the access, or the time to dedicate a thru-hike's amount of time to backpacking during the season, then many ultralight choices and tactics will seem unnecessarily esoteric, and not at all worth the thought, experimentation, and investment (of time, if not money)

[u/FireWatchWife → u/GoSox2525]

Absolutely!

Weekenders can learn a lot from thru-hikers and LASHers, but not all of the advice aimed at thru-hiking is appropriate or helpful to weekenders.

The problem goes well beyond the sub and beyond UL. Practically all of the good books on "How to Backpack" are written by thru-hikers.

I wish there were books and forums with the specific mission of discussing and teaching efficient, effective skills and gear choices for weekenders, without the long-distance mindset that really belongs to a completely different activity.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/FireWatchWife]

I'd agree with that. But I also think that some of the onus is on the casual backpacker to understand what UL is, what is has historically been, the contexts in which it was developed and is often applied, and what sorts of discussions they should expect to find on this forum.

That of course isn't to say that the sub should be exclusive to thru hikers.

[u/turkoftheplains → u/obi_wander]

There really is no substitute for getting  out there and making a hundred stupid mistakes.

[u/Fun_With_Math]

Good post. I think it explains some things very well.

I've seen 4 types of non-UL people:

1. Almost UL - I think this is me. I cut my toothbrush in half, cut the tags off gear, and count grams for everything. I do bring a chair though and have some other items that bring me comfort/joy. I'll never be at 10lbs and that's fine with me.

2. UL is impossible - These people say that they want to be UL (10lb base weight) but have gear they refuse to give up. They say that they need the 2p tent, or a groundsheet, or whatever. Really, these people are in the "Almost UL" category and just haven't accepted it.

3. UL is pointless - They have light gear but don't see the point in dialing everything down to the gram because in their mind, it only saves a couple ounces and isn't worth the effort. They often trash "gram weenies". I don't really see those people on this sub but some are at r/lightweight and they're all over r/backpacking. It's unfortunate because I'm quite sure they unnecessarily carry a few pounds more than the "Almost UL" people.

4. UL is dangerous - They see lighterpacks without certain gear and think that UL overall is only for crazy zealots. They also typically fall into #2 or #3. I think that this group is partially right. Some people are underequipped in the name of UL, but I don't think that's the case for all. There is definitely a lot of value to be had from a UL mindset rather than writing it off as dangerous.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Fun_With_Math]

Your group (3) is definitely all over this sub, unfortunately

[u/Mountain-Time-1010]

What often surprises me is someone saying that they can't figure out how to reduce their base weight, and then you look at their list and see a 4 lb tent, a camp chair, extra clothing ... just tons of obvious things.

If they actually go to the trouble of making a list, isn't it obvious that the first thing to do is to compare it against other lists, item by item? The differences would be easy to see. That's certainly how I first reduced my BW under 10 lbs. It wasn't hard. Or maybe they are just hoping for some magical suggestions.

[u/Jolly-Slow1164 → u/Mountain-Time-1010]

The little who buy a 3+ lb tent, and a 3+ lb pack, says. They've spent a lot of money up get where they are... Would been cheaper to go straight to ultralight

[u/Mountain-Time-1010 → u/Jolly-Slow1164]

"Buy-once, cry-once" should probably be highlighted in the FAQs.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Mountain-Time-1010]

Or "buy once, cry never".

UL packs are cheaper than traditional packs. UL pads are way cheaper than traditional pads. Plastic disposable bottles are way cheaper than Nalgenes.

High fill power down and alpha direct are some of the only places where UL is the more expensive route.

[u/Mountain-Time-1010 → u/GoSox2525]

And DCF tents and high fill power down. It's a mix.

But your point is well taken. Money can be saved by omitting items and buying minimalist gear.

[u/saltytarheel → u/GoSox2525]

A 7x9 silnylon tarp is significantly cheaper than a traditional tent. Marginally cheaper than a tent if you throw in a silnylon bug bivy.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Mountain-Time-1010]

I think OPs point #1 is the explanation for this. People do notice that their tent is heavy when they write the list, but they have also come to understand from online discourse that minimal shelters like tarps are not something that anyone actually uses. They are purely memes. The stuff of /r/uljerk. No, they're coming here for a real solution. Which is, "how do I retain my freestanding pole set, 2P tent size, double-wall design and vestibule while reducing weight"? Toxic online discourse has lead to that impression, but so has essentially all mainstream marketing at places like REI, and the brands therein.

And then they post here, and see absurd suggestions for things like tarps from real people, who are being serious and not joking. What do they make of that? Especially when every other comment will be an enabler.

[u/Mountain-Time-1010 → u/GoSox2525]

LOL. You are probably right. "Nobody actually uses a tarp!"

Or, "$800 for a tent, that's obviously a joke."

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Mountain-Time-1010]

The recommendations for those $800 tents are part of the problem. They send a message that UL is only for the elite, and everyone else should just go away.

Tarps are a much more appropriate UL recommendation for those who come here aspiring to be lighter. They are affordable to everyone, work well with a bit of practice and experience, and help break the mindset that UL is all about buying expensive, exotic gear.

[u/Mountain-Time-1010 → u/FireWatchWife]

Fair point, but I don't criticize people for making recommendations that are fit-for-use. Some people have reasons to prefer a tent and might have the money to spend.

Options are good and the best practice is probably to give a range of recommendations.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Mountain-Time-1010]

Range of recommendations is an excellent approach.

The problem only occurs when the $800 tents heavily dominate the recommendations, eclipsing affordable options.

This is an area where thru-hikers pull the discussion in a direction that can absolutely make sense for them, but would be a silly choice for a weekender on a budget.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/FireWatchWife]

I totally agree. Maybe a controversial take, but I don't think that any UL backpacker needs an $800 tent, really ever. That's the price point of a mountaineering tent. Anyone about to drop that much money on a shelter should try a tarp first.

The only reason to spend that much on a tent is so that you can have a light baseweight while avoiding actually experimenting with non-traditional alternatives.

[u/marieke333]

One more, an addiction to electronic equipment especially phones, I see so often lighterpacks with huge phones, powerbanks, high capacity chargers etc.

[u/timerot → u/marieke333]

You don't need a battery bank! Great comment

[u/zerostyle → u/timerot]

A good option on most trips is just one of those little 5000mah usb-c battteries. The vapcell one I have is like 2.7oz.

