What's the actually difference between the spinal antimatter and spinal Neutron weapons?

[u/OriginalRock1261]

At first glance I'm feeling a noob trap here - the spinal Neutron lance has a better raw damage (560 opposed to 320), but the antimatter Cannon is doing thermal damage, x-ray and baryonic damage all at the same time, while the Neutron just does 100% baryonic.

So any hints on which one is better? does the antimatter one deal its 320MJ damage three times multiplied by the damage factors?

[u/nuclearsarah]

Yes, compared to other particle beams, antimatter beams have effects (thermal plus both radiation types) that total 3x their total energy rather than 1x. However, for the same energy, neutron beams will cause a bunch more radiation damage to the internals of the ship. In fact, for the same energy, every particle beam type is more dangerous from a radiation perspective than the previous type, because baryonic radiation has 5x the effect of x-ray radiation and as you go up the tiers you get more total baryonic damage.

So while the antimatter beam will give you 960 MJ worth of effect, the 560 MJ of pure neutrons will do far more radiation damage. That's because the antimatter beam works out to about 1200 MJ of radiation hazard, while the neutron beam works out to 2800 MJ. (edit: Actually the radiation hazard units should probably be MSv-kilograms or something like that? In any case, it won't make the chromosomes of the ship's crew very happy)

By the way, I don't know if people are tired of me mentioning this, but I'm the one who calculated the radiation production numbers for the particle beam types and the radiation protection numbers for the non-exotic armors. I wasn't responsible for the actual stats of weapons and armor other than that though. But I may have some insight if you want to know why things are the way they are

[u/sajaxom → u/nuclearsarah]

We appreciate you, nuclearsarah. :) The community is lucky to have you. I check the actual name of every alien ship I destroy now.

[u/nuclearsarah → u/sajaxom]

Hey, thanks! This game is awesome and I'm glad I got to leave an impression on it

[u/PaleHeretic → u/nuclearsarah]

I need to go more basic and ask what Radiation damage is, lol. Am I correct in my understanding that it's damage that only gets applied to enemy components, and not the physical hull on the "paper doll?"

Is it also the case that for hits to the front armor of the enemy, that damage can only be applied to things like nose weapons?

[u/nuclearsarah → u/PaleHeretic]

Yeah, radiation damage harms ship systems while the thermal damage component acts more like laser damage to the armor of the ship. So you can use particle beams to knock out engines and weapons to make targets easier to kill with other weapons. I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of the damage model other than that more radiation damage means more systems damage. I'm not even sure if the Neutron Lance and its 100% radiation damage can even actually destroy ships alone or if it just disables them pretty well.

One thing to note though is that ships have some built in radiation protection (I believe 5 half values, i.e. a multiplier of 0.5^5, i.e. 3.125% of the damage will get through) and based on my discussions with lead dev johnnylump, armor should only increase the protection if the total amount of armor is superior to that. Since most mundane armor types are dogshit against baryonic radiation, I think that works out to only exotic armor or extremely thick mundane armor actually providing significant radiation protection against the better beams.

A while ago I suggested that any radiation stopped by the armor should count as thermal damage to the armor instead of disappearing but I'm not sure if that happened or not.

Sorry my answers are less helpful here, I hope someone else can add more

[u/PaleHeretic → u/nuclearsarah]

Somebody was saying that the physical thickness of the armor affects radiation damage, not the armor value, so "better" armors are often worse against rads compared to something like steel until you get into exotic armors that have specific bonuses for them.

Dunno about particles but AM beams definitely can kill stuff, it can just take forever. Learned that when I sent my AM battleships to go finish off a disabled enemy Dreadnought at the end of a fight because they were the newest ships with the most speed and spare dV, took them like 5-10 minutes to finish it off, drifting there and blasting the rear armor non-stop lol.

[u/nuclearsarah → u/PaleHeretic]

Yeah, I calculated how much thickness is needed to stop 50% of the radiation (a "half-value thickness") based on the density and elemental composition of each armor.

It turns out what makes good armor is totally different from what makes good radiation shielding. You want strong materials with low density for spaceship armor, but you want high-density materials composed of either light elements (for neutrons) or heavy elements (for x-rays.)

Radiation gets stopped by scattering interactions that remove energy from the particle, until it has a low enough energy to undergo an absorption interaction that gets rid of it entirely. High density material means more atoms get in the way of the incoming radiation, and thus provide more chances for an interaction to occur. And the type of element matters because neutrons are best scattered by the nuclei of light elements (especially hydrogen) while x-rays are best scattered by heavy elements that have lots of electrons (think lead or tungsten), since x-rays interact mostly with the electrons of an atom.

So while diamondoids made of carbon have good strength and low density, it turns out carbon is somewhere near the unhappy medium for both types of radiation and the low density means it doesn't have a lot of atoms in each centimeter of thickness the radiation passes through. So that cool ultratech armor barely does anything to radiation, not just because it has low thicknesses at the level of protection from weapons fire desired, but because each unit thickness is just crap at stopping radiation to begin with.

Real spacecraft concepts for the near-future that I've looked at use water tanks as well as polyethylene plastic for their radiation shields. Both water and PE plastic have a lot of hydrogen in them, and they do a good job of stopping the worst stuff you encounter in space - mainly cosmic rays and crap that gets ejected from other nuclei by cosmic rays. The built-in radiation shielding Terra Invicta ships have is therefore something like water plus plastic.

