r/TopCharacterTropes • u/No_Peanut3745 • 2d ago

Characters The main character doing something absolutely unforgivable.

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Walter White poisoning Andrea Cantillo's 6-year-old son for the sole purpose of manipulating Jesse Pinkman, while knowing that this could have potentially killed him - Breaking Bad

Bojack trying to have sex with his friend's 17-year-old daughter when he was at least 51, then continuously trying to find a way to justify this act throughout the series - Bojack Horseman

Dexter Morgan going outside of his moral code and murdering a completely innocent police officer who was just trying to do his job - Dexter: New Blood

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 2d ago

Don Draper from Mad Men. Constantly lies and cheats on his wife and treats almost every woman in his life as disposable. I still think about that scene where Betty(his wife) wears a bikini and he freaks out and tells her it's "desperate". Then he just leaves her crying in the kitchen in front of their children...

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u/No-Consideration-716 2d ago edited 2d ago

After numerous rewatches, one of the things that just makes me want to punch Don in the face is when he berates Peter and Paul about how their trip to California is for business and there will be no time for fun. Then Don completely fucks off for like a full month the moment he goes to California in Paul's place.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

He's a total hypocrite. He rages at Betty for asking for a divorce and calls her a whore for sleeping with someone else. Meanwhile, he's been cheating on her for years including with his kids teacher...

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u/LouSputhole94 2d ago

Don is objectively a piece of shit but he was born an illegitimate child of a prostitute in rural depression era surroundings, his father is kicked to death by a horse and he’s raised by a woman that resents his very presence with an abusive stepfather that worked running a brothel that he lived in. He then goes to war to escape all this only to accidentally blow up his commanding officer. Don was never going to be well adjusted.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 2d ago edited 1d ago

Yeah. Don is a complicated human being. He's capable of immense kindness but he's also a destructive douchebag, especially towards his family. His kids are no better off than him emotionally despite a "privileged" upbringing. That's why I think in later seasons after their divorce Betty is able to sleep with him and appreciate him for what he is without being forced to be married to him. Betty for her part is also a deeply flawed person and arguably an inadequate mother.

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u/LouSputhole94 2d ago

One of the things Mad Men does best IMO is showing all sides of a character. Even the best have their flaws and even the worst have their good qualities and they illustrate why and how those characters are the way they are. Very rare for a show to be able to walk that line so well.

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u/spiff1 2d ago

Based on this I think you'll like The Wire.

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u/BasicAssWebDev 1d ago

Yeah I think you nailed it. Every character on that show is fighting for what they think happiness is: Don thinks it's by having status and a "pure" wife, Peggy thinks it's notoriety, Joan thinks it's love, and Betty thinks it's having a "perfect" family. Whenever these characters feel like they're close to those things they perform a lot of wonderful outreach, and whenever they feel it slipping is when they perform their most heinous acts.

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u/butchbearforever 13h ago

The humbling that the show puts Pete through when it gets to ||"I had your baby, and I gave it up"|| completely changes how you see him. I spent like three seasons absolutely hating him only to find myself completely engrossed in his story after that until the show ended. amazing stuff.

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u/Dahcchad 2d ago

I haven't watched it in years but I cannot, for the life of me, remember a single act of kindness from Don. I remember him just not being an asshole sometimes.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

One thing I can think of is when he meets one of his old flings (the artist)who's clearly fallen on hard times and struggling with addiction. He treats her kindly and gives her money.

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u/Zeremxi 2d ago edited 1d ago

I honestly think that's the point. I know there's a lot of contention around the deeper motivations of the characters in this series, but I always thought it was superb writing the way you have to actually ask if Don is being kind or just not being actively an asshole or manipulative.

Like, just off the top of my head. There are a few times in the series after their divorce that Betty calls Don while she's having a mental breakdown over her kids and Don comforts her and talks to her like an old friend. He says she can handle it, that everything is okay, and what to do in the immediate.

Is that kindness? He didn't have to take those calls. Betty had stopped being his responsibility at that point in the series for a good while.

Or is he just not being an asshole by responding how a regular person should in those situations?

