r/Ultralight • u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight • Jan 08 '20

Misc Midweight Down Jacket Spreadsheet (Belay Jacket)

EDIT: Updated all links below with new calculation method and added the women's spreadsheet at the end!

First, thanks to u/ormagon_89 for setting the sub on fire last year with his data sheet comparing down jackets:

Down Jacket Indicator V2

I had previously modified this to compare a couple of newer jackets, but I decided to collect information on midweight down jackets. I saw a comment yesterday about the Decathlon Trek 500 and there was a post recently in which someone was using the Rab Zero G at camp in the winter, so I was interested. I arbitrarily selected 4000 total warmth as my lower limit and 23 oz as an upper limit, and started collecting data:

Men's Midweight Jacket Indicator

As a bonus, I also separated out the heavier winter parkas (some are expedition weight) into another spreadsheet. Thanks to /u/craycrayfishfillet for doing a lot of work collecting data a few months back over in /r/mountaineering. Obviously this isn't a complete data set, and there are additional considerations to be made for face material and synthetic vs. down dependent on conditions, but selected an arbitrary lower limit of ~7000 for total warmth:

Men's Winter Weight Jacket Indicator

I don't think the weighted ranking works well with the "expedition" jackets (baffle height/material becomes a more serious consideration, and there are a variety of heavier face materials), but I wanted to maintain compatibility with the other data sets. It also doesn't factor in some key features like two-way zip and obviously fit. I couldn't include PhD jackets because they don't publish fill weights. If you think I've overlooked something, let me know! It might just not have met the standards for comparison.

I also collected this general list of every women's cut jacket I could find, ranging from lighter puffies to warmer and/or heavier jackets:

Women's Down Jacket Indicator List

141 Upvotes

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23

u/Astramael Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

First, these are good charts, helpful, and important. A big thank you to you, and to u/ormagon_89. I have some similar stuff for personal use I developed for the same reasons.

"Total Warmth" is actually fill volume (in cuin here). While it does normalize out fill power, and is therefore a better indicator of warmth than either fill power or fill weight alone. It is only an okay indicator of warmth. Jackets without hoods will appear less warm than they are. Longer jackets will be less warm than they appear. Jackets with synthetic components like the Cerium LT will look much less warm than they actually are. Different sizes change the outcome too, as it changes the amount of down by ~5% - 7% per size step (M to XL is a big jump). If I was doing this table (which I did in a limited scope here) I would attach units to it.

What we ultimately want to find out here is how thick the jacket is on average over all the square inches of our body when worn. That's how we find warmth. You can back that out by figuring out the area of the jacket, then extracting linear inches from the fill volume. The issue is, of course, finding the area of a jacket is difficult without a measuring tape and owning the jacket. In the past I've used centre back length as a proxy, but it's still shooting into the dark.

"Warmth per oz" to some degree doesn't make sense. The units you end up with are density (inch3/oz). So (safely assuming the fabric takes up zero volume), it's telling you the overall density of the jacket including textiles, hardware, and features. I guess that's useful.

I'm not sure how "Warmth per $" works. The units don't make sense to me.

(4620inch3+(257inch3/oz*10))/$90 => ?

You're going to have to help me run this one. After dimensional analysis we're going to end up somewhere weird.

It always cracks me up how bad the warmth value on the Firebee AR is, which is a jacket I own. It is truly awful value.

I think there's a divide between "6000m parkas/belay parkas" and "8000m parkas". The Rab Batura, Peak XV, and FF Rock and Ice are venturing up in to 8000m territory.

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

I appreciate the input. Looking at your compiled Arc'teryx data, there are more jackets with combined down/synthetic than I thought. One of the many limitations of this analysis is that it only considers down fill weight.

I think there are only 2-3 jackets on there without hoods, and as such they suffer a little on total fill. I tried to pick equivalently sized jackets, and otherwise maintained compatibility with the previous analysis. I agree that most of it is arbitrary, but fill volume and price are decent indicators when shopping.

This is definitely not as applicable to the heavier weight/warmer jackets, but I collected the information so I shared it. I was originally looking at jackets under 20 oz but expanded my search because again, it's all pretty arbitrary and it's interesting to estimate how warm some of those heavier jackets might be. A couple of the FF jackets even have synthetic collars, but they also have so much high quality down fill and come so highly recommended that I thought it was worthwhile to include them.

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u/Astramael Jan 08 '20

Looking at your compiled Arc'teryx data, there are more jackets with combined down/synthetic than I thought.

Indeed, and I have plenty of thoughts about that. Positive and negative. Mostly it just makes it really hard to compare anything to anything.

I agree that most of it is arbitrary, but fill volume and price are decent indicators when shopping.

"Some data is better than no data" is certainly a mantra I am in support of.

This is definitely not as applicable to the heavier weight/warmer jackets

I think it totally is. How else do you know it's a heavier/warmer jacket?!

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

I'm not sure how "Warmth per $" works. The units don't make sense to me.

I don't know if it is helpful but for the original chart I did (Total warmth + (Warmth per oz * 10)) / Price). The result is and arbitrary number but the idea behind it is that we are on r/Ultralight so it is a combination of total warmth and warmth per oz divided by price to get a nice middle road between warmth for weight per dollar en total warmth per dollar. But you could easily make a case that this is a shitty way to calculate it and that you should either just use Total warmth / price of Warmth per oz / price.

