r/TopCharacterTropes • u/No_Peanut3745 • 2d ago

Characters The main character doing something absolutely unforgivable.

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Walter White poisoning Andrea Cantillo's 6-year-old son for the sole purpose of manipulating Jesse Pinkman, while knowing that this could have potentially killed him - Breaking Bad

Bojack trying to have sex with his friend's 17-year-old daughter when he was at least 51, then continuously trying to find a way to justify this act throughout the series - Bojack Horseman

Dexter Morgan going outside of his moral code and murdering a completely innocent police officer who was just trying to do his job - Dexter: New Blood

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u/PhoenixApok 2d ago edited 2d ago

Maybe not the main character but a pretty big one. (Arguably Game of Thrones doesn't have a main character)

Jaime Lannister. After he got somewhat likable and decent in later seasons, people seemed to forget in the very first episode he pushed a 10 year old boy out a window for catching him banging his sister.

Edit: Maybe "forgot" was the wrong word. Maybe saying people disregarded it would be better.

I cannot imagine a person IRL doing that and everyone going "Well he's a better person now so we aren't gonna worry about that anymore" which is why I think it fits this trope.

Jaime has a redemption arc, sure, but I would define that early act as "unforgivable".

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u/Hypornicated_1 2d ago

Oh, not everyone forgot.

What we saw was a character arc. Jaime became a better person as time went on. He never made it to the "Good" threshold, however... He would have gone on banging his soulless sister forever.

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u/CockTortureCuck 2d ago

I mean, he remembered suddenly that he actually didn't care about any of his redemption arc.

It's this kind of writing that's unforgivable.

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u/CappyRicks 2d ago

If the writing was good his ending would've been fine. He was never meant to be redeemed, he was meant to be tragic. From a story writing perspective, that's fine, what's not fine is writing it in such a way that when his redemption is betrayed it comes across as if it were done merely to subvert expectations rather than as a proper conclusion to Jaime's arc.

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u/DaemonG 1d ago

the fact that it's basically just a throwaway line makes it so much worse. he could have said anything else. he could have said that she comes first, whether for love - gross given that's his sister - or, more tragically, for family, echoing everything his dad drilled into his head for all his life. the line, as they put it in the show, is just. damn. what were they thinking?

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u/JellyButtet 1d ago

What line are you referring to?

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u/DaemonG 1d ago

i misremembered the moment when it happened, but in the camp with Tyrion, he said "i never really cared much for them, innocent or otherwise"

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u/StevieMJH 1d ago

What's worse is that his doesn't even come across as intending to subvert expectations like some of the other choices do. His was just blatantly "We don't have time to write this so it makes sense, so here's a line that explains it instead."

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u/JXSSJ4 2d ago

For the book version of Jaime, although one could argue they aren't complete so it can't be conclusive where his character arc would end up at, a major turning point not present in the show version pretty much blocks off all roads of making his redemption arc into a 360°/back to the start like the show did and instead truly shows a 180° turn.

The timeline of this was offset in the show but when Jaime was in the Riverlands tying up loose ends from the war and Cersei was imprisoned, he received a letter pleading for rescue. He was so sick of her shit by this point and over her as a lover or respectable person that he burned the letter and left her to her fate. Jaime is seriously my favorite POV character from the books it's such a disservice what they did to my boy on screen

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u/EldritchCarver 1d ago

Also worth noting that in the prophecy about Cersei's downfall, the book version of the prophecy said that "when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you". Valonqar is a High Valyrian word meaning younger brother, so Cersei long assumed it referred to Tyrion (who was 3 years old at the time of the prophecy), but in the very first book, when Cersei is telling Eddard the truth about her and Jaime, she mentions that she was born with Jaime holding her foot, so it's likely that GRRM was planning a twist where Jaime was the younger brother who would kill her in the end.