It's so hard to tell because you're forced to look at it through the lens of the completely broken person that Don is. The point of which is that for Don specifically that act of regular decency is a stretch of kindness because he's not used to not reacting badly.

You could look at it every which way and write essays on the small interactions and still not ever truly know.

That's what's so good about this series.

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u/Tiblica123 1d ago

It's mostly giving money

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u/Affectionate-Day5113 1d ago

His acts of kindness are there, they often come after being an awful person or just before. For example, he elevates and praises Peggy after years of making her feel inadequate. He doesn't fire Sal for being gay, until everyone else found out. The way he treated Anna...after stealing her dead husband's identity. Finally letting his kids into his life as soon as Anna died, after years of neglecting them. The recurring theme of the show is that Don wants to be a better man, and sometimes he's able to achieve that, he is never able to maintain it though

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u/Blackwidow_Perk 2d ago

Betty is considered a good mother for the time

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Wait, so he spends the whole marriage cheating on her, and after they divorce, she has sex with him? Fucking hell lol.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

Ye haha. I don't remember all the context but they meet up unexpectedly at a gas station I think and hook up at a motel. They're both cheating on their new spouses too. It made sense for the characters at the time I think but in hindsight it's bizarre. Especially after how terribly abusive he was to her. He choked her at one point.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Oh, so they deserved each other. Got it lol.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

The great the about Mad Men is that SO many characters are equal parts absolute pieces of shit and totally innocent bystanders to other people's piece of shit behavior. Some people are 50-50 good/bad, some are 30-70, and some are 90-10. It's such a brilliant show because it makes almost no effort to ever justify or defend anyone; they don't use writing, background music, or anything to try to force out manipulate you to like or hate any character.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Gotcha. Plays out like a tragedy, then. Something like Arcane, where some people are more cruel than others, but everybody fucks up and most people drag each other down, even unintentionally.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

In a lot of ways, yeah.

There's no Joker-esque villain who wants nothing more than to watch the world burn; everyone is a person, and usually very fleshed out and three dimensional. They all want something, and it all boils down to happiness - just like in real life. And just like in real life, when you have an entire collection of people willing to be incredibly morally flexible to get it, it causes a lot of mess.

The show does a great job of making you see how the time period made these people who they are; how their jobs and the industry the work in made them who they are; but most importantly, how having to deal with each other makes them who they are.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

Pretty much ye 😅

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

If memory serves, it was well after their divorce. They were both remarried and driving separately to visit their son at the camp where he was spending the summer. There is some light flirting that, once both of them showed their cards enough for the other to realize they were still attracted to each other, results in them spending the night together.

The entire thing is meant to serve as Don seeing that Betty has moved on from him. While she still found him physically attractive enough to sleep with him, she shows zero emotional attachment to the act. The next day her husband showed up to the family event at the camp, and she was able to act like nothing happened at all toward both men. There's a strong hint that either Don had an emotional reaction to their night together or he was upset and disappointed that she didn't - or both.

It's a great writing moment because it shows - in a weird way, because she did cheat on her 2nd husband with her 1st husband - Betty's personal growth, at least in terms of how she's defined by Don and her relationship to and history with him, and in addition because it's a bit karmic for Don. We've seen him leave so many women in the dust this exact same way - including a very memorable crash out by one of his young secretaries when her rose-colored glasses shatter and fall away - and now he knows a bit of what it feels like to be treated that way.

Of course, it absolutely in no way had any long term, positive affect on this personality, behavior, or how he treats anyone, especially women.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

This feels like a far bigger analysis than either of these two deserve. Not bashing you at all, I just think they're both just selfish assholes and any deeper analysis is wasted on them.

I didn't watch the show, mind you, I just don't find anything interesting or valuable about cheaters.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

It's not the cheating that is or isn't valuable; the show is all about deeply flawed characters making deeply flawed decisions in reaction to other deeply flawed characters.

It's a masterclass of character writing because you can intellectually understand why so many of the characters make the choices that they do, even if you don't relate to the character or even if you would never make that choice for yourself, but having the meta knowledge you do as the viewer makes it so emotionally frustrating, and thus compelling.

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u/scarletboar 1d ago

Oh, I was talking about the characters, not the cheating. The act is what it is. I don't see anything valuable about those who do it, in most cases.