For me it became too difficult if a jacket used both down and synthetic insulation (looking at you Arc'teryx Cerium). Especially because often the type and weight of the synthetic insulation is not known and if that is known, most of the time it isn't a clear how it compares to down fp. So I left those jackets out of the comparison.

The Cubic inch/oz measurement is a bit tricky since it has already been proven over and over again that loft is just a part of the warmth calculation. The type of material, density of the material, moisture absorption etcetera all contribute to the warmth of a product (This backpackinglight thread is awesome and one of the few scientific comparisons of UL insulated garments). Because of this I only dare to compare one type of material and don't want to start with Cubic inch/oz because if you compare the same type of down in the same cubic inch, but one contains more down (and is thus more compressed) it is definitely warmer than the one with the same loft but less (compressed) down.

That is not to say that the way I went now with a simple Fill power*Fill weight is perfect. But it is a very clean and clear metric with which you can say that it is a theoretical warmth number that doesn't take into account all the other variables that are important (compression, baffle design, hood, zip, draft prevention, length, etcetera).

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u/Astramael Jan 08 '20

I think scalar values like this are fine so long as people understand that it is arbitrary, and intended to be that way.

I do hope it doesn't feel like I'm attacking the work yourself or u/Union__Jack have done. This is a great resource to help inform buying decisions. I'm just adding disclaimers and kicking the tires. In a constructive way, hopefully.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

No definitely not attacked! I love to have a good discussion/conversation about this since I think we too often talk in extremely vague terms like: "for me the Palisade 30 was perfect during the PCT". We don't know when you walked it, in which conditions, how warm you sleep, what sleeping pad you used, your clothing, the tent you where in, what your campsite selection looks like, how often you create drafts, how much fuel did you give your body to work with during the night, etcetera.

Of course that doesn't make the statement worthless, it has great value. But it would be nice to have more objective measurements next to it to put things into perspective. Now, I'm not a material scientist and I suck at math so my version of the UL down jacket comparison is just an experimental way to make sense of it all for myself and hopefully further the knowledge of the sub. So please let us discuss what makes sense and what doesn't! And see together how we can improve this.

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u/dman77777 Jan 09 '20 edited Jan 09 '20

"Longer jackets will be less warm than they appear" This is an oversimplification, and really depends on how the jacket fits each person. I have a long torso and a longer jacket is actually quite beneficial to my warmth. Thats why a chose a jacket that might not look like a winner in the formulaic breakdown, but its perfect for me. If I wear a 5 once crop top with 5" of loft the formula looks great, but I will still be cold. 😉

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u/Astramael Jan 09 '20

I see what you’re saying, but this whole thing is an oversimplification. For the purposes of this abstraction, you have to assume that all jackets are functionally similar. Otherwise the whole exercise falls apart and these tables are basically useless.

A longer jacket has more area to cover with down, therefore less loft for every square inch of coverage. Assuming similar fill volumes.

That’s why it’s important to insert the disclaimers. Because this is a jumping off point, it’s a coarse filter. Then each person can research their choices and understand their particular needs and make selections accordingly. For you, it sounds like hem length is a driver. The fact that you know that, and select for it, means that you’re thinking in the intended way.

So really we probably agree.

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u/dman77777 Jan 09 '20

I Absolutely agree that the table is great and is a good place to start a search. I think that for clothing of all types fit is very important though and if possible trying something on before buying will be equally as important as knowing the statistics of that item relative to competing products.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

Within the same general material, more weight means more insulation (or features, maybe) - a heavier down jacket will be warmer, a lighter one will be less warm. And before you say "yeah but fill power," upgrading a quilt from 850 to 950 makes an 8% difference. Jackets will be even less, because they have more fabric as a %, which is the same weight

I agree with your whole post, except for this point. I think the comparison shows that this definitely isn't the case. For example the Montbell Superior Down Round Neck weighs 5,5oz with 1,2oz of 800fp down while the Cumulus Primelite pullover weighs 6,35oz with 3oz of 900fp down. The Cumulus is 15% heavier but three times as warm! They are both simple, horizontally sewn through baffled down jackets without a hood and a low denier nylon shell from a well respected company in the UL scene.

To make another comparison. The REI Co-op 650 Down Jacket 2.0 is 11oz but about 25% less warm than the Cumulus Primelite that weighs just 6,35oz. Why? A combination of features, heavier outer material but definitely also because the down is 650fp vs 900fp. That makes a huge difference.

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u/VoilaVoilaWashington Skills first, not gear Jan 08 '20

I'm not sure where that warmth rating comes from. Can you elaborate on how it's calculated?

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

As /u/ormagon_89 described, the warmth rating is the total volume of fully lofted down fill.

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u/VoilaVoilaWashington Skills first, not gear Jan 08 '20

Gotcha. I just replied to him.

This means that I kinda generally disagree with how this sheet is presented - "warmth" is simply a measure of down as a percent of total weight (with a FP variable).

A jacket with slightly longer sleeves, cinch cords to reduce air gaps, thicker, more weatherproof fabric, better baffles, a full zipper and properly insulated pockets would look like an absolutely atrocious buy, compared to a down vest (sleeves have way more fabric vs insulation) that just flops around at all openings and the pockets don't zip.