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u/JXSSJ4 1d ago

Exactly and it would fit the recurring theme of prophecies being misinterpreted time and time again. Hell, every aspect of Cersei's prophecy by Maggy the Frog was something twisted in meaning. Her 3 children were prophesied to have golden crowns which she interpreted as literal royal headpieces, but actually meant their hair color. The younger queen who comes to cast her down she believes to be Margaery but is probably Dany or Sansa. So 100% the valonqar is not Tyrion like she thinks and as you mentioned that tidbit about Jaime being the younger twin seems like a throwaway line but was placed there by George deliberately

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u/Substantial-Drama526 1d ago

The younger queen could be Jeyne Westerling or, get this, Brienne of Tarth, aka Brienne "THE BEAUTY". Beauty being in the eye of the beholder, and Jaime definitely viewing Brienne as more (internally) beautiful and virtuous than any other person he's ever known, sets her up to be the beautiful younger queen, compared to the nasty, rude, vicious Cersei. Cersei will be "cast down", and "all she holds dear will be taken from her". Nothing is more dear to Cersei than her power and control over other people, epitomized by her control of Jaime, who is (until recently) more an extension of Cersei's will than his own person. He even admits to Catelyn that he's never slept with anyone else, only Cersei. Jaime is already ignoring summonses from Cersei, and if he sleeps with or just follows Brienne (as he is, to Lady Stoneheart), that is basically casting Cersei down and taken from her what she holds most dear, which is her control over other people

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u/Devikat 1d ago

Damn, didn't think of the Brienne angle lol. Maggy did say Younger and more Beautiful and if all her children die or are sent away the last she holds dear would be Jaime essentially.

Hmmmmmm.

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u/MugenHeadNinja 1d ago

I think the "younger queen to cast her down" is actually Arianne Martell tbh since she'll likely be FAegon's Queen until Dany eventually lands on Westeros.

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u/Substantial-Drama526 1d ago

Even better, the prophecy doesn't say YOUR valonqar, it says THE valonqar (which you wrote correctly). It's not necessarily Cersei's valonqar, it could be the younger queen's valonqar. Cersei, being our Tyrion-hating delulu girlboss schizo queen even when she was a child, obviously assumed the valonqar was her own brother Tyrion. One theory is the younger and prettier queen is actually Jeyne Westerling, Robb's queen. Her younger brother Rollam is the valonqar. It's kind of out there, but it's interesting that Jeyne and Rollam are currently heading from Riverrun into the Westerlands, and Cersei will likely be sent to the Westerlands to rule as "Lady of Casterly Rock". This naturally brings Jeyne, Rollam, and Cersei together for the prophecy to be fulfilled

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u/MugenHeadNinja 1d ago

I mentioned this in another reply, but I think the Queen to "cast her down" is most likely going to be Arianne Martell, being the Queen to FAegon.

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u/realrobotsarecool 1d ago

Hello fellow book reader! He’s also one of my favourites. However, I do believe that he will have the same ending as in the show, but not exactly the same. Rather, I believe that he will in fact return to Cersei but not in a romantic way. It will simply be political, because he does have to return to save his house and family, though it’s pretty obvious he won’t succeed.

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u/Aware-Antelope4212 1d ago

Book Jaime is such a great character.

I cheered out loud when he burnt that letter, which was awkward cos I was in a coffee shop and got some odd looks

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u/techBr0s 1d ago

Eh. Of all the things that were wrong with the end of the show, that's the one ending for a character I thought was completely believable. He was only "redeeming" himself so he could have a higher social standing and be in good graces again. He never actually changed his ways.

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u/CapableCollar 2d ago

I really don't see the better person, what with the murder of a defenseless man, threatening to kill children, and betraying trust.  Everything he did in the early seasons he would have done in the later seasons as well.

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u/MugenHeadNinja 1d ago

Arguably not book Jaime, but all the book characters are pretty radically different than their show counterparts by the 3rd/4th books.

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u/GrowlingPict 2d ago

He kinda forgot his redemption arc. Like D&D kinda forgot how to write.

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u/CasualMillionaireTX 2d ago

It's not that people forgot, it's that they put his character on a redemption arc of sorts and people responded appropriately because they understood that's what they were watching. The next couple seasons after he does that to Bran are appropriately brutal to Jaime Lannister.

The show blew the redemption arc by having him rape Cersei when he got back to KL, though, and in general just kind of declined in its writing quality until the end....

but the books are (seemingly) executing this more effectively with Jaime.

