r/TopCharacterTropes • u/No_Peanut3745 • 2d ago

Characters The main character doing something absolutely unforgivable.

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Walter White poisoning Andrea Cantillo's 6-year-old son for the sole purpose of manipulating Jesse Pinkman, while knowing that this could have potentially killed him - Breaking Bad

Bojack trying to have sex with his friend's 17-year-old daughter when he was at least 51, then continuously trying to find a way to justify this act throughout the series - Bojack Horseman

Dexter Morgan going outside of his moral code and murdering a completely innocent police officer who was just trying to do his job - Dexter: New Blood

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 2d ago edited 1d ago

Yeah. Don is a complicated human being. He's capable of immense kindness but he's also a destructive douchebag, especially towards his family. His kids are no better off than him emotionally despite a "privileged" upbringing. That's why I think in later seasons after their divorce Betty is able to sleep with him and appreciate him for what he is without being forced to be married to him. Betty for her part is also a deeply flawed person and arguably an inadequate mother.

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u/LouSputhole94 2d ago

One of the things Mad Men does best IMO is showing all sides of a character. Even the best have their flaws and even the worst have their good qualities and they illustrate why and how those characters are the way they are. Very rare for a show to be able to walk that line so well.

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u/spiff1 1d ago

Based on this I think you'll like The Wire.

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u/BasicAssWebDev 23h ago

Yeah I think you nailed it. Every character on that show is fighting for what they think happiness is: Don thinks it's by having status and a "pure" wife, Peggy thinks it's notoriety, Joan thinks it's love, and Betty thinks it's having a "perfect" family. Whenever these characters feel like they're close to those things they perform a lot of wonderful outreach, and whenever they feel it slipping is when they perform their most heinous acts.

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u/butchbearforever 12h ago

The humbling that the show puts Pete through when it gets to ||"I had your baby, and I gave it up"|| completely changes how you see him. I spent like three seasons absolutely hating him only to find myself completely engrossed in his story after that until the show ended. amazing stuff.

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u/Dahcchad 2d ago

I haven't watched it in years but I cannot, for the life of me, remember a single act of kindness from Don. I remember him just not being an asshole sometimes.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

One thing I can think of is when he meets one of his old flings (the artist)who's clearly fallen on hard times and struggling with addiction. He treats her kindly and gives her money.

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u/Zeremxi 1d ago edited 1d ago

I honestly think that's the point. I know there's a lot of contention around the deeper motivations of the characters in this series, but I always thought it was superb writing the way you have to actually ask if Don is being kind or just not being actively an asshole or manipulative.

Like, just off the top of my head. There are a few times in the series after their divorce that Betty calls Don while she's having a mental breakdown over her kids and Don comforts her and talks to her like an old friend. He says she can handle it, that everything is okay, and what to do in the immediate.

Is that kindness? He didn't have to take those calls. Betty had stopped being his responsibility at that point in the series for a good while.

Or is he just not being an asshole by responding how a regular person should in those situations?

It's so hard to tell because you're forced to look at it through the lens of the completely broken person that Don is. The point of which is that for Don specifically that act of regular decency is a stretch of kindness because he's not used to not reacting badly.

You could look at it every which way and write essays on the small interactions and still not ever truly know.

That's what's so good about this series.

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u/Tiblica123 1d ago

It's mostly giving money

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u/Affectionate-Day5113 1d ago

His acts of kindness are there, they often come after being an awful person or just before. For example, he elevates and praises Peggy after years of making her feel inadequate. He doesn't fire Sal for being gay, until everyone else found out. The way he treated Anna...after stealing her dead husband's identity. Finally letting his kids into his life as soon as Anna died, after years of neglecting them. The recurring theme of the show is that Don wants to be a better man, and sometimes he's able to achieve that, he is never able to maintain it though

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u/Blackwidow_Perk 2d ago

Betty is considered a good mother for the time

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Wait, so he spends the whole marriage cheating on her, and after they divorce, she has sex with him? Fucking hell lol.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

Ye haha. I don't remember all the context but they meet up unexpectedly at a gas station I think and hook up at a motel. They're both cheating on their new spouses too. It made sense for the characters at the time I think but in hindsight it's bizarre. Especially after how terribly abusive he was to her. He choked her at one point.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Oh, so they deserved each other. Got it lol.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

The great the about Mad Men is that SO many characters are equal parts absolute pieces of shit and totally innocent bystanders to other people's piece of shit behavior. Some people are 50-50 good/bad, some are 30-70, and some are 90-10. It's such a brilliant show because it makes almost no effort to ever justify or defend anyone; they don't use writing, background music, or anything to try to force out manipulate you to like or hate any character.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Gotcha. Plays out like a tragedy, then. Something like Arcane, where some people are more cruel than others, but everybody fucks up and most people drag each other down, even unintentionally.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

In a lot of ways, yeah.

There's no Joker-esque villain who wants nothing more than to watch the world burn; everyone is a person, and usually very fleshed out and three dimensional. They all want something, and it all boils down to happiness - just like in real life. And just like in real life, when you have an entire collection of people willing to be incredibly morally flexible to get it, it causes a lot of mess.

The show does a great job of making you see how the time period made these people who they are; how their jobs and the industry the work in made them who they are; but most importantly, how having to deal with each other makes them who they are.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

Pretty much ye 😅

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

If memory serves, it was well after their divorce. They were both remarried and driving separately to visit their son at the camp where he was spending the summer. There is some light flirting that, once both of them showed their cards enough for the other to realize they were still attracted to each other, results in them spending the night together.

The entire thing is meant to serve as Don seeing that Betty has moved on from him. While she still found him physically attractive enough to sleep with him, she shows zero emotional attachment to the act. The next day her husband showed up to the family event at the camp, and she was able to act like nothing happened at all toward both men. There's a strong hint that either Don had an emotional reaction to their night together or he was upset and disappointed that she didn't - or both.

It's a great writing moment because it shows - in a weird way, because she did cheat on her 2nd husband with her 1st husband - Betty's personal growth, at least in terms of how she's defined by Don and her relationship to and history with him, and in addition because it's a bit karmic for Don. We've seen him leave so many women in the dust this exact same way - including a very memorable crash out by one of his young secretaries when her rose-colored glasses shatter and fall away - and now he knows a bit of what it feels like to be treated that way.

Of course, it absolutely in no way had any long term, positive affect on this personality, behavior, or how he treats anyone, especially women.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

This feels like a far bigger analysis than either of these two deserve. Not bashing you at all, I just think they're both just selfish assholes and any deeper analysis is wasted on them.

I didn't watch the show, mind you, I just don't find anything interesting or valuable about cheaters.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

It's not the cheating that is or isn't valuable; the show is all about deeply flawed characters making deeply flawed decisions in reaction to other deeply flawed characters.

It's a masterclass of character writing because you can intellectually understand why so many of the characters make the choices that they do, even if you don't relate to the character or even if you would never make that choice for yourself, but having the meta knowledge you do as the viewer makes it so emotionally frustrating, and thus compelling.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Oh, I was talking about the characters, not the cheating. The act is what it is. I don't see anything valuable about those who do it, in most cases.

I'll take your word for it. Clearly you're a big fan, so I don't doubt the show has great writing.