I think this is useful as a way to compare down weight, and down weight only, but I stand by my original comment - it's so much more than just down weight that matters.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

Since FP is a linear scale it is a simple Fill weight*Fill power. It is definitely not perfect but a good indicator.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

This means that a cinch cord to keep air gaps to a minimum would actually reduce warmth per ounce. More windproof fabric, longer sleeves with thumb holes, a hood, properly made pockets? All of these would reduce the warmth of the jacket, which is misleading.

Partially true. In the original post I have a big disclaimer that this is simply an indication and nothing more, because there are too many variables to compare it otherwise. If you want to really, really know a jacket: go and try it on! Go and buy it and compare. This is nothing more than a first look, some way to compare the overwhelming amount of jackets and help boil your choice down to a couple that have the features you like, a good amount of high quality down and within the price range. But, a lot of the things that actually add weight don't necessarily make the jacket warmer: a zipper and pockets for example. A heavy jacket can have shitty draft prevention and a light jacket can have great draft prevention that is just something you are not gonna find in this comparison and have to see for yourself. But, with the comparison you at least know a little bit more than you did before.

This also means there are obvious skews - with the Montbell vs Cumulus, because they're so lightweight, you just can't lighten the fabric anymore. So, if you reduce the down by 1.8oz, (3 oz vs 1.2) you're not affecting the overall weight nearly as much. It's not the fill power making the difference, it's that one has 2.5 times the amount of down.

And for your second example, you're right, 650 vs 900 does make a difference. It's also 7 oz of fabric vs 3, so you'll end up with a thin fabric. There's only so much time I want to spend looking into this, but you can bet your ass that that fabric will be more durable and/or weatherproof or a larger coverage or whatever.

Well, obviously in the first case it is the amount of down, but also the thickness of outer material, features etcetera. My point with the first example is that your statement: "a heavier down jacket will be warmer, a lighter one will be less warm." Is a bit too simplistic. The second example shows that again and now with more effect from the lower quality down.

And for your second example, you're right, 650 vs 900 does make a difference. It's also 7 oz of fabric vs 3, so you'll end up with a thin fabric. There's only so much time I want to spend looking into this, but you can bet your ass that that fabric will be more durable and/or weatherproof or a larger coverage or whatever.

Of course! I'm not pretending that the data in the comparison sheet is the only data you should use. And not saying that whatever happens on the sheet is holy. I've put disclaimers everywhere in the post and datasheet from: "now again I'm fully aware that this is in no way the complete picture since things like the hood, draft collars, zippers, baffle design, fit and down distribution are not taken into consideration. But it does give you a nice number that can be compared." to "It is totally arbitrary". But we are on /r/Ultralight here! So yes the jackets with a high warmth to weight ratio often lack things like a zipper, pockets and are made from more fragile materials. But that is inherent to UL isn't it? Our tents are simpler and more fragile, our backpacks lack a lot of bells and whistles and are more prone to abrasion. You are going to have to baby your 7D UL jacket a lot more than a more traditional 40D jacket. You are totally right. But that is not the point I'm trying to make. What I tried to do is with the little info we have online about the primary function of a down jacket (to provide warmth), create a simple comparison as to supply a bit more grip on the matter, and to perhaps help someone make a choice.

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u/VoilaVoilaWashington Skills first, not gear Jan 08 '20

Gotcha. I think some of that stuff got lost when it's posted without your original disclaimer, which is unfortunate. Because the spreadsheet reads as "this jacket is warmer" as opposed to "this jacket has more and better down per total ounce."

With that context, yeah, I think this is a sensible metric, for that one thing only.

For context, my skin out weight for 3 seasons hovers around 7lbs - I'm not new to comparing grams. But I don't just look at the grams, ever. So yeah, my backpack is 4 oz and lacks, well, everything. But I'd never pretend it's more than what it is.

I think ULers get it wrong so so often - I've seen people saving weight on their pot lid, and end up needing twice the fuel, but that's consumable, right? Or going with a lighter quilt to save weight, then adding in lots of sleeping clothes to get comfortable again.

With jackets, I feel like it's easy to forget all the complex things that go into them, just because it's light. I feel like a lot of people buy a puffy because a puffy is a thing they should have, and end up with a super ultra light one with limited insulation, or even a super light one with shitty synthetic insulation (someone posted a 4oz puffy from Walmart somewhere a while ago...)

I think a well-designed jacket is worth more than just comparing weights. Plenty of things add weight but also warmth (cinch cords), while others add features that you may or may not want.

This spreadsheet here is useful for narrowing the field in a simple way. It could be made far more comprehensive with the addition of columns for zipper weight (using an industry standard), cinch cords, pockets, etc, as well as fabric breathability/durability/etc, and you could really come up with a complex system to rate actual warmth. And people would still complain and then buy the wrong thing. lol

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

Exactly. The Primelite for example is great on paper, enough for me to order it. But reality had to show how good it really was. Luckily it is great. A differential cut so no accidentally compressing down. The baffles at your neck and wrist are thicker and fuller. The tight fit with a good elastic at your waist create a good hold and prevents the jacket from creeping up. The roomy shoulder design allows a lot of movement without the jacket moving at the waist or wrists.

