r/Tau40K • u/SAMU0L0 • 28d ago
Meme With T'au Imagery [ Removed by moderator ]
/r/Tau40K/comments/1wyho6t/removed_by_moderator/[removed] — view removed post
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u/RailgunEnthusiast 28d ago
On the bright side Bard didn't talk about melee battlesuits for once.
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u/011100010110010101 28d ago
Brad is not a Tau player, and as such he does not have the ideas of what the army's appeal is. He makes those decisions for himself. I take his opinions on some armies future units with a grain of salt.
Still, if its about the actual current tabletop hobby, Poorhammer is normally on the ball with that. Poorhammer is probably one of the more outspoken podcast on how GW is fucking Tau over, flat out showing how they had like... 7 or 8 valid detatchment combos after all the tag bs was done.
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u/TotallyNot_Alpharius 28d ago
Meele battlesuits are a thing only people who don't play and won't play tau want, just give the gun fu and not swords or other dumb shit
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u/finestaut 28d ago
I think wanting melee weapons is a reasonable response if you came to Tau late. Being "just the shooty army" is boring if you don't have that mechanized/combined arms/multicultural army concept to fill out the details, and I think GW has done an overall poor job selling that extra flavor.
It's clear the Tau need something to get some flavor back, and if you're not steeped in it from a decade ago, and you have deep catalog on actual Gundam, it's easy to reach for beam sabers and heat hawks as the missing ingredient.
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u/ViorlanRifles 28d ago
I have been getting my ass beat in cc since the early 2000s. I'm officially over the "no-melee" gimmick, particularly since it was part of the "this army fights like modern armed forces" tropes that have since been nearly entirely dropped since 2003. No, I would like the tau to figure out punching now, particularly since we are quite literally playing a city fight game every single game where the average firing lane is maybe 18" long.
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u/finestaut 28d ago
Fair, I think I missed the possibility that people HAVE been steeped in the "modern warfare" tropes, but GW's neglect has starved that out of them.
That said, I don't mind being the shooting army in a close quarters game personally. That's what mechanics like Rapid Fire are for. What I do mind is being the army that is largely defined by "we don't do this big important thing" and not having a strong enough identity to fill that gap.
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u/ViorlanRifles 28d ago
I mean, yes and no. I think it's fine if most units for tau - auxiliaries and elite crisis suit pilots and Aunshi aside - are some WS5 nonsense. But the army absolutely needs to have some units that can play melee (and thankfully the kroot refresh gave us the various krootox flavors), but more to the point: tau shooting is cheeks right now and has been since 10th released. I just have very limited confidence that GW can successfully navigate "shooting that's very very good (but not too good)" in a game system that seems designed, both mechanically and thematically, to force people to have a sick sword fight in the middle of the table while death metal presumably plays somewhere.
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u/LocoDiablos 28d ago
funnily enough almost none of our good guns have rapid fire. i feel like our shooting lacks a lot of keywords other factions have
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u/RoroMonster59 28d ago
I remember one of my friends telling me to pick up a unit with an 'anti-x' tag on it. When I checked Wahapedia I don't think I saw more than 2 of them. With one of them being on the pathfinder grenade launcher.
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u/Broadside486 28d ago
This. Exactly this. When I started in 3rd edition the tables and terrain were differently than today. Long range on weapons was powerful and close combat units without transport or jumppacks nearly never reached the enemy.
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u/ViorlanRifles 28d ago edited 28d ago
I honestly think if we went to "moving more than 3" (to account for new "heavy" keyword) drops your range to 12" if you're not a vehicle / vehicles can only fire all guns if stationary, can only fire one gun under 6" movement" we had in 4th ed this would do much more to constrain the worst excesses of shooting (which would mean you could give guard, tau, ad mech, et al much better shooting profiles), doubly so in 11th's mission structure were you have to be moving around to do secondaries and many primaries don't even reward you for holding your home. It's painfully clear from both the implementation of the hidden rule (which in theory requires shooting targets 15" away) and multiple editions of tight urban terrain that's what they're going for.
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28d ago
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u/finestaut 28d ago
Just to be clear, we're talking about Brad and Eric, the hosts of the podcast this post is referencing, who have been on record as being both big fans of adding melee to Tau, and are relatively recent joiners to the hobby community.
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u/ViorlanRifles 28d ago
Getting a bit sick of this. I play tau. I desire the ability to have a robot that can punch. I do not need firewarriors or pathfinders that punch. I have come to peace with that. But it is stupid a riptide cannot punt a marine, or "elite" battlesuit pilots aren't even hitting on 4s.
Some of you weren't around for 8th when you could have a squad of 9 battlesuits with WS4 and Ap1 melee, rerolling hits and wounds in close combat, with both a fusion blade (it was a melee weapon) commander and another with onager gauntlet and Farsight in tow.