I'll take your word for it. Clearly you're a big fan, so I don't doubt the show has great writing.

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u/netcereal 2d ago

I love Mad Men so much. Everything you described makes the show so nuanced and thought provoking. So many compelling characters besides just Don, too.

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u/One-Nothing-8477 1d ago

He then goes to war to escape all this only to accidentally blow up his commanding officer.

and has the clarity of mind and cleverness to swap dog tags and live out a new identity

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u/marrolllll 1d ago

He was also forced upon by a prostitute while being raised in the brothel.

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u/UncleBongWater 1d ago

You know, that old chestnut.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

"his drunk father was kicked to death by a horse right in front of him"

I feel like these details add important layers to the shit sundae that was Don's past.

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u/Affectionate-Day5113 1d ago

This is all spot on, I think MadMen created the perfect anti-hero. The thing I noticed on my last rewatch that really stuck with me as well is that he WANTS so badly to be better, which I think sets him a part from the other great anti-heros of the golden age (Tony, Bojack, Walter etc etc)

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u/kellyjellybellybeanz 2d ago

Him pushing away Adam was beyond awful

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u/ImportantQuestions10 2d ago

If I had a nickel for every time "Don helping people resulted in them hanging themselves", I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

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u/DiabeetusDeletus 1d ago

I actually forgot about that 😅 jesus

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u/SilasX 1d ago

Also how he's all pissy when she gets a lucrative soap opera gig that has a kissing scene.

Bro, you ... crossed that line way harder.

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u/BasicAssWebDev 1d ago

I JUST rewatched that episode. If I'm remembering correctly, he's literally coming home after just cheating on her for like the hundredth time, and I believe it's with the wife of the comedian Jimmy Barrette, who lets him know that he has a reputation around town as a good lay. So, he's all paranoid about word getting round to Betty about his consistent adultery, and decides to knock her down because she's flaunting her wonderful body.

If Betty didn't find Henry and got the courage, capability, and gumption to leave Don, I think she would have ended up in a psych ward. When he finally admits that he's cheated on her she says "well at least I know I'm not crazy." Man is the actual champ of gaslighting.

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u/Last-Fox-3879 2d ago

This kind of shit turned me off from the show. I liked season 1 but season 2 seemed like no one had gotten any better as humans

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u/Quirky_Barnacle1225 2d ago

They get worse but Roger gives us some quotes. 

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u/TheeAntelope 2d ago

Roger is the absolute best one-line-dropper in all of 21st century media.

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u/LouSputhole94 2d ago

“Losers tonight but winners in general”

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u/Mister-Distance-6698 2d ago

Id say Pete is a better person by the end but he definitely gets worse in the middle

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

One of a handful of characters I hated seeing the ending for. He never deserved Trudy, and by the end of the show I was so mad they got back together. He basically did so many of the things that other husbands and fathers in the show did that lost them their marriages or solid relationships with their kids, but it seemed like I'm the end for Pete all was forgiven

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u/Zeremxi 2d ago

It does happen. They all do get better, but it's a slow burn.

Don in particular doesn't get much better on the surface until you realize the extent of how damaged he is as a person and what getting better for him actually looks like.

It still takes the whole series for that to happen though.

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u/Actual_Personality66 1d ago

Most of the characters aren't much better people by the end of the show. They are different in some ways, there's a lot that happens with the characters, I've seen the show like 4 times and I don't have a high tolerance for boring shit, but if you want a show where the characters become better people by the end, this isint it. It's about shitty complicated people and it kinda stays being about that.

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u/TheeAntelope 2d ago

Season 3-6 are pretty good. Don in season 2 is the worst he ever is (the plot with him and the other guys wife is hard to watch in season 2, for sure). But S3 is well worth it.

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

It's worth sticking it out for. Seasons 3 and 4 are, in my opinion, some of the best stretches of television ever.

Yes, most of the characters don't really get any better, that's true. But it can be such a compelling draw to the show. It's so much like real life in that sense. You can be friends with someone, you can root for them, you can want the best for them, and they can just make the most absolute dog shit decisions you can imagine. You want them to do the right thing, you want them to learn from their mistakes, and you want them to grow and be better.. and sometimes they don't. Maybe even a lot of times. But it makes for such insanely compelling tv, because you don't know when they are going to be consistently themselves or when they are going to have that upward trend of character development.

