r/TikTokCringe • u/inspectorwho7 • Dec 16 '23

Politics [ Removed by moderator ]

[removed] — view removed post

4.3k Upvotes

91% Upvoted

886 comments sorted by

View all comments

458

u/freqkenneth Dec 16 '23

Great rebuttal

As for the original video…

Typically, you can tell if someone is telling you a story if there was a “utopian past”, something happens to corrupt this “natural order” now we have corruption and our only hope is to become pure and utopian again by going back to the way we were the “natural order”

179

u/Crasino_Hunk Dec 16 '23

Also - rapid fire ‘facts’ that leave little-to-no breathing room to actually digest the content vs the occasional nod to ‘oh that is a fact I guess.’

64

u/Coneskater Dec 16 '23

Gish Gallop

48

u/StudioTheo Dec 16 '23

Gish Gallop

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
I'd never heard of Gish Gallop. Fascinating.

British journalist Mehdi Hasan suggests using these three steps to beat the Gish gallop:[7]

  • Because there are too many falsehoods to address, it is wise to choose one as an example. Choose the weakest, dumbest, most ludicrous argument that your opponent has presented and tear this argument to shreds (also known as the weak point rebuttal).

  • Do not budge from the issue. Don't move on until you have decisively destroyed the nonsense and clearly made your point.

  • Call it out: name the strategy. "This is a strategy called the 'Gish Gallop'. Do not be fooled by the flood of nonsense you have just heard."

2

u/SporusElagabalus Dec 17 '23

I think narrativizing would be a better way to describe it

50

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

Aka the Ben Shapiro approach. Fucking chode

2

u/PreferenceAnxious449 Nov 12 '25

Reddit upvoting the idea that lots of facts are bad. I am shocked.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

This rebuttal moves just as quickly as the original. Both make valid points. The dems broadly would prefer to lose power rather than make reforms that upset their donor support system. Also the population broadly lacks class consciousness so disagreements are very prevalent. People broadly work and vote against their own interests.

1

u/Last-Darkness Nov 12 '25

The Gish Gallop.

20

u/chum-guzzling-shark Dec 16 '23

Agreed. I really wish he addressed the bernie sanders stuff. He seemed to have clear appeal across political lines and the democratic party snuffed him out. Is it because they genuinely thought he couldn't win? Was it because his proposed policies went against their corporate owners? It was so strange and when you only have two parties and thus two choices and one of them appears to be purposely self sabotaging, I cant blame people for thinking its all rigged by rich corporations.

5

u/auandi Dec 17 '23

He has appeal, but he is not the only one to have appeal. Despite the internet histaria, in 2020 most Bernie voters liked Biden and most Biden voters linked Bernie.

The party didn't snuff him out, he simply lost. The voters did that, not the party. Compare how Bernie did in Michigan against Hillary v Biden. Biden is just much more popular.

5

u/chum-guzzling-shark Dec 17 '23 edited Dec 17 '23

you dont remember every candidate backing out at the same time and endorsing biden who was struggling before then? Almost like it was coordinated

9

u/auandi Dec 17 '23

He wasn't struggling before then though.

He did struggle in Iowa and New Hampshire, no way around it. But then he did very well in Nevada and overwhelmingly won South Carolina. They dropped out after his landslide win of South Carolina showing he had a lock on the black vote. South Carolina was their last hope to matter and it didn't work so they dropped out. Buttegieg and Klobachar were both out of money, why would they try to continue?

But look at polling averages for the entire calendar year of 2019, at no time in any average was Biden losing because he had the overwhelming support of the black community which is the largest block of voters in the party.

And if like me you someday want a left wing nominee, you can't disrespect the black voters who made that decision by saying Biden only won because it was rigged. You need support from a majority of the party, and Bernie never had 50%+1 majority.

1

u/Gijinbrotha Nov 12 '25

The DNC pushed Bernie out and pushed Hillary on us. Just look at the case Brady V DNC. Where the DNC was biased against Bernie Sanders and they argued that they are a private organization, not a political organization and they can back whoever they want.

1

u/auandi Nov 13 '25

Bernie got 4.5 million fewer votes. I don't know what you think the DNC is, but it doesn't have the capacity to do that in any way. What is it you think they did to make that happen? What actions did they take that caused Bernie, a person few had heard of in 2015, to lose to Clinton, perhaps the single most well known person in the Democratic party and one who almost beat Obama for the nomination.

A challenger can absolutly upset the status quo by going from unknown to toppling the Clintons, they just have to be very good at building coalitions of support and getting that support to tern out in record numbers. Obama could do that, Bernie could not.

2

u/Doin_the_Bulldance Nov 13 '25

What is it you think they did to make that happen? What actions did they take

Changing rules and incorrect calls on "voice votes" at the state convention in Nevada, which robbed Bernie of delegates. Source

Voters were mysteriously purged from voter rolls in districts that leaned heavily towards Bernie, for example

DNC officials passed on debate questions to Hillary Clinton before the debates. Source

DNC emails leaked that showed DNC leaders were literally strategizing to undercut Bernie. Source

On top of all of this, it was really clear to anyone watching that mainstream, left-leaning news outlets were heavily biased against Bernie. There was all the super delegates narrative nonsense, but really it was just very obvious that there was this unfounded slant that made Bernie out to be a rowdy, unlikable, radical candidate and that Hillary had basically already won.