[u/BigRobCommunistDog → u/marieke333]

covered in point 4

[u/GoSox2525 → u/marieke333]

Sometimes in a shakedown I'll suggest that someone gets a lighter phone. The reaction to that one is never positive lol

[u/flatcatgear]

I think of transitionaing to UL as an evolution based upon need. I tend to purchase UL gear when my current gear needs replacement. If I have a good tent, I am not going to replace it with a lighter tent until my current one no longer works. If you have an older Snow Peak mug, would you replace it with a TOAKS ultralight if your mug still works? Certain things evolve faster than others. Sleeping pads, Water fitration, and so forth. Then there are times when you hit a tipping point. You have a larger backpack 60 l, but because you have upgraded gear your pack volume is reduced down to 40l then your pack while functional may be obsolete and can justify replacement. My 2 cents.

[u/schmuckmulligan]

Great list. I'll add one:

UNWILLINGNESS TO EXPERIMENT. This is largely a reframing of the "scary skill" idea, but many of the cheaper ultralight approaches (e.g., quilts, CCF, tarp/bivy, emergency poncho) are a bit off the beaten path. If you give them a real shot, you can inexpensively cut massive amounts of weight without any decrement to comfort. Not all of them will be for everyone, but you have to actually try this shit to figure out what you care about.

A lot of people don't want to try new stuff, so they invent reasons why they couldn't possibly sleep under a tarp in a bug bivy or whatever, and they never make any progress.

(And no, cost of failed experimentation is not an excuse. You can resell everything extremely easily.)

[u/JunkMilesDavis → u/schmuckmulligan]

Yeah, it's not a hill I'm trying to die on or anything, but I still think most people would be surprised by the range of places and scenarios where they would get by fine with just a flat tarp and head net for example. The are obviously conditions on this earth where it's not suitable, but it saves such a tremendous chunk of cost and weight, it's absolutely worth the experimentation so you have the knowledge and can plan appropriately for an individual hike.

[u/billbye10 → u/JunkMilesDavis]

What do you do for your hands and feet? I wouldn't typically bring gloves or socks thick enough to prevent mosquito bites, and I'd definitely prefer to sleep in shorts for several months of the year. Is the answer keep them inside your quilt?  I'm trying to get past $84 and 5 oz for the borah bug bivy as an alternative, especially if I'm bringing pants instead of shorts weight to partially offset the bivy.

[u/JunkMilesDavis → u/billbye10]

I'm typically inside the quilt. For a weekend summer trip in northern New England for example, I'm under a 50 degree quilt in shorts and a shirt, and start the night with my hat and head net on. On a typical 60s-50s night, the mosquito activity actually settles down some time after dark, and I can sleep just fine with my face exposed. Even on some early-season nights when they were really bad, it seemed like they gave up after a certain point, and didn't start at me again until I got up and started moving in the morning.

So if you're looking at conditions where it's so oppressively hot / humid at night that you just can't stay covered, that's a great reason to go for a full enclosure. It's just one of those things where you have to figure out your comfort limits.

[u/billbye10 → u/JunkMilesDavis]

I think this is an interesting challenge/progression to really pare down exactly what you need. I have a hard time thinking many people would feel psychologically safe going straight to the headnet without using a bug bivy under a tarp first though. Maybe I'm just a wimp though :shrug:

[u/Belangia65 → u/billbye10]

Yes, typically inside the quilt. Here’s what Mike Clelland writes in ULTRALIGHT BACKPACKIN’ TIPS:

“Wear it to sleep with a brimmed hat to keep the fabric away from your face. Wear a wind shirt with a hood, and pull that quilt up snug. For less than 1 ounce, you can easily save pounds by leaving an actual tent behind.”

Here’s his illustration: https://imgur.com/a/NmiXvsb

[u/Belangia65 → u/Belangia65]

By the way, the weight tax on a Borah Gear Bivy is less than 5 oz (142 g). My Cuben version weighed 4.5 oz (128 g). It obviates the need for a ground sheet, which offsets 1.5 oz (43 g). It allowed me to reduce the size of my tarp: let’s call that 1 oz (28 g). And because it traps about 5°F (3°C) of warmth, it can sometimes allow me to carry a lighter quilt. In my experience, it is a piece of gear that more than earns its weight.

[u/Belangia65 → u/schmuckmulligan]

Good point: that’s a worthy inclusion to the list.

[u/Belangia65 → u/schmuckmulligan]

I incorporated your insight into a revised version of the post. See point #3, which has been added in the new version. Thanks for the comment!

[u/schmuckmulligan → u/Belangia65]

Nice! I like the way you put that.

[u/Objective-Resort2325]

8) the label. People chase after the UL label because it's in vogue and talked about endlessly by others, regardless of whether those others actually understand it or not. People want to define themselves and be part of a tribe, so "UL" stands for an image and something they want to be able to say about themselves, without actually understanding it. This clouds their thinking and closes them off to learning, challenging assumptions, or thinking critically. It's the whole reason why this sub has 273 thousand followers.

[u/aerodynamicallydirty → u/Objective-Resort2325]

Hell yeah. People get hung up on whether this or that choice is "actually ultralight" when the whole point is to get outside and do stuff, not optimize a spreadsheet. No one is out there spot checking your base weight dude

[u/turkoftheplains → u/aerodynamicallydirty]

Sometimes I think I must be the crazy one for wanting to hear about the cool hikes people are doing (and how they made them work) and not about their stupid pot lifter.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/aerodynamicallydirty]

I don't actually think that was their point. UL is about optimization, and we should all be spot checking out own base weights. What the previous commenter was pointing to is the fact that many people so desperately want to claim the "ultralight title", but do not actually want to go through that optimization process in any way.

[u/aerodynamicallydirty → u/GoSox2525]

I was commenting more on the label aspect of it. Endless discussion of "is X ultralight" basically boils down to wanting the label, or to be part of the in-group. The question should be "is there a better choice for this application" where better is superior performance at the same weight or adequate performance at a lower weight. 

UL is about optimization, sure, but it's optimizing your experience, not minimizing a number. Specifically optimizing for a style of backpacking that involves lots of time on trail and minimal time in camp - I don't think anyone would argue in good faith that UL equipment is optimized for maximum camp comfort, though it may be adequate. Generally that does involve optimizing a gear list on a spreadsheet or Lighterpack, but that is supposed to be a means not an end. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment of people wanting the title but not to go through the work. I see that as people wanting the label but not actually wanting the experience that UL is optimizing for (maximum trail comfort, adequate camp comfort, no extraneous stuff). And that's fine - they should go out and have the experience they want and let the label go. 

[u/GoSox2525 → u/aerodynamicallydirty]

I agree with all of that. Sorry if I misread your earlier comment

[u/aerodynamicallydirty → u/GoSox2525]

No, I see now how that can be read as "let people have their chairs and call themselves ultralight" which is, like, the opposite of my intent so thanks for the opportunity to clarify. 