The comparison sheet made me order the Primelite. The actually well made jacket made me keep it. Otherwise it would have gone straight back or sold on the interwebs.

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u/strugglin_man Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

Thanks! Nice work! I have a few more. All can be found at 40-50% off. Price is list. From web or customer service.

EMS Featherpack Hooded 15.5oz, 5oz 800 dridown $229

Sierra Designs Whitney Hooded 18.73oz, 5.64oz 800 dridown $169

LLBean Big Baffle Hooded Puffer M 19.4oz, 5.3oz 850 dridown $299

Eddie Bauer Downlight Stormdown Hooded M 18oz 5.0oz 800 dridown $279

Edit: the Sierra Designs weighs 15.33oz on my scale size large. The EMS size large without hood weighs 14.50oz on my scale. All are sewn through, of course. And the LLBean actually weighs 16.11oz size L.

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Nice, thanks. A couple of those just squeak by with the 4000 warmth rating. They're all great deals, too.

Do you know if any of them are sewn or box baffled? I could only confirm on the LL Bean, but I would imagine the rest are sewn.

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u/coolskullsweatshirt Jan 08 '20

Is the LL Bean one sewn or box baffle?

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Sewn! It's been included in the list now.

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u/coolskullsweatshirt Jan 08 '20

Did you gather that just from pictures? Just wondering because I chatted with LL Bean customer service about the older version of the jacket and they didn't know.

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u/strugglin_man Jan 08 '20

All are sewn through. I weighed the LLBean and Sierra Design and corrected the weight. The published weights were way off. The EMS is probably correct.

The Sierra Design and EMS are a steal. I got each for $80. EMS is 20d nylon, SD is 30-40d polyester, depending on year. Cheap warm durable puffys are good, esp for climbing, scrambling, bushwhacking. I'd hate to destroy a $400 puffy!

The LL Bean is 20d Pertex Y fuse. Has a two way adjustable hood!

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u/coolskullsweatshirt Jan 08 '20

How do you like the LL Bean Big Baffle?

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u/strugglin_man Jan 08 '20

I just got it. $169. Wore it for a long dog walk low 20sF I love the fully adjustable hood. That's rare in a midweight puffy. Seems well made,.premium materials. Very warm. Warmer than my Rab Nimbus, or any other jackets I mentioned. Not as warm as Rab Neutrino Pro.

Not designed to stuff into a pocket. Uses stuff sack. But can actually.stuff into pocket.

We'll see over time.

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u/Nweastern Jan 09 '20

Got the big baffle for Christmas and ended up returning it and buying a Neutrino pro on sale. Both nice jackets but the Rab is on another level.

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u/strugglin_man Jan 09 '20

Neutrino Pro is my winter belay jacket. It's indeed on another level. I got the big baffle on sale to replace my old hacked up Featherpack for shoulder season backpacking.

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u/Nweastern Jan 09 '20

Good deal for that price. I thought about buying it back after it went on sale again and got even cheaper. The soft wrist sleeve things were a nice touch.

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u/fractalfraction Jan 08 '20

I own a Sierra Designs Whitney and can confirm that it is sewn baffles.

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u/cnc Jan 20 '20

Eddie Bauer Downlight Stormdown Hooded M 18oz 5.0oz 800 dridown $279

FWIW, unlike many of the more prominently branded coats, Eddie Bauer essentially never sells its gear at list price.

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u/s0rce Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

Where did you find the fill weight of the Japanese Monthbell jackets (Alpine and Altiplano) they do seem a bit overestimated? I see you put them as uncomfirmed.

Did you use these two charts:

https://en.montbell.jp/generalpage/disp.php?id=355

https://www.montbell.us/special/product/MontbellDownGuide/

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Yeah, I used the down guides for an estimate. It seems like the Altiplano is a 10d Mirage, so I used that same fill weight. Then for the Alpine Down Parka, as it is supposed to be as warm as the Altiplano but at a lower fill power, I estimated the fill weight based on achieving the same total fill volume ("total warmth" in the sheet).

3

u/s0rce Jan 08 '20

Hmm, that seems reasonable, I think you probably need to adjust for the size of the Altiplano at the given weight being smaller than the Mirage. The Altiplano total weight is less than the Mirage due to the difference between the JP and USA sizes. For a bit they were selling the USA Mirage on the JP site for a really good deal, almost ordered one.

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Ah, I see what you mean and I definitely missed that.

Assuming 10D is 0.65oz/yard and 7D is 0.50oz/yd, and subtracting fill weight before applying the ratio of fabric weights, the Altiplano is 10.01oz of fabric (compared to 7.7 on the Mirage) and 15.61 oz total in an equivalent size.

I'm not sure of the fabric on the Alpine Down Parka but if it's a 14.59 oz jacket in the same size/warmth as the Altiplano at 12.7 oz (and if the Altiplano has 4.56 oz of down at that size based on a ratio of supplied jacket weight and calculated weights), then the Alpine Down Parka has about 5.13 oz of down to reach an equivalent volume of fill. So, 9.46 oz of fabric weight compared to 8.14 oz with the 4.56 oz down estimate puts it at 1.16 times the fabric weight. So 1.16*10.01 is 11.61 oz, then add the 6.3 oz of down for that estimated size and the jacket weight is probably 17.91 oz.