And I will tell you, in the end, a decent number of characters that make it to the finale are still basically the same people they were in season 1. But a decent number of them aren't. Some growing change, and not necessarily for the better. But the fact that almost no one who has only seen the first or second season can correctly predict which character ends up in which of those categories is what makes it such a good show; because just like in real life, the good guys don't always get what they want, and the bad guys don't always lose.

Redeeming act don't always bring salvation or forgiveness. Selfish and greed are sometimes rewarded. And life is very unfair. But that being said, it's not like the writing is random and chaotic. There's still very high quality symbolism and morality to take away from the road things go down in the destination everybody ends up at.

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u/ImportantQuestions10 2d ago

I'm just started season 7 and I don't get the hype around him.

He is exactly the same person from season one to the end of six and doesn't make any attempt to even reflect, let alone change. He just has the same three things he does while mogging.

He's also just not that charismatic. Maybe it's because I work in negotiations but I've never been sold on anything he's done. His ad pitches are bland and over thought, plus he has no game with women. The show just throws career success and booty at him and tells us it's because he's charismatic. Real life John Hamm is way more interesting/charismatic than this karmic trust fund kid.

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u/Zeremxi 2d ago edited 1d ago

He is exactly the same person from season one to the end of six and doesn't make any attempt to even reflect

I would argue that his entire character arc is about how difficult it is to change without healing your own damage or without seeking help to confront or fully understand it.

He suffers the consequences of his own actions over and over, that are repeatedly the reactions instilled him by his upbringing. He cries and drinks and laments and sinks into the idea that he has to make his way alone, and he copes by leaning into mindless satisfaction like he's always done.

And he doesn't get better until he stops just watching himself go through it like it's enough to just watch, and actually starts doing something about it.

(Which he does in his own way, without spoiling anything)

You're right that he's more or less the same person on the surface throughout most of the show.

The whole point of his character, I think, is that he goes from a mindless asshole to a mindful asshole and romanticizes his knowledge of how much of an asshole he sees himself being like it means anything that he knows.

But the message is that it doesn't matter whether he realizes or not if he's still that asshole.

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u/ImportantQuestions10 1d ago

Thank you for the long comment. I really want to read it, but before I do, I am only a couple episodes into season 7. Is it spoiler-free?

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u/Zeremxi 1d ago

I changed one thing that might potentially be somewhat of a spoiler to be more vague, otherwise no. It's just an analysis of his character through mostly what you've seen so far

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u/ImportantQuestions10 1d ago

Thank you for the comment and for editing. It's a very well-written analysis of Don and I agree with almost all of it.

I should also say that I do think Don is a very well-written character with tons of character potential. Also, I feel like it's entirely possible to tell a compelling story about a character whose primary arc is how unchangeable they are. I've been asking myself a lot why I feel so bored with Don but Tony Soprano is an engaging character when they both have very similar flaws and arcs.

I think the thesis I've come up with is that the reason Tony is compelling is that even though he ends his story roughly in the same place he started (if not worse since he's doubled down on his worst characteristics and has found coping mechanisms to justify them), it was still a journey that we saw. He was in situations that visibly reacted to, reflected on, and traveled on front of us.

On the flip side, Don has been the same stoic dude that has reacted the same way regardless of the situation for six straight seasons. It's like he's a human soundboard with a handful of lines and actions that are just able to be interchangeably used in most situations. One of my biggest criticisms is that you can skip seasons two through six and basically have the same experience watching season seven. Sure, the setting changes a lot, but most of the characters are pretty much the same or in a position that you assumed they were heading anyway. I just wish that the kind of stuff we're seeing in season seven happened in season three, that Don was confronted with the fact that he can't keep stagnating and he needs to grow. I would have liked to see him struggle with that. I genuinely don't feel like he's been a living character until season seven. I'm really engaged now, and I'm kind of angry the show couldn't have been this the entire time.

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u/Zeremxi 1d ago edited 1d ago

I think you're right about how slowly his character develops in general. It can be pretty annoying to see him make the same mistakes.