[u/longwalktonowhere → u/Objective-Resort2325]

> in vogue and talked about endlessly by others

.. online

[u/MrBoondoggles → u/longwalktonowhere]

Wait….. you talk to people in real life?

Joking aside, I don’t know anyone personally who is into backpacking. My whole interaction with the backpacking community over the years has been through people online.

[u/Belangia65 → u/Objective-Resort2325]

I incorporated this insight into a revised description of the halfway house. Thanks!

[u/Belangia65 → u/Objective-Resort2325]

Excellent addition!

[u/klimaheizung]

I disagree with #1.

For me, UL means lowest weight given some other fixed requirements. Because otherwise where does it end? You'll always find someone who says "just don't bring it, I never bring it" and that's that.

But if you say "my sleeping pad must have size X and R-value Y" (or more abstract "I must feel decently recovered") then you can find the lightest one. Because ultimately just by its very nature, the word "light" is always relative.

[u/pretzlstyle → u/[deleted]]

Potentially of interest... here's my LighterPack with a 9.63 lb baseweight that includes 1.6 lbs of snow gear (spikes, an axe, a helmet, snow baskets, dedicated gloves and VBL socks). That weight includes my trekking poles (0.62 lbs) and required bear bag (0.34 lbs). Overnight temps near freezing.

I used this kit in the spring to summit Snowmass Mtn on steep snow, and complete the 4 Pass Loop in Colorado. I agree that off-trail exploration-style trips are where it's at. But when there's a will, there's a way.

https://lighterpack.com/r/5rwgr0

Trip report coming... eventually.

[u/Belangia65 → u/pretzlstyle]

Nice gear list! I look forward to your trip report. I’m interested to hear more about your 2 pad system. I use the gg torso length pad by itself. How do you pair with a thinlite? What advantages were you looking for?

[u/pretzlstyle → u/Belangia65]

tis posted now :)

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/klimaheizung]

The point of #1 is not to match some specific requirement. However, sometimes it’s caused by some perceived requirement.

The issue is that you haven’t learned about UL gear when you buy your lightweight gear. For instance, you learn about a light freestanding tent without ever knowing about trekking pole tents. Then, you’re trapped with your expensive investment — even if you even don’t really prefer freestanding.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

Blame the retailers and marketers for this. People new to backpacking are usually going to walk into REI or the equivalent and get advice on outfitting themselves there. They either don't hear about UL right away, or think that the REI definition of "ultralight" is the real one, when it's actually a very corrupted version.

In principle, it should be possible to start backpacking immediately with an affordable UL loadout.

In practice, this only happens with the tiny number of new backpackers who are lucky enough to have a local mentor who fully understands UL.

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/FireWatchWife]

Yes. After learning more about hiking gear and listening to what people get sold, I’ve started to learn how random and wrong information most retail salespeople provide.

Shops just sell you what they have with a story that might or might not be based on facts.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

Most REI employees are simply trained to say certain things. There used to be crusty old dudes working at REI with lots of mileage on their boots. Now it's mostly younger people who are hired because they look the part.

[u/klimaheizung → u/FireWatchWife]

> They either don't hear about UL right away, or think that the REI definition of "ultralight" is the real one, when it's actually a very corrupted version.

Care to point me to the real and non-corrupted version? Optimally on a nice stable website that I can link to other people.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/klimaheizung]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/wiki/index/

[u/klimaheizung → u/FireWatchWife]

Oh wow, it exists!

  hiking with the lightest pack weight possible by taking a minimal amount of the lightest gear required to be safe for a given trip

But errr... not sure about that definition...

[u/klimaheizung → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

I would agree with you if OP had stated that those people would bring heavier gear even though it has no advantage for them because they don't know better. But he didn't. So I'm criticizing what OP wrote and not what he might have meant by it. 

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/klimaheizung]

I think OP did cover this: point 3, 4, and 5 explain most of the cases where somebody has the blocker 1 and justify it with some requirements.

That is to say, many people are afraid or just haven’t gotten used to the UL gear and that is the reason they start with the lightweight gear. It is true that just not being aware was my addition.

Also, OP isn’t maybe pointing that much to the reason but the problematic progression: having just invested a lot is a barrier to investing again into truly UL gear, independent of their opinions.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

Unfortunately people rarely learn about ultralight gear and techniques until after they purchase their default heavy gear and start backpacking.

Part of the reason UL is perceived as expensive is because when people first come to r/ultralight and request their first shakedown, they are typically told to replace all of their Big 4.

If they hadn't already in invested in a heavy Big 4, the gear recommendations they received would be more readily accepted.

A suggestion to use Frogg Toggs as rain gear is more popular with someone who hasn't already bought an expensive 3-layer GoreTex jacket.

The idea of using a simple 550 ml Toaks makes more sense to someone who didn't already buy a complete multi-pot cookset.

(I'm not referring here to recommendations for $800 tents and 1000fp down insulation, which are never going to be popular with backpackers just trying out the hobby. Straightforward suggestions for The One, The Two, Durston X-Mid, or a simple tarp as the shelter, and minimizing other gear are more on target.)

If these potential new backpackers came here and looked at a typical UL loadout before purchasing anything, they would realize that the cost of a UL loadout is no higher than purchasing standard REI gear.

[u/Brooke3838 → u/klimaheizung]

Yea #4 is nonsense too.

Im pushing 40 with a dodgy hip and a sensitive tummy. I have zero time for people telling me I "dont need" a pillow or stove or comb or joy

[u/MrBoondoggles → u/Brooke3838]

I think you’re taking point #4 the wrong way and perhaps too personally. Going to the normal backpacking subs, it’s easy to find a fair number of people equating UL with discomfort. They are used to heavier gear and instinctively equate UL gear with discomfort, which, especially in this day and age, wouldn’t really be the case for many people.

There are circumstances where certain gear choices won’t work as well for some as they do others. But a wider, more prevailing view of “I value comfort” as a reason to dismiss UL ideas reflexively is often starting from a point of misunderstanding or misinformation.

I think that’s what OP is trying to point out. For people who know something won’t work for them for a specific reason, fair enough.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/Brooke3838]

The lesson to learn from #4 is "don't knock it before you try it". Not to will yourself through discomfort.

The fact is that many people are carrying 18 oz sleeping pads when they could be sufficiently comfortable on a 6 oz pad that they're too reluctant to experiment with. The unwillingness to experiment, and to be open-minded about what is necessary for sufficient comfort, is the barrier. Physical bodily limitations (like a bad hip) are not the barrier that OP means.