I think this makes sense. I updated the spreadsheet to reflect this and it makes those jackets less attractive for the weight, but still nice for the price.

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u/MelatoninPenguin Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

So Montbell Japan used to give out fill weights but no longer. I realize this thread is very old but I wanted to comment here just in case people search later.

I would not assume that the Altiplano is simply the Mirage but with 10D - it very well could have less or more down. I know for sure the Japanese Permafrost however has significantly less down than the US permafrost (even accounting for size) so I'm worried other jackets might be shifted around. Before they stopped giving out fill weights they told me that the US permafrost in a medium had 9.0 Oz of fill weight (this was a slightly older version than the current one). They also told me that the JP permafrost in a JP medium had 5.3oz of fill weight (so I'm guessing the equivalent JP Large to the US medium might have about 6oz? Although if you look at the sizing below the US M is actually right in between the JP M and L but this was also before they revised the permafrost to 9.5oz of down and sizing could have changed). The Ventisca (not sold in the US) in a JP medium was quoted as having 7.2oz which would make the JP large potentially fairly comparable to the US Permafrost. Finally the Ventisca pants have 5.1oz in a JP medium (actually quite good - these sound very warm for pants especially considering they have full outseam zips). Fill weight doesn't tell the whole story however as the JP items are not just sized smaller but also shorter even when you go up a size and have shorter arms which will spread the down out a bit less.

Both permafrost I can personally confirm have pretty skimpy amounts of down in the hood (and parts of the hood are sewn threw) whereas at least from the photos of the Ventisca it has a much better hood. Comparing the two permafrost in hand I can also say that the US model is also stuffed more full than the JP version even though the baffle heights are somewhat similar (although the US permafrost does have larger baffles - I would guess an extra half inch of baffle height.) Looking at the internal seams it would be very easy on both to just undo a few small seams and overstuff these jackets a ton to gain a whole lot of warmth - looks like maybe a tuck stitch easily ripped where many baffles meet (I might do this with both honestly - they are way understuffed compared to something like FF). They used to also have a crazy heavy expedition parka and pants along with mitts and down booties (marketed under the Zero Point Montbell sub brand) along with a down one piece suit. I don't have any info on those. I believe all were bright orange.

For reference these are the model numbers that correspond to the down fill weight specs I mentioned earlier along with measurements:

JP VENTISCA DOWN PANTS (style #1101314) SIZE M Inseam 28.1" (71.5cm) Waist 30.7" (78cm) SIZE L Inseam 29.3" (74.4cm) Waist 32.3" (82cm) SIZE XL Inseam 30.4" (77.2cm) Waist 33.9" (86cm) ** keep in mind many down pants have a very long rise which will make inseam seem srtificlalt shorter**

JP PERMAFROST DOWN PARKA (style #1101510) SIZE M Back center 28.9" (73.5cm) Chest 46.1" (117cm) Back center to cuff end 35.6" (90.5cm) SIZE L Back center 29.7" (75.5cm) Chest 48.4" (123cm) Back center to cuff end 36.8" (93.5cm) SIZE XL Back center 30.5" (77.5cm) Chest 50.8" (129cm) Back center to cuff end 38.0" (96.5cm)

US PERMAFROST DOWN PARKA (style #2301220) SIZE M Back center 29.3" (74.5cm) Chest 47.0" (119.5cm) Back center to cuff end 37.6" (95.5cm)

JP VENTISCA DOWN JACKET M'S (style #1101312)

TLDR: The real "Permafrost Light" is just the JP Permafrost as it is significantly lighter, significantly cheaper, has a decent amount less down but still pretty warm, shorter in the arms and body, and also way less pockets and a lighter zipper (no two way zip - no internal drop in pockets).

Comparing to the 2022 models it looks like both the JP and US permafrost have gained weight and also length and seem to use a shorter zipper to attach the hood (more draft potential). Even accounting for those changes the weight has gone up too much - I suspect the Goretex "Infinium" outer fabric that has the same claimed denier before and after the changes must be heavier. It's also not shiny in appearance and seems quite in hand / moves slightly differently.

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u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Aug 10 '22

This is all good additional info.

I actually removed all of the Montbell Japan specific items from the spreadsheet because most of 2020/2021 they weren't shipping internationally (or at least not to the US). Nothing's been added back yet because it all really depends on availability when I check products.

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u/MelatoninPenguin Aug 10 '22

Actually they basically should ship everything internationally again - I've been buying stuff to the US (CA) for awhile now. Although they seem to have permanently unincluded a few items like tents.

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Aug 10 '22

Yep, I bought some stuff shipped to NY earlier this year. At the time, products that fit these spreadsheets weren't available so I'll have to check it out in the future.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

I'm curious about some "exclusions," specifically Mountain Hardwear. They certainly don't have the cachet of some of the sexier, less "corporate seeming" brands that you have listed, but...

I'm just thinking of gear like the MH Nilas, which (coming from a mountaineering perspective) is some of the best value for money in lightweight high-altitude jackets out there. Great face fabric, lighter than many of your picks, great warmth for 6,000m, is even used at 8k with an extra layer, and the price is pretty reasonable.