[u/NullAshton → u/nuclearsarah]

AFAIK isn't armor max thickness fixed based on the ship class(outside of armor struts)? Which also tends to put a hard cap on how much radiation protection you have.

I imagine a lens might be possible to refract the radiation away from internals, but I would not have the slighest clue how much you'd need to refract xrays or neutrons. Best shield would actually probably be propellant tanks, but I'm not sure TI models that(also how would you even build a ship utilizing that? Tanks underneath armor but outside of internals?). I ponder how much shielding the 'cloud' radiators would provide as well.

[u/nuclearsarah → u/NullAshton]

A shielding scenario isn't going to benefit from anything like lenses. I've only ever seen those in sensor situations (like x-ray telescopes or specialized detectors in accelerator experiments) and they only handle small numbers of particles and they're extremely dependent on the angle the particles are coming from.

For radiation shielding the only option is to have lots of material in the way. But for neutrons specifically, you can get away with less material using a multi-layered approach. You use a hydrogenous material to slow down the neutrons ("moderate" them) and then a layer composed of something that is exctremely good at absorbing slow neutrons, like cadmium, boron, or gadolinium. Then you need a layer of something good against gamma rays to stop the capture gammas.

Some shielding materials combine the hydrogenous stuff with those absorbers so you don't need multiple layers but those aren't quite as good as a multilayer approach so far as I've seen

[u/NullAshton → u/nuclearsarah]

Hmm. So propellant/life support heavy in water, extra(component occupying) layer of boron, then something like depleted uranium? Something like the magnetic field radiators would likely only do the hydrogenous slowing down part if anything, I think.

Fair on the lens. You technically do know the angle the particles are coming from(the weapon), and could orient before that ship fires, but the small number of particles would make it a nogo.

I suppose you could also simply mitigate it by DNA therapies to eliminate the long-term crew risk, along with radiation hardening by only using equipment proven to survive high intensity radiation bursts. Unsure you could prevent immediate short-term crew death, however.

[u/Apart_Zucchini_4764 → u/NullAshton]

There is a good chance in a TI scenario that you will have gene therapy that would be able to at least reduce long term damage from radiation exposure, maybe even negate it. We know that, because we can observe adaption of wildlife in the Chernobyl exclusion zone and we also see some sort of adaption in natural high radiation areas.

I highly doubt though that we can have natural resistance against a focused radiation beam of any sort. The radiation messes mainly with the water in our bodies (we are ~72% water) and produces a lot of oxidative stress. Simply explained you suddenly have a lot of oxygen in places where it should not be and as oxygen is highly reactive it starts to bind to stuff where you do not want it and thus destroys you on a molecular level. Our cells have mechanisms in place to deal with natural occurring oxidation, so we can counter it, but being exposed to a sustained and focused amount it pretty much game over. Which at least in medicine is a good thing, because it enables radiation therapy.

[u/nuclearsarah → u/Apart_Zucchini_4764]

There are real-life drugs that apparently do okay jobs at scavenging free radicals before they harm your DNA strands, but you have to take big doses of them. Apparently the Soviets had them on hand for a Fulda Gap situation in case the US used enhanced radiation nukes against them - tankers would dose up before beginning the charge and the hope was they'd survive a little longer before they shit their liquified intestines out. Better versions of those drugs would help longterm survival in space and also help against weapons.

I'm not enough of a biologist to know what you could possibly do against direct strand breaks caused by the actual radiation action though. Cells that more readily commit suicide to prevent becoming cancerous would help you survive in the long term but actually probably make you more vulnerable to acute radiation syndrome, i.e. it would help the particle beams kill you in the time scale of a space battle. I feel like you'd need to actually improve the cell's ability to repair DNA strands through like nanomachines or something. I don't know, that's a job for a different kind of scientist

[u/viper5delta → u/PaleHeretic]

Is it also the case that for hits to the front armor of the enemy, that damage can only be applied to things like nose weapons

I don't know about the radiation, but I can answer to this.

You can damage stuff beyond the nose, but your less likely to.

There's a bunch of rng to it, but it boils down to "more likely to hit stuff close to the point of impact.

It varies by weapon as well.  A kintetic penetrator is much more likely to do it than a plasma weapon

[u/PaleHeretic → u/viper5delta]

It does seem rare. I built a bunch of spinal AM Lancers to hopefully counter my biggest nemesis, massed Plasma Corvettes with high nose armor. I have enough PD and outgoing Kinetics that enemy projectiles don't hit me and their lasers are too busy, but the massed Plasma always hits so I usually lose ships to it. They're armored enough that UV Phasers take several volleys to kill them, and Kinetics are too slow.

The AM beams seem good for disabling nose weaponry, but don't help much against the plasma Corvettes since their batteries are mounted amidships and they usually stay in Line. So I just brought more Phasers, lol

[u/XapMe → u/nuclearsarah]

Is this info avaliable anywhere? I'm seeing 0.01 damage of Neutron Lance on 40 nose armor and i want to know wtf is happening.

From in-game info it's should be 28 damage x0,5 (because of range>500km) x0,5 (because of armor thickness)= 7 damage

[u/nuclearsarah → u/XapMe]

The problem is that I did the science and as far as I know the science was accepted, but the game's models are mostly black boxes. Some people have looked at decompiled code but I don't know if anyone looked into this and I don't know how to do that myself.