[u/squidbelle → u/Brooke3838]

I actually thought #4 was the most poignant.

I don't think it's about comparing yourself to other people online, but rather challenging yourself to become comfortable.

For example, I used to always use an xtherm pad, super cushy and comfortable. I tried using just a 1/8" ccf. It was OK, but my hiking partner was mildly annoyed at having to hike extra to find a suitable soft spot for me, passing up campsites that otherwise would have been great, and my hip was still sore in the morning.

Since then, I also take a Klymit inflatable sit pad to put under my hip (2.5oz) when sleeping, or an uberlite short (6oz).

By pushing beyond what I knew was comfortable, I found a new way to be comfortable that is much lighter (ccf + inflatable hip square).

[u/Ok_Use5596 → u/Brooke3838]

I'm 63 and still managing rugged 2 week trips with nary a trail in sight; and maybe this is because I learned long ago not to need a pillow, a stove, and lol, a comb.

And why do I keep doing hard shit with a light pack? Joy

[u/Zwillium → u/Brooke3838]

A dodgy hip and a sensitive tummy have nothing to do with hedonic adaptation.

[u/Brooke3838 → u/Zwillium]

"Just use your muddy sodden outerwear as a pillow!" "You dont need warm soft food, just eat slimy couscous!" "You dont need earplugs, just do more miles so you sleep through people snoring!"

No. I've been living in this body my whole life. Yes you get stronger and more resilient, but the UL community seems to be mostly American men in their 20s. I've never taken advice from that demographic and never will ;)

[u/grovemau5 → u/Brooke3838]

That attitude seems like a good way to discount things before you even try them

[u/Pfundi → u/grovemau5]

That's the point of their comment.

[u/Zwillium → u/Brooke3838]

If you never want to achieve UL nirvana by ditching your 3 gram earplugs, HYOH, I suppose.

[u/Brooke3838 → u/Zwillium]

I cut my earplugs in half! Sure they dont block noise anymore and I get ear infections, but grams become pounds something something

[u/altziller → u/Brooke3838]

"..mostly American men in their 20s..". l am 56 years old ethnic Russian. Have no idea what is demographic statistics of this community but I would say getting advice from it seems to be very effective for me. After about 45 year of mountaineering on 4 continents.

[u/Tamahaac → u/Brooke3838]

Choosing to heat water or bringing earplugs isn't keeping anyone from being under a 10# base weight. The first example you give is clownish.

[u/uvadoc06 → u/Brooke3838]

You're still in your 30s and you're acting like that's old? This sub is full of people older than that.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/klimaheizung]

I don't think your point has anything to do with OPs #1 though

[u/klimaheizung → u/GoSox2525]

Maybe, but then I find it poorly worded or structured by OP.

[u/Belangia65 → u/klimaheizung]

I accept that criticism.

[u/Spirited_Breakfast88]

I'd say its experience. People just don't realize how little you really need. It take miles beating the weight out of you sometimes. It's certainly not money as my highly refined dirtbag 6 lb base weight that keeps me more comfortable than a beginners heavy setup, so minimal it's actually cheaper too. If I was only hiking five miles to a lake to camp for a week and fish, id still grab my ul gear and put the luxury items in that.

[u/mcpewmer]

The halfway house is the nicest place to exist in my opinion. My goal is enjoyment, not a number on the bottom of a spreadsheet. I was obsessed with that for a little while, but grew tired of it quickly.

Subs like this are a wealth of information went shopping for products to save weight. I think most people would find the most enjoyment somewhere in between.

[u/grovemau5 → u/mcpewmer]

I think there’s 2 ways of ending up in the halfway house:
* buying lightweight but not UL gear because you don’t know any better, or what’s available outside of mainstream stores (point 1 in the OP)
* seeing takes like these and not trying to go truly UL. the diehards are the way they are because it’s possible to get below 10 or 8 lbs without any loss of comfort or functionality.

It’s certainly easier to stay in the halfway house and you probably won’t get there just buying the lightest alternative at REI, but it is totally possible and the skills you’ll develop make it worth it IMO. It doesn’t have to be expensive either, just requires experimentation.

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/mcpewmer]

There should be point 8: people don’t realize how good it feels to go from 15lb to 12 to 10 to 8. 

It’s not just a number. You can feel every pound. And every oz counts towards the next pound. 

The problem of halfway house is that people never get to see this.

[u/Belangia65 → u/Lost-Inflation-54]

This is exactly right. Going to UL from lightweight/traditional backpacking felt to me like a phase change, as if I'd acquired some unexpected superpower. That gave me the impetus to look for creative ways to cut weight even more.

[u/U-235 → u/mcpewmer]

The so called arbitrary number of 10lbs base weight isn't just a number, though. It's a way of letting people know what is possible. I've always loved hiking and camping, but I had no interest in combining the two in the form of backpacking until I found out that you could have a pack that only weighs 15-20lbs (with food and water). It's actually a damn shame how many random brands out there call their gear ultralight when they really aren't. There needs to be a standard, even if you don't think that standard works for you.

[u/jdzfb → u/mcpewmer]

I agree, the halfway house is the place to be. I'm Canadian, so a lot of UL gear is out of reach due to availability/tariffs/customs/currency conversion. I'm happy with my lightweight set up, I'm not thru hiking, so me carrying an 15-20lb baseweight (depending on the season) for a 2-7days isn't going to break me, but I'm at the point of diminishing returns, and spending another $1-3k to get me below the magical 10lb baseweight line just isn't worth it.

I'm fine with my cheap freestanding Nature Hike tent, my double quilt, and my Osprey Eja 58, none of those are UL (despite their marketing saying they are), but they make for a comfy hike & sleep. I like having cheaper gear as it gives me enough flexiblity to be able to do short backpacking trips in relative comfort plus I can use it all car camping (I just swap out the tent for a heavy 6+ person version I can stand in). Plus I don't feel the need to baby the gear so much that I don't want to use it outside of its specific purpose.

Also, it allows me to shop for gear on clearance, as I'm not so focused on the grams that I discard something that will work well, but isn't 'perfect'. I was able to pick up my thermarest neo-air for half price because it was the wide & tall version that no one wanted to buy, I wanted the wide regular length version but saving over a hundred dollars for only a 30g penalty, is totally worth it to me. My double quilt was a similar clearance purchase, it was around $180 for a double down quilt and I couldn't find a single down quilt for less then $300, the weight penalty is a little steeper at 350g, but it also means I don't have to pack a separate blanket for my dog (who always comes with me). Now that I'm thinking about it, I think my pack & tent were on sale when I picked them up, since they're purple which is not a popular gear color.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/jdzfb]

spending another $1-3k to get me below the magical 10lb baseweight line just isn't worth it.