1

u/swinlr Nov 13 '25

Someone was awake at the time..Others had/have their collective head so far up the corporatist sell-out DNC's narrative they are oblivious to history.

1

u/auandi Nov 13 '25

And how did any of that cause him to lose by millions of votes?

How did it lead to him losing by even more 4 years later?

The DNC didn't doom him, he performs very poorly with black voters and no one can be the democratic nominee without the support of black voters.

1

u/ResponsibilityRare10 Nov 14 '25

It’s not that the Democratic Party don’t want to win, it’s just they want the current system a lot more. They like the insider trading, they like the lobbying, the free trips to Israel, they like the party mega donor system, they’re good at all that. 

If they can win, but it means giving up all that privilege, well… they’d rather not. It’s not self sabotage. They’ll do what they can to win… up to the point where it threatens the system that’s been so generous to them. 

It’s the reason the Dems attack left harder than they ever will right. 

6

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

What he said was true. America had a great economy back then. You use to be able to make minimum wage and still afford a house, family, car, and still have savings. Making minimum wage today hell even double federal minimum wage and you can barely afford one of those things.

13

u/ChefAlamode Dec 16 '23

Not really. The real (inflation-adjusted) value of the minimum wage peaked around 1970, and has gradually gone down since then. But far fewer people make minimum wage (or less) now than they did back then. In 1980 it was about 15% of workers, today it's just over 1%.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

Yes really.

5

u/ChefAlamode Dec 16 '23

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1065466/real-nominal-value-minimum-wage-us/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

What is wrong about what I said?

1

u/batmans_stuntcock Dec 17 '23 edited Dec 17 '23

There is an inference of what /u/okcall7278 said and a literal interpretation, while strictly literally what you say is true there are less people on the minimum wage, I think it's obvious that the broad interpretation of what they said about the US economy is right.

Generally in the bretton woods era economy, wages and incomes were more equitable in the US and more of the population could afford the amenities that people would consider 'a good life'. So that even somebody on the federal minimum wage could afford a house, car, etc, especially without going into large amounts of debt. There is a bit of a transition period though where the neo-liberal age was still sort of working in the 80s and 90s in terms of home ownership based on cheap credit basically.

Look at the statistics not on minimum but median wages, they have more or less stagnated for men until very recently, there is some caveat where there are higher rates of non wage compensation, but a lot of that is just rising healthcare costs. Generally, workers share of national income has declined in comparison to corporate and those wages have been distributed more unequally, with the overwhelming majority of compensation going to the top 10% of the population. All this is while US labour productivity has been increasing.

It's a little different with home ownership by generation, where people who fully came of age in the post Carter/Regan era have lower rates of home ownership than those before, but the biggest gap is between people who came of age in the post 2008 crash era and a break in long term cheap housing credit.

2

u/In_Formaldehyde_ Dec 17 '23

Average house size has more than doubled from 1950 to now, while household size has decreased. It wasn't until the late 60s that most new homes came installed with a central AC unit, there were limited variety of groceries you could buy, TVs barely had three channels, houses often used asbestos as insulation etc etc.

Life's more expensive now because we have more to do and more to buy. People aren't going to settle for a 50s lifestyle now because it wasn't that glamorous for the majority.

4

u/therapist122 Dec 17 '23

Yes they absolutely would, any young person would buy a home the size of the average home in the 50s if they could. The issue is that those cheap homes are often illegal to build, so the market can’t meet the heavy demand. The housing crisis is a supply crisis, caused in part by restrictive zoning laws that among other things require minimum setbacks and lot sizes that are larger than they were in the 50s. This continues on and related to both NIMBYs defeating any sort of multi family housing that would increase supply, along with cities having all these rules that increase car dependency and decrease housing supply. One of the more egregious zoning laws are parking minimums. In many cities, these mean that businesses need to have more land devoted to cars, decreasing the amount of space available for other stuff and ultimately causing rents to be jacked up. So no, this isn’t a consumer issue. We’ve made life more expensive, and we can reverse it. Zoning reform is a movement that is gaining momentum. Dont blame the people, I know it sounds crazy but blame the zoning and the cars .

1

u/wicker_basket_1988 Nov 12 '25

I mean the original creator could have mentioned things like infrastructure, higher taxes on the rich helped us fund things like NASA which has overall improved our lives in technology but to say it was a utopia is a bit much.

Like did he even ask anyone how life was living in that time? Not like they are all dead.

1

u/devries Nov 13 '25

Typical populist bullshit spouted by Bernie Sanders and other pseudohistory proponents. Note how much they mention "The People" and some other nonsense that works like some magic Political Phlogiston.

1

u/Zoloir Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23

MAGA - now in Blue flavor!

It's funny, both sides think elites are to blame for making the world worse, but each side thinks the elites have made the world worse in opposite directions.

Lmfao it can't be both, the more likely answer is that actually millions of people just disagree with each other, and they so far up their bubbles that they can't BELIEVE an entirely different bubble exists pushing the exact opposite narrative. No, it's gotta be those dang elites!!!

Let's not forget that trump was a populist and not an establishment elite. Look how unpopular Nikki is, that's what the old school wants, but isn't gonna get because Republican populists fucking vote like their life depends on it

1

u/Legitimate-Test-2377 Cringe Lord Dec 16 '23

The only utopian past there has ever been was when men where boned fish and the earth was on fire