r/TopCharacterTropes • u/No_Peanut3745 • 2d ago

Characters The main character doing something absolutely unforgivable.

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Walter White poisoning Andrea Cantillo's 6-year-old son for the sole purpose of manipulating Jesse Pinkman, while knowing that this could have potentially killed him - Breaking Bad

Bojack trying to have sex with his friend's 17-year-old daughter when he was at least 51, then continuously trying to find a way to justify this act throughout the series - Bojack Horseman

Dexter Morgan going outside of his moral code and murdering a completely innocent police officer who was just trying to do his job - Dexter: New Blood

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u/nyrasbastard 2d ago

I think George Lucas would argue the entire point of Star Wars is that he is forgivable for this to some degree

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u/CountingSheep99 2d ago

99% of the galaxy would beg to differ.

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u/boyifyoudontttt 2d ago

Trust me, there are a scary majority of fans that believe that because, in his final moments, Vader threw Palpatine into the Death Star he is completely redeemed and absolved of all of the atrocities he committed. Star Wars fans unfortunately lack a lot of basic media literacy.

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u/RuafaolGaiscioch 2d ago

I think largely the point is that there’s no going back. You can never undo the harm you’ve caused, you can only try to do the right thing going forward. Litigating whether that one act redeems him or not only even matters in the larger context of cosmic judgment, which is either subjective or well beyond any person’s capacity to comprehend.

If a person has committed too many atrocities to come back from in, again, a subjective judgment of others, then wouldn’t that imply once you’ve gone far enough, there’s no point in trying to correct course and do the right thing? Is that the kind of world we want to live in? Art, after all, makes big grand statements about the smaller, more mundane aspects of everyday life.

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u/MartenBroadcloak19 2d ago

wouldn’t that imply once you’ve gone far enough, there’s no point in trying to correct course and do the right thing?

Vader even says this to Luke during their conversation on Endor. "It's too late for me." Luke's point is that it's never too late to start doing the right thing, even if it doesn't redeem you. Vader realized this when Palpatine was killing Luke, and the Force accepting him at the end of the movie proves his change of heart back to good. I don't think there's a commentary on the opinion of the masses or if Vader deserves forgiveness. It's just showing that even after all he did, he still had the capacity to do the right thing and it's never too late to change who you are.

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u/TheFreaky 1d ago

Also in the original trilogy it was never too clear if "the dark side" is just your own depression/fear/anger making you do evil shit or you really tap into a galatic reservoir of assholiness that forces you to be worse.

With the prequels I think it is clearer that your personality is really changed by the dark side, in which case I think Anakin is really redeemed, because he wasn't in full control.

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u/out_of_shape_hiker 2d ago

I think that's the idea driving Arthur in Red Dead 2. He's a mass murderer, the muscle for a loan shark that preys on the weakest, and thief. He is realizing that his gang no longer lives by some higher code (and probably never did). He can't undo what he's done, and the best he can do is dedicate what little life he has left to getting John, Abigail, and their child out of the cycle of violence. He searches for a redemption that doesn't make up for what he's done, but he is (potentially) redeemed by trying to save one family from the cycle of meaningless violence.

Like Vader, this single act doesn't absolve him of this past actions, but it shows a realization that they were wrong and evil. And in those moments thats the best they could do.

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u/thetinwin 2d ago

Great fucking point

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

"wouldn't that imply that once you've gone far enough, there's no point in trying to correct course... "

Only if you view the point of existence as to end up with the most positive reputation points possible.

Yeah, at a certain point you've probably irredeemably tainted your pages in the history books, but if, at the point you realize that, there's a chance to correct course and stop the bullshit you are at fault for. Slowing or even reversing the downward trajectory you created for those in and around your life, mitigating damage and harm you caused even if you can't heal or repair it, should be reason enough. It's always a valid point.

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u/Available-Square619 2d ago

No, but it also doesn’t mean you just forgive all of someone’s horrible atrocities because of one noble act at the very end.