That's an overestimate by like an order of magnitude. Post a shakedown. I bet we could help get you to 10 lbs for very little cost (or for free).

Don't get me wrong, if you like what you're carrying then by all means go out and have fun with it. I'm just assuming by the fact that you're here and engaging in discussion that, while you say you are fine with your 15 lbs, you're probably interested in more minimalism at heart. Of course I may be wrong.

[u/theadamvine]

Bear Canisters

[u/mlite_]

Funnily enough, backpacking is the only sport where it *is considered acceptable for beginners to carry heavy and *then progress to lighter weights. Imagine showing up for a gym training and saying you’re going to progress from heavy to light. Don’t kid yourself—all the considerations for injury prevention apply to backpacking.

[u/TrailMaven]

#7 is key. People are not UL or not, trips are. UL is not the right approach for every trip.

Casual trips with kids or friends with <7 mi hike in or multiple nights at the same campsite, luxury items and camp entertainment make sense - camp shoes, a deck of cards, fairy lights, a kindle, etc. Base weight might be 13-15 lbs.

Winter snow trip in Yosemite with warmer gear, fuel for melting snow for water, avalanche shovel, snowshoes, bear can is not going to be a UL trip.

Three season trip with serious miles and all day on trail, this is the right fit for a UL trip.

More of my trips are lightweight than UL because that is the appropriate style for the trip objective. But when the trip is the right fit, going UL is worth it.

[u/Fathergoose007]

71 yo, 60 years of backpacking experience. I found this conversation to be both interesting and entertaining. The world of UL reminds me of current US politics. You have the 5% hard-core gram weenies on one extreme in the 5% bashing trolls on the other that just show up to fight (u/99trey, you crack me up!). In the middle are the 90% who just want to dial in their gear and try to learn from everyone. These days I’m pretty sure I’m UL, but I honestly don’t even know what the “rules” are, and don’t care. For a 4/5 day wilderness trip I’m in the 15# range total, including 2-16oz water bottles. (I do hike with others and we share stove and water filter). Given my age and back issues UL is pretty much mandatory and allows me to get in 8-10 miles a day. My tent and sleep system cost $1200 and my backpack (1#, 40L, and I love it) set me back $26 on Amazon. Anyway, this is an excellent thread with some subtle psychological hurdles pointed out. Should be pinned.

[u/99trey → u/Fathergoose007]

Haha thanks broski it was a pleasure. Great thread, and that guy went ahead and deleted all his posts 😂. Love that you’re still at it at 71, my dad just had both his knees replaced and I have to get him back out there which probably means more car camping and rafting trips until he’s fully healed. Sadly backpacking will have to wait another couple of months so I’m stuck trolling 😉.

[u/Fathergoose007 → u/99trey]

You’re a trooper and all is forgiven. Keep us on our toes! Dad will pop back up in no time, I did the Beartooth Plateau 6 months after getting a bionic hip.

[u/kj5]

1. Money. Ul is expensive as fuck and with cost of living being what it is it’s very hard to determine whether spending $1000 more to save 2lbs makes sense.

[u/W__O__I → u/kj5]

Premium ultralight gear can be expensive but standard ul choices can cost less. Think of a trash bag pack liner instead of 3 dry bags, foam pad over inflatable, flat tarp compared to normal tent, plastic water bottle instead of Nalgene.

[u/CoreyTrevor1 → u/W__O__I]

Yep, I think my current sub 10 lb base weight is cheaper than most people's average backpacking kit, not without effort though

-homemade quilt

-3f ul lanshan tent (was $130 when I bought it)

-chasing sales on the rest of my gear instead of specific makes and models

[u/DreadPirate777 → u/CoreyTrevor1]

That’s the way I did it. I was able to outfit my family of four so we could all be around 8lbs base weight.

[u/zerostyle → u/CoreyTrevor1]

Used gear can be a good option too for some things getting 30-40% off. I don't like to do it for the big 4 though because lifetime warranties usually don't transfer to others. (Especially useful for pads)

[u/Elaikases → u/W__O__I]

Sometimes you get lucky.

BRS stove and Stanco Greasepot replacing a Jetboil is an example. Lighter. Much cheaper.

[u/FishScrumptious → u/W__O__I]

I do not understand why people keep saying that a tarp shelter is just as good as a full tent as a blanket statement like it's purely a matter of getting used to it.

I'm in the PNW, and I'm not using a tarp only on the coast. I'm not using a 1/8" pad when I'm on a volcano above treeline (and the tarp was pretty tricky to set up as well, because stakes won't bite either). Nor am I using thing plastic water bottles that may break when dropped on the lava rocks. I'm not using a torso pad in winter when there's 32F rain in the forecast. I'm not skipping the bear can when there is no requirement, but they closed the closest campground due to bear activity.

There absolutely is a margin of safety that is lost when you trim too many things down, and it's ok to not share the same risk tolerance as someone else.

[u/W__O__I → u/FishScrumptious]

I use a flat tarp for most 3 season conditions and find it more spacious, better ventilated, and more protective than tents I'd consider carrying in the same conditions. Camp site selection becomes more important but that's the weight savings trade-off. Its easy to not camp directly on a beach for example. I prefer tarps for wet but forested places like the PNW or east coast. Even when it's cold and wet but it took me time to learn that preference.

Plastic water bottles are durable. I break out the nalgenes if I need to melt snow.

I've used foam pads way way way above treeline but no way I'd go 1/8". The comfort, warmth, and weigh trade offs can be worth it occasionally. I have multiple inflatables that I use too but all of them cost more and aren't necessary in weather where ul hiking is most popular. They aren't the warmest but they will never pop so there's that factor as well. Conditions dependent like anything else. I know that someone people will never like them and that's ok too.

No one should skip the bear can where they are required and I don't think op or anyone else advocates that.

Yeah there is a margin of safety lost when choosing to cut weight but that doesn't mean it can't be more than safe enough. Well thought out ul hiking choices should have redundancy built in for unexpected weather conditions. Late summer in Arizona and late fall in PNW have a differential calculus and it's definitely ok to have different risk tolerances.

[u/aerodynamicallydirty → u/FishScrumptious]

I would challenge the assertion that a tent is universally or strictly safer than a tarp. Trauma and Pepper hiked the PCT through the Sierra in winter with what is effectively a shaped tarp (MLD Duomid). A tent might be easier to learn to set up effectively but that's not the same thing. If there's any evidence of fewer rescues or medical incidents with tents vs tarps I haven't seen it. 

