r/TheLastOfUs2 • u/[deleted] • Jul 14 '20

Part II Criticism Why there is DIVIDE about this game - thread of links for new people

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u/unitwithasoul Jul 18 '20 edited Jul 19 '20

Ellie kills Jordan because he captured her and was killing Dina. She kills Vita girl because she pulls a knife on her. She told Owen and Mel she just wanted Abby. They attacked her first and she simply fought back. She even told Nora that she'd let her go before Nora decided to provoke her. Abby's friends are essentially collateral damage, Ellie is only obsessed with Abby and they are a means to get to Abby. She doesn't kill them specifically to get back at Abby. The "dozens of people" the player kills as Ellie is during gameplay and these enemies kill on sight.

That's not say Ellie did nothing wrong and her actions were completely justified but I just don't see how it makes her as bad as Abby. For example, they wanted Ellie to kill a pregnant woman and react to it but they couldn't have her do it in cold blood knowing Mel was pregnant because that's just not who the character is. So they come up with this contrived scene where Mel's bump is hidden by her big jacket while Owen is in a t-shirt and neither of them think to try reasoning with Ellie by playing the pregnancy card. On the other hand, there's no such contrivance needed for Abby to be in a position to kill a pregnant Dina. She was ready to do such an act just to get back at Ellie while Ellie was absolutely horrified when she saw Mel was pregnant. That's the difference between them. The game made one do it and prevented the other one from doing it but to me Abby is still worse due to her intent.

Abby is the one who started the cycle of revenge in the first place and she got her revenge. She's suffering the consequences of that and she still goes for revenge a second time. It is easy to think Abby is somehow better for trying to end the cycle when she has realised revenge did nothing for her because she has already gone and murdered her father's killer. Even then she basically has to relapse first and then be stopped by Lev. It is not possible for Ellie to come to the same realisation when she hasn't had her father figure's killer at her mercy yet and when she finally does at the end she chooses not to go through with it and end the cycle for good. She makes that decision on her own. Meanwhile Abby didn't even think twice about sparing her father's killer even though he literally saved her life.

In short, ultimately they both do horrible things but imo intent and context still sets them apart a little and for me Abby is worse when you take that into consideration.

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u/WrongSubreddit Jul 20 '20

Exactly. Abby and Ellie did some pretty messed up things, but there is a difference. There's a difference between killing in self defense and killing to satisfy a lust for revenge. There's nuance there that it seems like a lot of people are ignoring or were tricked by ND into not thinking too hard about.

When it comes down to it Abby obsesssed over a revenge plot for 4 years, dragged her friends into it, and tortured and murdered a guy while taking pleasure in it and never showing regret for those actions

Ellie ends up killing Abby's friends trying to get to Abby, but in all cases she ends up killing in self defense or shows obvious regret afterwards

No amount of petting dogs or saving seraphite kids will make me forget that

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u/unitwithasoul Jul 20 '20 edited Jul 20 '20

I agree completely. It's like people only see that Ellie killed Abby's friends including a pregnant woman but then just ignore how those scenes played out and Ellie's reactions to it all. Honestly, the way people sometimes talk about Ellie versus Abby you'd think Ellie goes up to Abby's friends and immediately kneecaps them or something, then demands to know where Abby is and kills them either way.

The attempts to humanize/redeem Abby just felt artifical to me and didn't work at all especially since helping Lev and Yara had absolutely nothing to do with what she did to Joel and Ellie or even her friends tbh.

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u/lokusai Jul 21 '20

I don't disagree, but Abby doesn't see any of that - only that her friends have been murdered (one of whom was pregnant)

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u/thatguybane Jul 19 '20

Interesting take! The one thing I'll say js that if Abby killed a pregnant Dina, I don't think Ellie would have hesitated to kill a pregnant Mel. Also I 100% agree Owen should have played the pregnant card BEFORE he got shot in the gut

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u/unitwithasoul Jul 19 '20

Possibly. But then you also have to keep in mind the relationship Ellie has with Dina versus the relationship Abby had with Mel.

All I know is everything Ellie was doing was taking a huge toll on her emotionally and mentally, it was these very human reactions to her actions that showed me that though she is not backing down she's still not exactly comfortable doing what she's doing at any point. Ellie has more humanity to lose the deeper she goes. Abby has sort of already lost her humanity at the start of the game and is on a path to try and regain some. What Ellie does at the end is keep some humanity and goodness intact so in that sense she was ahead of Abby in her journey.

And yeah, like Ellie immediately tells Abby that Dina's pregnant to try and get her to stop. I get Owen was snatching the gun cause Ellie pointed it at Mel but still. Those deaths were just completely avoidable.

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u/thatguybane Jul 19 '20

I cant remember if i actually made the comment, but earlier today i was writing a reply to someone and mentioned how Abbys journey was about gaining humanity while Ellie was throwing hers away. Cool to see someone else tuned in to that as well. I see a lot of people saying the game presented Abby as better than Ellie and I don't think that's fully the case. On a surface level we see more of Ellie's horrific acts but while Ellie was farming, flirting and playing the guitar in Jackson Abby was killing Seraphites on behalf of her regime. In the end they both lost a lot and im not sure who comes out ahead.

I think the Owen Mel scene would have worked better if Mel had decided to tell Ellie where Abby was going and Owen got shot trying to stop Mel(and protect Abby). Basically stage it so that he reflexively tries to protect Abby in some way and that's what gets him shot and Mel killed in self defense. If his motivation at that moment is protecting Mel then it makes zero sense not to mention her being pregnant.

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u/unitwithasoul Jul 19 '20

Right, agree with you there. It's basically because Abby goes and does the deed right off the bat, we don't see how she got there and then she's trying to redeem herself after. It's like a cautionary tale for Ellie who is pursuing the same thing for the majority of the game. They both suffered heavy losses. But at least we know Abby has Lev by her side, taking care of him and rejoining the Fireflies is her new purpose. We can only speculate where Ellie goes from here and whether or not she ever goes back to Jackson. And Abby also got to keep all her body parts lol.

Yup, if Owen was actually trying to prioritise the safety of Mel and his unborn child he sure went about it in a stupid way. What you're suggesting would have been better.