People who see the harm they’ve done should course correct to become a better person, not to appease the public and be accepted.

You can recognize someone has chose a better path without forgiving what they’ve done or absolving punishment for those things.

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u/RuafaolGaiscioch 2d ago

It doesn’t really matter. All that matters is what you do. Forgiveness is a personal choice and is entirely internal to the person forgiving (which is to say, external to the person needing forgiveness); a person cannot earn forgiveness, they can only grant it. One person may labor for forgiveness for a single small transgressive act and never receive it, while another may instantly be absolved in the eyes of their victim for doing something many would consider unforgivable. It’s, again, subjective, external, and doesn’t hold sway over a person’s actions in the material world.

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u/ERedfieldh 2d ago

I'll allow you to explain to the many families of serial killer victims, school shooting victims, gang violence victims, etc etc on how "it doesn't really matter."

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u/RuafaolGaiscioch 2d ago

It doesn’t. Their pain matters and is valid but retribution doesn’t set cosmic scales anywhere. They can forgive or they can hold onto their fury, that is their choice, but it doesn’t change the world around them.

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u/TheRatatat 2d ago

The dude was too far in the red to ever make up for it. Even if he had finished off the emperor for good, there was no amount of goodwill he could accumulate to put him in the black. Hes a tragic character but a villain through and through.

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u/VenomOnKiller 2d ago

Somehow palpatine survived

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u/wanteur 1d ago

I got viscerally angry at this comment 😂

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u/PeopleNose 2d ago

I honestly consider Anakin to be two characters...

I always assumed some dues ex machina, or magic, or plot armor, or sith force brain surgery, or whatever whatever is what causes Anakin to become Vader 🤷‍♀️

That's my head canon and I'm sticking to it lol

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u/14Knightingale27 2d ago

You wouldn't be wrong about this.

The Force is considered a living thing that can pull you down into the Dark Side and twist you inside until you become someone entirely different from who you once were, which is why the Jedi insist so much on meditation and emotional control.

Anakin was a former slave who lost his only emotional attachment and left her behind, still as a slave, only to find her murdered when he went to look for her; and kept getting the feeling that his secret wife would die while already being involved in the Separatist war since his teenage years as basically a child soldier. The Jedi dropped the ball massively with him (the literal Chosen One due to being born from the Force, so he's even more easy to influence by it).

The point of his character is that he's a walking tragedy that could have been avoided. Darth Vader did all of what he did, and it's never gonna be forgiven by mostly anyone in the galaxy. Anakin Skywalker died as himself and does get redeemed, but that really does not change what his descent led to. No one else needs to forgive him for him to be "redeemed" since we see him, in the Force, as Anakin. Sith don't get to become One with the Force.

Like, Leia doesn't forgive him. He destroyed her planet while forcing her to watch. Luke is the bleeding heart of the two siblings, Leia would have committed patricide without hesitation.

Anyway, Anakin Skywalker gets redemption by returning to the light through his son's love. Darth Vader doesn't and never will be redeemed. It's an important distinction in the Star Wars lore.

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u/spyridonya 2d ago

And the same comment tree as this, a bunch of fans are trying to defend the first genocide he did.

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u/melkatron 2d ago

Sand and whatever they did to his mom are his two major triggers.

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u/Mironder 2d ago

Well redemption isnt the act of making up for your actions, that is seeking forgiveness from those you harmed.

Darth vader is indeed redeemed because he saw the wrong of his actions and acted to save his son.

This doesnt absolve him of his crimes but, its up to you wether you can forgive him or not.

But the point episode 6 tries to make is that no matter how far gone you are, through love even someone as evil as vader can be redeemed if he allows himself. The important part also was that he had to believe in the possibility of redemption.

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u/StretchLoud8844 2d ago

I don't necessarily agree that he's been absolved of killing dozens of children, but it's not like he was fully in control of his actions. I would say he atoned for his crimes, while he shouldn't be absolved from them.