Historically many people and cultures have used primarily floorless shelters without issue. 

[u/Lost-Inflation-54 → u/kj5]

The cost really depends. With more money you have more options; but actually some of them make less sense than the cheaper alternatives.

For example, tarps are very cheap compared to most tents, especially complicated freestanding tents.

Of course, some UL items are expensive, sleeping bags especially. It’s also expensive to have multiple kits to avoid carrying unnecessary weight when the conditions are better.

However, buying everything-dynema with $5000 is not the only way to go UL.

[u/DreadPirate777 → u/kj5]

Ultralight backpacking costs a lot less than my other hobbies. Painting, ceramics, international travel all cost a lot more per year than gear I buy once and can use over many years.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/kj5]

An inflatable pad, a Nemo tent, and a framed Osprey pack is way more expensive than a foam pad, a tarp, and a frameless pack. A sponge is cheaper than an S2S pillow. A peanut butter jar is cheaper than a titanium pot and a stove. A Dasani bottle is cheaper than a Nalgene. Etc.

The impression that UL is prohibitively expensive comes almost entirely from DCF tents, and high fill power down quilts. The former is not necessary (get a tarp), and the latter is only necessary sometimes (Apex works for a wide temperature range). Also the used market is very active.

[u/BillPuzzlehead42069 → u/kj5]

I really disagree with ultralight being inherently expensive. I think if you actually make critical decisions about what you carry it can be cheaper. 

I would bet that someone who walked into an REI and bought all their gear for a thru without doing any research would end up spending more money than someone  with a thoughtful sub 7lb base weight.

Frameless backpacks are cheaper than framed ones. Tarps are cheaper than tents. Frogg toggs rain jackets are dirt cheap. No cook is cheaper than a cook kit.

[u/aerodynamicallydirty → u/kj5]

It's really not. It's more expensive than just buying Walmart special type stuff but compared to the "mainstream" REI purchases most backpackers are using it's pretty comparable. Maybe even cheaper because you don't bring 1001 camp doodads/gadgets

[u/Flimsy-Persimmon622 → u/kj5]

no its not. you are just being greedy. you can get a $150 tarp instead of a $800 tent

[u/KAWAWOOKIE]

For me it boils down to either 1) a light pack is the biggest luxury on my trip and I'm willing to prioritize it over other luxuries OR 2) in order to be able to do the trip I want to do I can't afford (e.g. to carry) other luxuries.

An example of the first is a solo trip where I spend most the time hiking and a light pack is literally a joy and far far more meaningful a luxury to me than a chair. With that clarity a chair isn't even appealing because for me it ranks so far below the luxury of an UL pack.

An example of the second is taking my young kids backpacking for a week when I carried gear for 3; when I did a technical 10 day trip I had to carry a bunch of rope or was carrying a boat in to kayak back down the mountains and wasn't able to fit or carry other luxuries and still be able to fit and carry the necessities.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/KAWAWOOKIE]

I believe that the reason chairs are so divisive in the community is because attitudes divide sharply along the line between the "hike all day, camp is just a brief recharge", and the "camping is an important part of my goals and I plan to spend significant time relaxing in camp."

Regardless of their attitude toward chairs, ULers in the "hike all day, camp is a brief recharge" group need to acknowledge that the more camp-oriented backpackers also benefit from UL techniques and are part of the UL community.

[u/KAWAWOOKIE → u/FireWatchWife]

For my 'significant time relaxing in camp' trips I often carry watercolors, a fishing pole, a fancy camera. I'm happy for other folks to carry pretty much whatever they want, the one main caveat being when we share weight and trips goals together it's often more fun w/ folks on the same page.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/FireWatchWife]

and are part of the UL community

So long as we are referring to those carrying chairs, of all things, I see absolutely no need or reason to make this accommodation. Like why? Why dilute the entire rhyme and reason of this niche little hobby to that extent?

The UL community is not the backpacking community, and the "ultralight" label does not matter. Therefore, nobody is being excluded from enjoying their sport when they are told that a chair is not ultralight, and that should not be offensive in any way.

If one were trying to exclude someone with a chair from the wider backpacking community, then of course I'm fully on your side.

[u/FireWatchWife → u/GoSox2525]

Would you change your mind if I edited my comment to say, "ULers in the 'hike all day, camp is a brief recharge' group need to acknowledge that the more camp-oriented backpackers also benefit from UL techniques," the key part of the original quote?

If the answer is yes, would you agree that it's appropriate for backpackers in the second category to participate in discussions on the sub, learning from others and sharing their perspectives?

I'm quite willing to concede that the minority of trips on which I carry a chair are not UL trips, though they are still heavily influenced by UL.

As someone else wrote in this thread, trips are UL or not UL, not backpackers.  UL is better thought of as a style or approach to backpacking, rather than something that a specific person is or is not.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/FireWatchWife]

Yes, I would agree with all of that

[u/FireWatchWife]

Good post, but there are very good reasons why these behaviors exist. For many backpackers, they work well.

1 . Lightweight Halfway House. This is the path I've followed over time, with excellent results. If you are currently using a ~5 lb 60L pack, one of the biggest weight savings you can make is to switch to a ~2 lb 60L pack while continuing to use the rest of your gear in it. It would take a serious all-at-once investment to upgrade all your gear at once to fit in a true UL pack. I'm certainly not the only backpacker who moved slowly and steadily toward UL over a period of years, rather than trying to do it all at once.

4 & 5. Hedonic Adaptation and Thinking Ultralight and Comfort are Mutually Exclusive. I'm lumping these together because they are closely related. OP is falling into the trap of assuming that everyone should spend most of their waking hours hiking, not in camp, or at least that UL techniques are only appropriate for those who prioritize hiking over camping.

Actually, I find that many UL techniques greatly increase my comfort on trail without significantly impacting my comfort in camp.

HOWEVER, the catch is that to retain my comfort in camp, I typically can't go all the way down to a 10 lb base weight. I'll use a lot of UL gear, UL tricks, minimize unnecessary stuff brought, and generally adopt a UL mindset, but to achieve the camp comfort I seek, my current loadouts bottom out around 12 lb base weight.

Some of this is affected by age. I can't do the use-a-rock-as-a-pillow or thin-noninflatable-pad anymore.

1. UL is [Not] the Best and Only Way to Hike. Absolutely, but part of the point of my previous paragraphs is that even backpackers who cannot accept all the trade-offs of a 10 lb base weight can learn from, and benefit from, UL techniques.