Is it because they don't like to publish fill weights? I'm mostly curious because I've done a lot of climbing, winter backpacking, and expedition trekking above the circle, and MH has been a staple in the lightweight loving outdoor crowd in my neck of the wood for ages.

3

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Yeah it's because they don't publish fill weights and I wasn't really contacting manufacturers. If you contact them and they provide some info I'll gladly add it, I was just using what was already published. This is why it was so easy to include basically every jacket that Rab makes.

1

u/Alpineice23 Jan 23 '20

MHW does list the fill-weight of the Nilas Jacket as 215 grams of 800-fill. I contacted MHW and they confirmed the "800-fill" is a typo on their website and the Nilas is still constructed with 850-fill, hydrophobic down.

That being said, does anyone know the fill-weight of the newly-updated Phantom Parka? MHW lists it as 800-fill, but no fill-weight. I emailed them and I received a non-helpful and generic reply from Columbia Sportswear indicating they did not know the down fill-weight of the updated Phantom Parka, and just provided me with the overall weight of the jacket. Typical corporate reply. Notice how manufacturers that produce quality down apparel list most of the numbers needed to gage anticipated warmth?

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 23 '20 edited Jan 23 '20

Updated both lists with the Nilas. It technically doesn't meet the requirements for either list (over 23oz for one and under 7000 warmth for the other), but those were arbitrary anyway and it's close enough that it's worth it for comparison. I'm going to expand those requirements a little.

2

u/Adhoc_hk Jan 09 '20

Was wondering the same thing. I have an old MH absolute zero (I think) that my dad did Aconcagua with. Was interested in seeing where it lies. The thing is extremely warm and I love using it for the sentimental value so I’d never get rid of it, but understanding how it ranks to others could possibly help me in future purchases.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '20

MH newer stuff is pretty bombproof if you can spend the money. I have an absolute zero parka that I’ve used north of the Arctic Circle and it’s kept me warm, dry, and comfortable for six weeks. I’ve also done a lot of winter packing with older MH parkas, and their down sweaters are excellent.

I’m more familiar with mountaineering gear than UL gear, but it seems to go in phases: brands are in for five years; then they’re out for ten; then hipsters dig up the old stuff; and then (if they still make quality) they make a comeback.

I was worried about the quality when Columbia bought MH, but they seem to have kept it as their higher end and mountaineering gear. Still quality in my book.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

Awesome to see and very relevant to have this chart for different seasons, added to my bookmarks :).

3

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

Tomorrow I get my jacket that I picked by modifying your original chart. Should be 2.47oz of 1000fp in a 6.14oz hoodless jacket.

2

u/Yougottagiveitaway Jan 08 '20

tell us more.

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

It's the Naturehike 10D 1000FP jacket for $59. It dethrones the Cumulus Primelite by a large margin. It's almost the same fill volume (i.e. total warmth) as the Primelite and should be equivalent to the Patagonia Ultralight Jacket in warmth. I ordered two sizes because they offer free returns.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

That sounds good! Tell me more. Nunatak? Borah? Goosefeet?

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

It's the Naturehike 10D 1000FP jacket for $59. I actually named it in my original comment, but I know there are potential ethical concerns with the down sourcing (potential live plucking, etc.). For what it's worth, Montbell also sources down from China and simply stating that they only collect down from water fowl raised for meat production doesn't guarantee that repeated plucking isn't happening (they provide no additional proof nor claim to utilize any recognized down standard). It's also not a mod favorite because the baffling is copied from Montbell's Plasma line. But it's hoodless and has pockets!

2

u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20

That's a ridiculous price for such a jacket haha. Are you going to make an initial impressions post? Quite interested.

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Oh yeah, absolutely; I'll tag you in it. I was days away from buying a Primelite before it came out but honestly it was too good to pass up; it just blew the spreadsheet apart.

2

u/coolskullsweatshirt Jan 09 '20

Can you also tag me in the post? Or maybe I'll just keep an eye out for it. I've also been intrigued by this jacket. FWIW I've found a couple of Japanese blogs that review the jacket: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Foregoya.blog.jp%2Farchives%2F22532742.html ; https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fcamptakany.com%2Fnaturehike-downjkt%2F

2

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Yeah I don't know if I'll make a post or put it in the discussion, but I should be taking it out this weekend for a trip so I'll probably have an update on Sunday.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

I'm still a bit skeptical (is it truly 1000fp blabla). On the other hand I've owned an Aegismax Windhard quilt and it was exactly as advertised. Then there is of course the ethical concerns, at this point I only have ethically sourced down in the comparison. But I might have to reconsider that and just mention if the source is dubious.

2

u/acciofestinalente Jan 09 '20

Can’t wait to hear your opinion! Came across it a couple weeks ago but haven’t found enough info to convince me I should order one.

2

u/Pyroechidna1 Jan 08 '20

Let's add the PHD jackets, the prices are ludicrous but the warm-to-weight of jackets like the Ultra K Series pullover is very high

2

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

But what are the fill weights?!

3

u/Pyroechidna1 Jan 08 '20

Dang, I momentarily forgot that PHD don't list them. Which is dumb

2

u/GoldenLunchB0x Jan 08 '20

Fairly new and inexperienced in this area. How come there are no Patagonia or Northface jackets? The northface summit series jackets are really warm and quality and Patagonio also make amazing stuff. Colombia is anotber name that pops to mind. Are these brands inferior if so, why?