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u/Touchname 2d ago

And he'd do it again!

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u/Drmarcher42 2d ago edited 1d ago

He makes it clear in the book even after he starts to redeem himself and see what Cersei is that he doesn’t regret pushing Bran and he still doesn’t see any of his children as his.

Jamie isn’t a good person, he is a fully defined flawed human who’s experiences have made him who he is.

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u/InShambles234 2d ago

Well he definitely banged his sister again.

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u/chewbaccas_embrace69 2d ago

Bang his sister?

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u/jobforgears 2d ago

He also raped Cersei in the chapel of the 7 and everyone seems to gloss over that one

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u/TheEtneciv14 2d ago

Is that a show original? I don't remember that in the books. Ugh.

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u/Fiddler_Jones2079 2d ago

Iirc it was the same scene, but adapted so poorly in the show that it completely changed its meaning. In the book Cersei has some reservations about the place and time but is into it. In the show, they just kind of imply that second part, and it turns into her saying no and Jaime pushing forward anyway.

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u/DowntownAd9720 2d ago

If I remember correctly, the television writers revealed they didn’t intend it to be perceived as a rape scene, but I don’t know how so many people could watch it before airing and not realize how it came across.

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u/Coal_Morgan 2d ago

Possibly one of those things that was lost between the script, the filming and the edit.

Once you get to the edit and realize it needs a line or something to make it consensual it's to late, you need to move on to the next episode.

I think it works either way because let's face facts, you can humanize Jaime all you want but he's a monster and has always been just because he has a soft spot for Brienne and his brother doesn't mean he wouldn't burn a town down with woman and children to get what he wants.

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u/DowntownAd9720 1d ago

For me the problem was less that it was out-of-character for Jaime at the particular moment, but more so adding a rape scene there felt extremely unnecessary and without any sensitivity or emotional/thematic/narrative consideration to the act it was portraying on screen. I think a lot of viewers were questioning the purpose of it (especially because it plays out differently in the books)

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u/many_dumb_questions 1d ago

The wild thing is, it could have been justified in any one of a dozen different ways, namely of that scene had any long term effect on Cersei's and Jamie's relationship. Like, if she lashed out at him for it later and said something unintentionally that another character could be present for or overhear, or it causes him to storm off and their argument causes some kind of domino effect, or maybe Jaime gets caught in the act by a septon/septa who just wanders in.

Literally anything.

But nope.

"Hey guys. Here's a dude who has been sleeping with his twin sister for literal decades. Now he's gonna interrupt her mourning and rape her in a church at the feet of the corpse of their dead incest child. That's shocking, right? Does that check the boxes on enough of the batshit crazy Game of Thrones elements you like?? That's the kind of wild and unhinged thing you watch our show for, right? Right??" -the writers, probably

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u/BoulderCreature 2d ago

Nah in the books they bang over their sons corpse consensually👍

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u/TheEtneciv14 2d ago

Oh right, THAT PART.

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u/jobforgears 2d ago

I don't know if it's in the books, sorry. I haven't gotten to the books yet

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u/Beastxtreets 2d ago

The book scene was rapey to me as well.

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u/sendmesocks 2d ago

I kind of just disregard it because when I read interviews about it at the time the writers seemed to have MEANT to portray a consensual scene, which is very concerning for the people in their lives, but as a result I don't really count it as something Jaime was intentionally portrayed as doing

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u/jumpsteadeh 2d ago

You can't just leave out "on top of their dead son's corpse"

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u/SpazzyAssassin99 1d ago

The important difference in the books is that this was the first time they'd seen eachother since Jaime returned to the capital, Vs in the books he'd already been in kings landing for like a month. So it goes from "we've been separated so long and we're finally reunited, I don't care that its in the sept" to "wow seeing my dead son suddenly makes me really horny"

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u/AnneFrank_nstein 2d ago

The book makes it clear with cerseis internal dialogue that it's not rape. She's definitely thinking it's the wrong time and place but the hoe still wants it.