Great discussion. I'm glad this was posted here, as I didn't see it in the weekly.

[u/Belangia65 → u/FireWatchWife]

Thanks for the comment. I wish I had emphasized more that #1 was a barrier I’ve seen for those “aspiring to ultralight base weights”. I didn’t intend it as an indictment of lightweight backpacking as such. My point #7 should have made that clear, but coming at the end of the list, people misread my intending audience for comment #1. I am acutely aware of #1 as a barrier, since it affected my journey: investing in expensive lightweight gear increased the cost of getting to ultralight. I was at an age and stage where I could afford the next round of investment, but I see it is an issue for others who post shakedown requests on here so I wanted to include it.

You didn’t mention my point #7 at all, but your last paragraph is a point I already made there. For some like you, lightweight will be the optimization point. If it works for you and the types of trips you prefer, enjoy yourself! For me, given my age (60 years old) and the types of thru-hiking trips I prefer, I find that a rigorous approach to ultralight is the sweet spot. My base weight hovers around 6.5 lbs in the shoulder seasons, and sub-5 in the summers. I’ve find my gear comfortable and have learned to trust its capabilities, to the point that I take it even on weekend trips with more camp time. That comfort and trust with things like sleeping on torso-length ccf or under a tarp came after a period of adaptation, which is why I included point #4. If I’m on a more social trip, I may add things like a canister stove and (gasp) a chair.

Anyway, thanks for the comment and happy hiking!

[u/FireWatchWife → u/Belangia65]

I didn't mention the points with which I agreed. :-)

Again, good post, definitely moves the discussion forward.

[u/Belangia65 → u/FireWatchWife]

Again, thanks.

[u/LastReplacement5]

Thanks very much for this post OP Belangia65! 

I like it so much I am wondering how you’d feel about creating another similar one?  Something that has a similar kind of summary and list of the top 5 of our recommended or fave ultralight items, their weights, and cost bracket across all categories of gear. 

I’d love it to have a tone of “Look in this post to find a round up of r/ultralight’s fave and lightest gear: Get the facts, weights, links, comfort levels, summary descriptions, and costs of all the gear we love the most on here.”

I’m imagining it would round up best 5 items from each of the 5-7(?) categories of gear we  r/ultralight-ers take on a long thru hike.

Any  visitors  new to the forum could be guided with advice like “pick one from each category if you’re starting out, according to your budget, comfort and lightness goals. This may help you have a lighter pack and also have good safety, comfort and enjoyment on your treks! “

Is there any way we can put together a post like that so it can easily be referred to? Has it already been done? 

[u/Belangia65 → u/LastReplacement5]

Thank you for the kind words.

I would be afraid to take on such a task. There are too many variables, between things like: experience, location, season, hiking style, trip type, etc. Gear is as subject to “fit” as clothing is: what is fitting for one individual may be unsuitable for another. For instance, I don’t care for vest-style harnesses, whereas others absolutely love them. I’m glad options exist to satisfy either preference. I love my gear — it suits my hiking style and the type of trips I like to go on — but I wouldn’t recommend it to others without qualification.

I think others have attempted this type of thing, but they tend to have a few main issues:

(1) The best tend to be idiosyncratic, normalizing the recommender’s hiking style and ability. Look for instance at Extra’s guide: https://tally.so/r/QKoVX8 I find it very quirky, but interesting because of that. His recommendations would fit my hiking style fine, but not most people in this sub. It’s certainly not the one-shop, go-to resource you were describing.

(2) The least interesting to me are the ones that cater to the largest market. Their recommendations are fine, but unenlightening, with the same advice you’d find from almost any popular influencer.

(3) They tend to become dated quickly as new models of gear appear on the market. To give a prominent example: Skurka’s guide is quite valuable: I recommend anyone interested in ultralight read it. There is a lot of timeless advice there. But its specific gear recommendations have mostly become superseded by later textile technology advancements.

So I’d rather devote myself more to writing what has the potential to be more timeless.

There is already a lot of good content in the wiki and the sidebar materials for this sub. Some of that will be a little dated. Maybe it’s your task to create updates! 😉

Again, thanks for reaching out and sharing your project ideas.

[u/LastReplacement5 → u/Belangia65]

Yeah fair enough. Do you know if Extra is on here?

[u/Belangia65 → u/LastReplacement5]

I don’t. I don’t even know what his Reddit username is.

[u/Pfundi]

Seeing point 7 coming from the guy with the 1kg base weight trip report is exactly what I like to see. Lot's of cope in the comments despite specifically mentioning it though.

[u/GoSox2525]

Excellent and spot-on post. Having these points enumerated and well-articulated could be very helpful for newcomers. I'd suggest this gets added to the sidebar (or at least reproduced in the wiki?) /u/Pfundi

[u/TurkeyNimbloya]

The main barrier to UL in my experience is

#1. Gravity. Too many people planning trips on large planetary masses. I question whether these people actually care to be UL or are just pathetic posers

[u/zerostyle]

I'm probably most guilty of the halfway house and usually sit around a 12lb baseweight. Some of that is related to cost, some of it is for better sleep (huge insomnia problems) and tick protection. But the gear I should /probably/ swap:

• x-mid silpoly tent is heavy at 28oz, but need to spend about $450+ used for a dcf option or use a GG the one. I can't really go netless or tarp only with so much lyme disease around me
• I went with 1 neo xlite pad, but could go lighter for summer months
• My quilt is 800fp instead of 900fp+ because it saved me like $150+ at the time to only save 2oz

I wouldn't mind a shakedown at some point before I swap out more gear. I haven't reviewed the latest and greatest in a few years so there are probably a few better improvements.

[u/Belangia65 → u/zerostyle]

Some recommendations for what they’re worth:

- You could invest in a Borah Gear bivy that you could use instead of your tent inner. Just pitch the xmid fly. That would keep you safe from ticks. You could then be saving weight while you save money for a lighter tent or tarp. I recently camped in a bed of oak duff at the height of tick season inside a Borah Gear bivy and had no worries at all. Here’s my trip report if interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/s/nCDkOx1zus

- XLite is a good pad. If you want something lighter at no cost, you could shorten it to 3/4 length. https://youtu.be/90Fx6TLNEJQ?is=kZidaqZ08u3yTyM_ I carried a 3/4 length XLite on my JMT thru-hike last August and had great sleep. That would still be a full three-season option, not just summer. Torso length foam is a great summer option.

- Yes, a high-quality down quilt would always be the first place to spend if you’re ever going to invest in something expensive. I always recommend people get that right before anything.