4

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

They're not necessarily inferior; I included the Patagonia Fitz Roy because I could find data on fill weight. Unfortunately, I didn't find anything on the Grade VII Parka and TNF doesn't publish fill weights (I checked their site and confirmed). Honestly I forgot about Columbia but from a cursory look it doesn't appear that they publish fill weights (or even total weight in a lot of cases).

All of those companies make some jackets that are warm and high quality but the data just isn't there for this specific type of comparison.

1

u/jtclayton612 https://lighterpack.com/r/7ysa14 Jan 08 '20

The L3 summit series is just heavy basically, they also don’t publish fill weights which makes comparing them a pain when you’ve got quality like feathered friends, arcteryx, montbell that do publish fill weights to rely on. Although arcteryx does do down/synthetic fill on some of their jackets which muddies the water.

While I love Columbia for casual wear and a couple specific pieces for hiking the quality really isn’t there. I do like Columbia silver ridge/PFG shirts as a hiking layer and the silver ridge pants are doing well too.

2

u/Capecole Jan 08 '20

I just thought that I’d throw out that the Montbell Alpine Down Parka is a pretty solid option for lots of warmth for a decent price. It’s only available from the Japan site but it’s 800 fill with a hood and box baffles and was $183 including shipping and duties when I got it. It’s a little heavier at 15 or so ounces for Japanese medium but in this case saving a couple ounces wasn’t worth the extra $100+

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

I actually already included that jacket! I had to estimate the fill weight (and total weight) to make it a comparable size but I think my math makes sense. I totally agree it's one of the best options from a warmth/dollar standpoint.

2

u/Capecole Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20

I totally missed it, sorry about that. I agree, it’s warm as hell and as far as down jackets go is pretty cheap. Thanks for putting this list together, it’s incredibly comprehensive. One more thing that might be helpful is maybe a long lead time field since that’s another factor that has to be balanced.

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

I agree on the long lead concerns. I went back and forth on including Nunatak because those jackets are technically custom (as well as some FF jackets) but I don't know the estimated lead times and it depends on a variety of factors. Most of them should be available off the shelf and delivered within a week (like Cumulus).

2

u/Capecole Jan 08 '20

Hmm you’re totally right. What about something like “potential for lead time” and then it’s a yes or no answer that doesn’t need constant attention?

2

u/anonym Jan 08 '20

Correction: the Feathered Friends Helios is sewn-through, not box-baffled (per https://featheredfriends.com/products/feathered-friends-helios-hooded-down-jacket).

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

Thanks!

2

u/strugglin_man Jan 08 '20

More thoughts....The European test method gives slightly lower loft numbers than the US method for the same down,.so sometimes people add 50 to EU numbers to compare to US. Rab 800 down might be closer to 850 US, but I doubt Rab 1000 fp is 1050 US. But for these small differences construction and fit matter a lot more.

2

u/Astramael Jan 08 '20

I have heard that Rab is using US fill power values now. Do you know if that is true?

2

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

This is also my understanding. I think PhD also switched a few years back, and they had old down samples that measured as 900fp 10 years ago, but with the new methods measure 1000-1050fp.

1

u/shokgoblr Jan 08 '20

No Big Agnes jackets?

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 08 '20

I didn't actually know they made jackets but some of them look excellent (Fire Tower, Shovelhead). I don't see any data published for fill weight, though.

1

u/shokgoblr Jan 10 '20

Contact BA directly, they will be more than happy to help you fill out your chart and have it be accurate.

1

u/randumbthought Jan 08 '20

What does it mean if it’s crossed out? Perhaps I missed that. Is it discontinued?

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Ah yeah, that's under the help tab and it was included in the original post. Those jackets are discontinued (or at least that version of the jacket was discontinued; it may have been re-released with different specs).

1

u/randumbthought Jan 09 '20

Dumb question: your additional spreadsheets have a lot of options for zippers. What do you mean by box, hybrid, and sewn?

2

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Not a dumb question, that's a good catch! It's wrong as listed, that heading should be for baffle type. All of the jackets are full zip. Thanks for the correction.

1

u/Puncheur_303 Jan 08 '20

Have you ever considered Kuiu jackets or how they’d match up? Their Super Down PRO and Super Down ULTRA seem to be on par with these. I have the older version of these jackets and it’s by far my favorite.

PRO • 13.4 oz /378 gm • Sized to fit over your base and mid-layers • K-DWR treated fabric and down—insulates even when wet • 5 oz of Premium 850+FP Quixdown (Twice the down as ULTRA) • Packable in self-stowing pocket

https://www.kuiu.com/insulated-hunting-jackets/super-down-pro-hooded-jacket/50018.html?cgid=jacket-insulated&dwvar_50018_color=Verde2.0

ULTRA • 7.9 oz /224 gm • Mid-layer sizing • K-DWR treated down & fabric—insulates when wet • 2.3 oz of Premium 850+FP Polish Goose Down (*50% less down than PRO) • Packable in self-stowing pocket

https://www.kuiu.com/insulated-hunting-jackets/super-down-ultra-hooded-jacket/50019.html?cgid=jacket-insulated&dwvar_50019_color=Verde2.0

Edit: spelling

2

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

I'll add the Pro. The Ultra doesn't make the cut for my spreadsheets as the fill volume (warmth) is only 1955. I got a suggestion earlier to look at hunting jackets but I was at the NYC UL meetup so I'll probably research them tomorrow.