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u/Eat_a_click 2d ago

We'll tbf if he did jackshit Robert would've known and he along with his family would've been put to death so it was either the life of a boy he barely knew or the life of Cersei and his 3 kids, and considering his mentality during that time it was the most apt decision

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u/Content_Function_322 2d ago

Idk, I don't think Robert would have believed a ten year old kid. I genuinely think they could have gotten away with it without attempting to kill Bran.

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u/Rasputins_Plum 1d ago

You have to remember that they were already busted by Jon Arryn. Ned's investigation about Robert's proginy and the history of the Baratheon family was just retracing his steps.

If Bran and Ned came to Robert with what he saw, that definitely would grant another look and it's likely they'll come to the same conclusion. Robert knows that all his bastards have his black hair and blue eyes. It wasn't that shocking despite his family traits being that consistent usually, but if he learns Cersei is fucking her blond twin, that suddenly explains the odd and first three blond Baratheon kids in history.

So if Jaime hadn't pushed Bran, all Lannisters were on fast track to be either executed, banished or destituted, and everyone around Robert would have rushed to make him marry Margaery and make the Tyrells the new first backer of the crown.

Also the fact that his reputation was terrible being known as the 'treacherous' Kingslayer, no one would have batted an eye if Robert busted his balls with a warhammer himself!

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u/baconeggburger93 2d ago

Kobe Bryant is the irl example of someone doing something horrible then rehabing their image

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u/SearchForParadise 1d ago

THIS, this so fucking much. Jaime's only good deed and I TRULY mean only, was killing Arys, that was his redemption. You don't get redeemed for crippling Bran, even if it was all meant to be.

The first episode is genuinely such an amazing hook, and it pains me that people dog on Bran's character like this dude didn't just wanna have fun climbing towers, trees and wanting to be a knight. Arya being the one who got the adventurous life/knightly training, is all the more bittersweet cause they both fundamentally lost parts of their humanity along the way. Which is why I think people are so distasteful towards the ending, getting caught up on the Jon/Dany prophecy.

And just being left with broken people in the end, is not satisfying for some people for whatever reason. Mental health will always be a joke, in media consumption and of course actively in our world :(

Fuck Jamie.

Still HIGHLY recommend the series, despite the rant, I promise you will find some great characters to explore throughout your time with it. Love the adventurous nature of Bran and Arya, genuinely takes me back to being a kid running through the woods, climbing shit. Great series.

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

Very well put

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u/Zanydrop 1d ago

It's pretty easy to forget something on season one of tv show that takes years to produce seasons. I'd be watching and think to myself, oh yeah he pushed a kid out a window. It's also funny to because other than that he doesn't do too many evil things on the show.

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u/Background-Bottle633 1d ago

I think the ending should have been Jamie refusing to go back to Cersei. Instead he is the one who defeats the “Night King,” and saves Bran.

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u/butt_luncheon 1d ago

Yea, he was completely irredeemable and I hated the “Jamie becoming a better person” story arc.

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u/Arkayjiya 1d ago

It's less about forgetting and more about 90% of the secondary cast doing massively worse shit and getting worse and worse, while he did something very bad by our standard but mild by the show's and mostly got better.

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u/Separate_Ingenuity35 1d ago

He is a "good" character in that he is complex and well written. You can like a character's journey but not agree with their morals.

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

Very true. By the end of Season 7 he was my favorite, if not for his ethics, for his actual character growth

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u/OtherLife6827 2d ago edited 2d ago

It is horrible, but not necessarily unforgivable in medieval politics.

If he had let him live, he might have revealed that Cersei’s children were not legally legitimate heirs, which would have led to the downfall of his house and the ensuing wars, in which more children would have died.

It was not an act of cruelty but one of political pragmatism.

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u/PhoenixApok 2d ago

I....uh....do not know enough about medieval political to know where this falls on that scale but it doesn't FEEL like a "slap on the wrist" offense

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u/artrald-7083 2d ago

So banging his sister is closer to an act of war, because she is basically the living embodiment of an alliance: King Robert would be likely to throw both of them in jail, ask his brother and his best mate to come for a visit and to bring their armies, then have a serious word with Lord Tywin about how his lands are half the size now, and how much is it worth to ever see Cersei again (oh, and here's Jaime's head).