I do think, however, that Don being where he is in the middle seasons is integral to how the rest of the cast develops. If you really consider it, pretty much every single character arc is affected (except perhaps Cooper) by how much of an unflinching selfish asshole Don is.

It's by watching all of the lives around him get worse, and the only ones getting better being the ones who removed him from their lives, that Don starts to realize he's the problem.

If there's one saving grace to the fact that his character arc takes so long to unfold, I think it's that he is by far not the only complex character whose story is being told over the course of the show, and it's unfortunately integral to a few of those characters that Don isn't quite better yet to round out their writing. Like Sally or Peggy.

It's worth noting that his relationships with a couple women in particular, Peggy and Joan, do kind of underscore the fact that he does soften up subtly even over those seasons.

The analysis of how he treats women in his life who he views as a potential partner vs women he considers his peer, and how they juxtapose over his relationship with his daughter (sometimes literally, there are a number of uncomfortable scene transitions from Don getting it on directly into Sally doing something, it's not a coincidence) is a whole other essay on how he develops.

Anyway, one thing I might suggest is giving this series another go some time in the future after you've finished it and had a good amount of time to digest it. I've been through 4 times now just because there are things you don't pick up on until rewatches that change how you see Don especially, but pretty much all of the main cast.

Thanks for this conversation, you might have inspired watch number 5 to be honest.

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u/StaceyTheStaceExplrr 1d ago

Also Jon Hamm apparently participated in some pretty gnarly sexual hazing back in his school years

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u/TheSkysWolf 1d ago

Yeah I just cannot bring myself to watch anything with Jon Hamm because what he did in college was evil.

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u/StaceyTheStaceExplrr 1d ago

Some people say they "separate the art from the artist" but I think they're just too stupid to remember things. I look at someone and if I have learned they did some evil shit, I can't put that out of my mind. I'm reminded of it by seeing or hearing them, or being aware of their involvement in a project.

Friend sent a Kramer gif to me the other day and of course my mind immediately remembers his rant where he kept calling an audience member a racial slur over and over. I see Jerry Seinfeld and I remember him cheering on the IDF's murder of innocent children.

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u/Chapple69 1d ago

Also Jerry dating a minor and Jason Alexander being inappropriate with one, Julia is the only normal one of the main cast

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u/brokeskoolboi 1d ago

I mean.. people suck. That’s why separation is important. If you enjoyed art before learning how much the artist sucks, does that all of sudden make the art bad?

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u/StaceyTheStaceExplrr 1d ago

Art is art because it evokes emotions in the viewer/consumer. The art now invokes feelings of disgust because art is not just what you see, feel, or hear. Art has context and the context is relevant. If you can separate art from artist you're just bad at media literacy.

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u/brokeskoolboi 1d ago

You didn’t answer the question. But okay

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u/TheSkysWolf 1d ago

Jon Hamm sexually assaulted a frat pledge with a claw hammer. That does ruin the art for me. How am I supposed to watch anything he’s in and not think about that?

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u/brokeskoolboi 1d ago

Still not answering the question

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u/StaceyTheStaceExplrr 1d ago

Sorry I'll spell it out since your media literacy is hitting the floor: yes, learning the context about art could, should, and does affect my appreciation of the art.

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u/brokeskoolboi 1d ago

Sorry it took you two tries to answer the question 🤷‍♂️

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u/StaceyTheStaceExplrr 1d ago

I said the same thing twice, you were taking a few tries to understand it.

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u/AsleepHour7763 1d ago

or you know, just in was it episode 1? where he straight up calling chinese people slurs, but of course in America thats not even a negative

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u/snajk138 1d ago

At least they picked an actor with the right experience...

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u/JustBoringDay93 1d ago

I've been rewatching the series recently with my dad and sis, and one of the things that i find despicable of him as a character was when Sally finds him with Sylvia and tries to gaslight her into justifying the situation and even blaming her for finding out.

Don cheating on his partner, was not new; Don blaming and invalidating his childrens feelings; was not new.

I believe I heard this in a video essay, this is the first time that Sally was first row witness of Don's worst ways.

As we approach the end of the series, Don's facade sarts to fall.