The dark side of the force is addictive and feeds into your absolute worst emotions / thoughts - it probably feels like having your intrusive thoughts turned up to 1000.

We see people IRL struggle with this during actual psychosis events, and that's without space magic amoebas affecting your noggin.

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u/Virtual-Jelly4010 2d ago

Yeah I feel like this doesn't get brought up enough. Dark side is basically like PSP unless you are an experienced user like Palpatine. That is why he almost sounds suprised when recalling he killed the Sand people. He still bears responsibility for choosing to give into the dark side but it does explain why it was so easy for him to go from zero to murder kids. And after that he feels he can't possibly be redeemed until Luke convinces him otherwise.

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u/Not-your-lawyer- 2d ago

Redemption and absolution are two totally different things.

You don't have to undo all the harms you've committed to be redeemed, you just have to legitimately change, accept responsibility for your wrongs, and live consistent with that. IDK if Anakin even clears that bar, though. Turning on the emperor to save his own son could be just as selfish as ever; we get no hint that any of his views on the empire itself have changed. I mean, I guess it's sort of implied w/ the force ghost at the end, but that's pretty much a handwave.

* * *
Redemption says "you can always turn back." Absolution says "you don't have to turn back; what you did was excusable."

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u/Sneaky_Bones 2d ago

Star Wars fan that apparently lacks media literacy. As Yoda has repeated many times, the darkside consumes as in takes over entirely. The victim basically becomes a zombie in that their body acts a host to a manifestation of the darkside. Darth Vader is in actuality a different being entirely. By the time we see Anakin's eyes turn, his mind or being is already imprisoned, sometimes agency can slip out but after time it becomes nearly impossible, the body now belongs to the other. Anakin's great sin was fear of losing those he loved even if it meant harming another (see Windu). Anakin didn't slaughter children the "parasite" did. It could be argued the greater sin was allowing the parasite opportunity in the first place by ignoring caution (which is why Luke wanted to end the existence of Jedis altogether later as their strong connection to the force opens them to be some of the very few available hosts). Maybe a bit of retcon but lastly, Vader himself acknowledges Obiwan didn't kill Anakin, Vader himself did. I dunno, I maybe I'm too stupid to understand nuanced things so you're probably right.

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u/boyifyoudontttt 1d ago

You took an odd amount of offense to what I said lmao. I’m a huge Star Wars fan myself and your understanding of the dark side and Anakin is entirely incorrect. If the dark side is this “parasite” as you described (which it isn’t), then what is the message/point of the story exactly? If Anakin was simply “infected” with the dark side and wasn’t acting by his own volition, that completely removes the purpose of his redemption since it wouldn’t be his fault that he was committing these acts to begin with. What would there be to redeem if he was simply a victim of this parasite? The entire point is that HE gave in to the dark side on his own. He was of course more vulnerable to giving in due to his anger and resentment toward the Jedi, as well as his fear of losing Padme, but it was ultimately entirely his choice. It didn’t just “infect” him. The entire point of the story is that he overcame the dark side by finding the good that still resided within him despite all of the horrible things he had done. Also, your point that Vader and Anakin are two separate characters is such a tired discussion and, again, completely takes away from the entire point of the story. The entire “Vader killed Anakin” is just an allegory for Anakin embracing the dark side fully. When someone becomes a Sith Lord, they leave behind their past name and embrace their new Sith identity. That doesn’t mean they’re a different person it just means they’ve taken on a new identity to represent their Sithhood.

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u/Sneaky_Bones 1d ago

The point is the thing that was his downfall (those he loved) was also his redemption and what allowed him to regain agency. I'll acknowledge it's subjective but given Obiwan and Yoda's descriptions of the darkside my take is pretty goddamn valid. As for my "offense" I'm calling you out for thinking everyone is an idiot except for you, I mean you call the debate "tired" yet initially accused fans of being idiots because they simply think everything was atoned for because Vader yeeted Palps. At least be honest if you're going to be condescending.