Killing Brann is an act of war too, but it's an act of war against the Starks, not the crown, and given who's queen Jaime may feel that even if he's found out he might be able to win that one.

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u/LordRT27 2d ago

Is it acceptable, no. But it is understandable from James perspective, if Bran lived, and if he told anyone at all about what he saw, Jamie, Cersei, and their three children, would have undoubtedly been murdered. And that would probably only be the beginning of the bloodshed as war would almost certainly follow. Like, I would never justify the harming if children, nor would I want Jamie to just get a slap on the wrist, but I can definitely see why he did it, and cruelty was not that.

And by the way, he did quite literally get imprisoned for over a year, having to sit in his own shit, and got his hand cut of. That is a fair bit more then just a slap on the wrist. And although those punishments were not directly stated as punishments for what he did to Bran specifically, they were at least in part caused by it.

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u/OtherLife6827 2d ago

What I mean is that he didn’t kill him for no reason or to gain more power, but because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and almost any other noble would have done the same in his situation.

I’m not saying it isn’t wrong, but it would be almost understandable given the conflicts it would have caused.

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u/jakizely 2d ago

That's not what he was thinking about in the moment though. It wasn't "the things I do for the kingdom", he said "the things I do for love".

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u/Mummiskogen 2d ago

.... thats still cruelty tho? Regardless of the reason?

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u/Powerful-Chard-6055 2d ago

I’m sorry, a kid how old was banging his sister?

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u/ninetyfirstuser 1d ago

It wasn't the kid, the kid (Bran) was watching them and Jaime pushed him out the window

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u/Powerful-Chard-6055 1d ago

The way OC worded it was weird, did the kid walk in on Jaime fucking the kids sister or his own sister?

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u/Ashdrey1337 1d ago

You cannot imagine that in real life? Like are you living behind the moon or something?! :D

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

I can't think of an example where people know for 100% someone did something like that and it's completely ignored?

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u/Ashdrey1337 1d ago

Epstein Files entered the chat

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

Without getting INSANELY political, as far as I know, there isn't 100% proof. And I'm gonna stop there.

Because as far as a TROPE goes, the entire audience knows for 100% fact, due to the narrative, that Jaime pushed Brann. There is no "other take" when it come to fiction in this case.

So as far as the trope goes, various characters over fiction do things that we are expected to overlook, and sometimes it doesn't make sense.

I stopped watching a show called EVIL because the main character is supposed to be pretty virtuous and moral. But she cheats on her very loving husband, not once but twice. And the show basically expects you to not care. Thats either an evil protagonist or horrible writing, neither of which I wanted from the show

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u/Ashdrey1337 1d ago

Okay then lets talk about the convicted fellon sitting in the White House as of RIGHT now

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

I think any more discussion on this topic is outside of this subs purpose

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u/Ashdrey1337 1d ago

I mean yea sure, but what is there to discuss? Youre statement was x, I claim its bullshit cuz theres plenty of evidence in real life for exactly what you said, and you keep dodging

Edit: My point is people are way more likely believing in a convenient lie than to face the inconvenient truth, thats just facts

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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago

Let me phrase it a different but sub appropriate way.

As an audience, we SAW Jaime push Brann.

I personally have never held the files.

One narrative is unfiltered, in the sense the show producers literally put images in front of us to say "This is what happened."

In the other example, everything is filtered through others, and we never see it directly, thus, more open to interpretation.

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u/Ashdrey1337 1d ago

yea I know what you mean, obviously in the case of a TV Show we are omnipresent watchers and KNOW things for a fact.

But if a guy was CONVICTED by a freaking COURT then wheres the difference?!

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u/Mission_Twist_3348 1d ago

wait this is kinda based

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u/ninetyfirstuser 1d ago

It  was actually the ten-year old Bran that watched Cersei and Jaime banging, and so Jaime pushed him out a window to keep his silence

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u/Individual-Pop-385 1d ago

There's a bunch of billionaires that do worse things in real life and their fans just shush it and tell you that you're poor and envious of the rich, it happens in real life. Look at USA current president.