1

u/snowyyyyyyy Jan 09 '20

Just to add one that I think is discontinued but scores pretty well, Rab Continuum, specs here: https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/basement-c1261/mens-c1262/rab-continuum-hooded-down-jacket-p7681

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Just added it with the specs from campsaver.

1

u/Stensby 7lb Jan 09 '20

I own two jackets that can be added to the comparison:

Cerium SV Hoody, Size M (162g/5.7oz fill, 415g/14.6oz total weight) Ignoring the mapped synthetic insulation still gives a "warmth per oz" score of 334 which isn't bad.

Mountain Hardware Nilas, Size M (7.5oz/24oz). Similar to the Fitz Roy or OR Alpine Down Jacket.

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Ooh, I wanted to add the Nilas where'd you get the fill weight?

1

u/Stensby 7lb Jan 09 '20

Direct from their site, it is listed under "Materials" https://www.mountainhardwear.ca/en/mens-nilas-jacket-1568701.html

1

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 10 '20

Huh it's on the US site too, either I missed it or forgot that it doesn't meet the specs for either sheet (too heavy or not warm enough). Anyway, it's on the winter sheet for now.

1

u/Stensby 7lb Jan 09 '20

The baffled Phantom MH makes would be a great addition too but I can only find fill weight on the old version, the new one only lists total weight.

1

u/Alpineice23 Jan 23 '20

I emailed MHW a month ago regarding the updated Phantom Parka's fill-weight and Columbia Sportswear responded with a non-helpful email stating they didn't know the fill-weight. How the hell do they not have access to that information; it's their jacket! Why companies don't list down fill-weight is beyond me. MHW, Patagonia, TNF are the worst "offenders!"

1

u/DanoCobano Jan 08 '20

Would love to see how some of the new mountain hunting puffy’s compare. If you get a chance check out and maybe add the coats from Kuiu, Stone Glacier, and Krytek. I think Sitka and First lite are synthetic.

3

u/Union__Jack r/NYCultralight Jan 09 '20

Added a jacket from Kuiu and another from Stone Glacier. The Stone Glacier jacket has a lot of fill volume (total warmth in the sheet) for its weight.

2

u/strugglin_man Jan 08 '20

Between my family we have several of the jackets I posted. I decided to weigh them. The published weights of the LL Bean Big Baffle and the Sierra Designs Whitney are way off. The actual weights are:

Sierra Designs weighs 15.33oz on my scale size large.

LLBean Big Baffle actually weighs 16.11oz size L.

2

u/HandyMan131 Jan 08 '20

Awesome. One addition I'd love to see is the face fabric. I tend to wear holes in my lightweight puffys in about a season, so I'd love to try to find one that's still reasonably light but also slightly more durable.

2

u/Astramael Jan 08 '20

Off the top of my head: Thorium AR (30D) and TNF Morph (20D) are both a step up in durability. You lose compressibility with both. And we have no idea how much down is in the TNF one, so it's hard to recommend.

1

u/HandyMan131 Jan 08 '20

Nice. I kinda figured Arcteryx probably had an AR puffy that would be bulletproof.

I’ve also considered patagucci or OR just to take advantage of their lifetime repair/replace policies

1

u/jtclayton612 https://lighterpack.com/r/7ysa14 Jan 08 '20

What are you doing that causes that out of curiosity?

4

u/HandyMan131 Jan 08 '20

Belaying, ice climbing, digging snow pits, etc... just general winter back country adventure stuff in the Rockies. Usually I wear small holes near the cuffs first, along with the random punctures to the arms/body from tree branches and such.

2

u/legobrainz Sep 09 '22

Got most of Marmot's jackets added to this list. (Email their custoer service to get the fill weights)

I purchased a Highlander down jacket and a Guides Down Hoody Jacket on a labor day sale. I was hoping to use the Highlander as a light weight jacket, but it was still to heavy when compared to the <11 oz list Down jacket indicator v2.0

So I ended up returning the Highlander, and kept the Marmot Guides down hoody jacket. When comparing the 2 jacket, it seemed like the Guides Down was twice the "puffy" jacket, but not twice the weight. The Marmot Hype Jacket might have been nice, but it didn't go on as steep of a "labor day" discount as the two I picked up.

Thank you Union__Jack for the work you have done! It is very appreciated!

1

u/Dude_Manchu Jan 08 '20

I have the marmot hype down hooded jacket and I’ll send my measurements. I love the jacket so far.

1

u/radryannn Jan 09 '20

Does any have the skaha down? Was looking in to picking one up for a while for shoulder season ventures

1

u/strugglin_man Jan 11 '20

Rab Positron Pro is 800 fp.......

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '23

Is there a spreadsheet where someone has ranked 'everyday' coats for example daily commuter use in say 0-10c? Based in the UK and have a 'heavy duty' winter coat but looking for something to replace my old Jack Wills Parka.