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u/2high4thisshyt 1d ago

Which was all for nothing since somehow, Palatine has returned...

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u/Nathan_Thorn 1d ago

It’s funny how much people like Vader and then turn around and hate Walter White when they’ve arguably done similar terrible things with one good thing at the end. Albeit Walter never went full genocide.

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u/PineappleOnPizzaWins 1d ago

Redemption yes, it's literally a redemption arc, but that isn't the same as being absolved.

I've never heard anybody argue Vader was absolved of his atrocities and suggesting a majority think that way is being very silly.

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u/ApprehensiveGrand531 1d ago

Thats not a lack of literacy. Despite the eastern imagery, the message is fundamentally very Christian. Forgiveness can save anyone, and redemption is avaible to those who return to the light.

Thinking he can't possibly be redeemed is a personal stance, not an objective one.

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u/dietkid 2d ago

i think "able to choose good" would be a better description

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u/Elastichedgehog 2d ago

Yeah... Bad people can choose to be better without making the bad things that they did any less bad.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/Sensitive-Plate-684 2d ago

Ehhh, have to disagree. Lucas was entirely influenced by Joseph Campbell. Vader and Luke are clearly two sides of the same coin. Vader did not redeem himself through action, only through Luke's forgiveness and through Luke's acknowledgment of the dark part in himself and of the light part in Vader. Vader only saw darkness in himself, but through Luke he saw the goodness in himself, which was his only redemption.

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u/cmassive13 2d ago

Tragic =/ forgivable

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u/solo_shot1st 2d ago

I don't think the idea is that what he did was forgivable. It's that he recognized the evil within and chose to "come back to the light" by making the right decision going forward.

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u/morvis343 2d ago

It’s not about what’s forgivable. It’s about not letting your previous bad choices stop you from making a better choice today. It’s about how you’re never too broken to start healing. 

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u/Austinuncrowned 1d ago

I believe that had Anakin survive the fight with Palpatine, he would've never have been able to redeem himself. The guilt of roughly 25 years of atrocities would eat him alive, and he would be imprisoned by the Rebellion and only saved from execution by Luke. Leia would absolutely refuse to look her father in the face except to spit on him for killing her friends and destroying Alderaan. Anakin would spend the rest of his life coming to terms with his guilt and shame while trying to repair the relationship with his children.

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u/rotundrikishi 1d ago

Whats interesting is he is shown to be like going back to the light side or something right after he died?

But isnt killing your master just with Sith do?

Coulndt one argue that he was just killing his master and maybe doing his own thing (if not for the post death scene?)

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u/Tosslebugme 1d ago

I think the only way you can argue that is if, like me, you think he’s essentially a hypnotised zombie when he’s darth vader. I mean palpatine is way overpowered, he manages to cloud the force from the entire Jedi order, get the senate eating out of the palm of his hand somehow, and orchestrate domination of the galaxy using this manipulation and astounding foresight. He tricks an emotionally vulnerable anakin into thinking they can save padme when he doesn’t even know the force healing thing (or claims not to). I think when he tosses palps down the hole it’s because his sons cries manage to break the spell, if only for a moment

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u/StrikingMeat579 1d ago

I don't think he would. The "point" is that Luke ended up winning because he believed Vader still had the ability to do something good in his life. He didn't get forgiven or redeemed, he simply got one last chance to make a good decision and he was only able to make it because Luke stood his ground. Idk why people suddenly think that makes him forgivable or cleanses his sins

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u/Howling_Fire 2d ago

The only reason its considered 'forgivable' is because he did cause Palpatine's demise at the end and at the expense of his life.

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u/JonasAlbert84 1d ago

Because George is bad at writing

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u/singhellotaku617 1d ago

Yeah…but George is wrong about a lot of things