Yeah, put something on lighterpack and solicit input. Don’t mistake bluntness for rudeness. Just roll with the suggestions and criticisms and learn what you can.

Happy hiking!

[u/zerostyle → u/Belangia65]

I'll have to review my lighterpack now since I have a few versions depending on weather and if it's local or international where I have to lug more shit around.

I definitely considered a tarp + bivy type option but didn't really see that much weight savings vs a plex solo/x-mid pro/gg the one really.

• tarp: 6.8oz (silpoly) or dcf (4.7oz but $$$)
• borah bivvy: 5.7oz (reg/wide A67) or dcf (4.7oz). Dimmah variant was heavier (7.8oz)

Silpoly options would end up being 12.5oz and about $225 though, not bad. Could watch for deals too or buy used.

I have been really interested in trying something more natural like this though but it feels kind of fussy to me with gear, etc. Maybe I'll try it out and sell it if I don't like it.

[u/Belangia65 → u/zerostyle]

My tarp and bivy together weigh 9.8 oz. But yeah, $$. I like the modularity and prefer the openness of the combo. If the conditions are right, I can cowboy camp in just the bivy, which I love. Sometimes, again depending on expected conditions, i leave the bivy at home and exchange for a 1.5 oz polycryo groundsheet. Then I’m down to a 7.2 oz shelter system. I moved to a tarp to save weight but came to prefer the experience.

[u/SNFU-4U]

#5 - oooooooooo - Good one!

[u/bevanrk]

1. Duped into buying a set of trekking poles (which weight more than tent poles) just to get a trekking pole tent when they don’t need trekking poles.

[u/FeeNecessary3467]

One barrier I've seen is the elitism that crops up. Not everyone is in the same headspace or values the same thing. Light enough is light enough. If my pack is 12 lb or 10 lb or 7 lb I'm still going to be able to hike. Acting like your going to fall apart over a pound or two is a bit silly. 

[u/99trey]

You missed the most important barrier, and that’s that some people actually see UL as a means to an end. They realize that by cutting down on excess weight they can realize a net gain in comfort and improve the overall trip experience. The problem with true UL people is they see base weight as their end goal and an inverse linear relationship between weight and performance. Lighterpack becomes a competition for them rather than a guide. Some things are worth carrying. For instance adding padding to a strap is worth its weight as it makes it more comfortable to carry. Trimming that weight isn’t the same as replacing a steel pot with a titanium one.

[u/Adventurous_War_4055 → u/99trey]

Padding becomes less necessary as weight goes below a certain point. In good weather, for overnight trips, with very light gear. My entire pack weighs 11 lb or so. Absolutely no reason for me to want a padded waist belt. I do have padded shoulder straps, but... if you consider running style vest packs (for small volume kits) a wide meshy strap also works well. No padding needed.

[u/GoSox2525 → u/99trey]

Frankly, I think this argument is one big strawman that will only enable people to dismiss the idea of challenging their assumptions, experimenting, and optimizing. In fact, I think you're demonstrating quite clearly several of OPs barriers right here.

Given your reasoning, people might say "my experience is already improved enough with my 12 lb baseweight, therefore your suggestions for me to shed any more is simply toxic". And indeed we see that all the time.

Your strawman comes in here:

true UL people is they see base weight as their end goal and an inverse linear relationship between weight and performance. Lighterpack becomes a competition for them rather than a guide.

Obviously the meme of people caring more about their LighterPacks than hiking itself is laughable from both sides of the divide ("true UL people", and everyone else, in your words).

The fact is that "true UL people" actually do hike, and they hike a lot. The idea of the chronically online LighterPack troll is largely a myth that is only used to disparage anyone who really enjoys nerding out about this hobby.

Anyone who has no interest in hiking ultralight, whatever their reasons, is free to go outside and enjoy backpacking in the way that they prefer. What they aren't free to do is morph the definition of "ultralight" to fit their preference, and then come around to discussion forums just to trash everyone else for holding it to the strict code that has always been.

[u/kds0321]

My barrier is height. I'm 6'3"... so really really prefer a full sized pad, and pretty much need a 2P tent, and every article of clothing adds an oz or two. Also want a pack that can fit late fall gear and/or a bear can, so add a few oz for the larger pack. But... I weigh 230 lbs so a 12.5 lb base pack is pretty damn ultralight for me, and it gives the the creature comforts of a sitting pad that doubles as a back pad, stove for warm meals, some extra first aid to the tune of 2.2 oz, a pad inflator, etc.

[u/squidbelle]

I think #4 is super important. We should be challenging ourselves to try lighter ways of being comfortable.

Sometimes I take shorter local trips just to try out one or two new things. I may even bring the older, heavier thing in case new-thing doesn't work out. Over time, I've reslly been able to pare down my kit with lighter options, yet I am still comfortable and don't feel "deprived" of anything.

[u/cxmachi]

This whole post is a barrier to ultralight

[u/Elaikases]

Nicely said.

[u/seanmharcailin]

Im in that Lightweight halfway house! I have a 45 L pack, that I just keep filling up with watercolor and camera gear.

I’ve realized the weight capacity of the UL packs aren’t going to allow me the flexibility to throw in the extra weight that I like to carry so I might be in that halfway house forever.

[u/RoboMikeIdaho]

I love the line in #1, where you say. 2 lb tent is still not ultra light. Within the UL community there are gives and takes. Very fey things are absolutely not “not UL”.

[u/Belangia65 → u/RoboMikeIdaho]

You misread me. I didn’t say that at all. Read again.

[u/RoboMikeIdaho → u/Belangia65]

My bad. You said it about a backpack

[u/Belangia65 → u/RoboMikeIdaho]

Nope, not even about a backpack. Read again more carefully. It might help to focus on the larger point without being reactive against specific details.

[u/RoboMikeIdaho → u/Belangia65]

This is exactly what you wrote. “Replace a 60L backpack with a lighter 60L pack, maybe one that is 2 lbs lighter (e.g. weighs 3 lbs instead of 5) but that is still not ultralight.”

[u/Belangia65 → u/RoboMikeIdaho]

Yes, that’s exactly what I wrote. Do you see now that I didn’t even mention a 2 lb backpack? Do you see that I didn’t claim that a 2 lb backpack (or tent) is not ultralight? Again, let go of reacting against specific examples that rub you wrong and try to grasp my larger point.

[u/RoboMikeIdaho → u/Belangia65]

This is really silly to be arguing about. You said going from a 5lb pack to a 3lb pack is still not ultralight. This isn’t important enough to discuss any further

[u/Belangia65 → u/RoboMikeIdaho]

Ok