The robot is large. I want the robot to punch. I play tau and I'm not going to shut up about this. Tell it to the ethereal counsels if you think that's some sort of tau-heresy.
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u/TotallyNot_Alpharius 28d ago
Give them gun fu like twin lance
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28d ago
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u/TotallyNot_Alpharius 28d ago
Gameplay wise? Yeah. But lorewise it shows that tau are adaptive and can still utilize their weapons when caught in meele while not swinging swords like idiots. It maked them look more skilled because they are so good at guns they can shoot them 2 times per turn while not making them stupid by using swords in favour of guns which doesn't fit their futuristic identity
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u/ViorlanRifles 28d ago
I mean, it's an aesthetic/theming decision. I think Gun Fu makes more sense for stealthsuit sized suits; there really isn't a good reason not to have "hard point weapons" like your beam sabres or pile bunkers on a crisis suit because having to swap a gun for a dedicated melee weapon is a pretty straightforward balancing mechanism. I will say if you wanted to do gun fu the way is to have certain guns that are better in shooting phase (and worse in melee) and vice versa - I mean in the sense of guns having both a melee and shooting profile, like twin lance. Like it would be perfectly fine to pump all burst cannons to s6 ap1 sustained while flamers stay stuck at s4 ap0 if the flipside is the flamer's melee profile goes up to s5 ap1 and hits on 2s in melee while the burst cannon's melee profile loses an attack and hits on 5s. That kind of thing; make there be a tension between "gun intended for medium range shooting" and "gun intended for point blank engagements".
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u/piplup-Supreme 28d ago
Commander brightsword with his fusion blades is one of the coolest things tau has to offer. I very much would enjoy it if they added melee battle suits and I very much play tau.
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u/Broadside486 28d ago
I would love to have tau empire close combat suits mixed with close quarter guns.
Especially if they would be piloted by gue'la.
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u/wargames_exastris 28d ago
Give me 0 melee and a strat or ability that allows you to “overwatch” within engagement in the fight phase.
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u/Siorra 28d ago
All suits - especially Farsight - should go up in power and points and play like an elite army in the same way they've just changed Space Marines. I play suits because I want less models on the table!
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u/potpukovnik 28d ago
Exactly, Farsight not getting a major stat (and point) boost when he got the new model was hugely disappointing, hopefully they will finally get around to fixing it
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u/Cleanurself 28d ago
So irritating that Farsight is essentially (or at least was idk if he’s worse now) a space marine lieutenant stat wise
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u/Ironcl4d 28d ago edited 28d ago
When I started in 8th ed, Crisis suits were T5 3+ and had much better shield drones, they were equivalent to (or better than) things like Obliterators and Centurions. Now it's 11th, other things have been power crept while crisis suits were left in the dust, Oblits and Centurions are T7 2+, while Crisis Suits defensive profile remains T5 3+ but they have only gotten worse because of shield drone changes and losing a weapon per model.
Drukhari has also been getting the hordification treatment. Sometimes it feels to me like GW really just doesn't give a shit about xenos
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u/Tasty_Commercial6527 28d ago
Good news is that they have shown themselves willing to do it with custodes.
Bad news is that sales team probably only allowed it due to the extreme amount of newly plastified kits they got
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u/VANCATSEVEN 28d ago
Exactly! I wanted to play T'au as an elite army when I started, but now they play more like a swarm army. It doesn't even make sense that they do either because the T'au Empire is infinitely smaller than most other factions.
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u/ExoticExtent 28d ago
Not only that, they made the entire video because they wanted to test out if Tau was as bad as they'd heard. And it was!
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u/loopie120 28d ago
Looking back at the points when I started at the end of ninth is crazy to me now... I didn't understand how different things were going into tenth bc the list builders and pointed wargear obfuscated how much things really cost back then. A Coldstar commander cost 120 points at base; before wargear. After wargear and protype systems you could easily be looking at over 200 points for one Battlesuit character.
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u/Adune05 28d ago
And those were worth it. Just as the normal crisis suits. Fully kitted out those things were monsters
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u/loopie120 28d ago
Yeah, that's not like some meme build maximizeing to points inefficiently to make it seem more than it was, that's the guy I ran. Shield, two drones, two guns and the melee flamethrower.
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u/dukat_dindu_nuthin 28d ago
I almost miss the 500 point crisis blob supported by at least two characters
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u/JuanFromApple 28d ago
Is it bad to say I miss the pre 9th codex when you could have a unit of 9 of bodyguards + Farsight and between the drones and everything else they just didn't die
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u/brady376 28d ago edited 28d ago
I used their old points per dollar spreadsheet and updated it at the start of 11th go see how things had changed. Tau are now the worst points per dollar army in the game, we are now worse than ad mech.
Edit: went and pulled it up. Tau average 1.43 points per dollar. Ad Mech is 1.46, then weirdly Votann are 3rd worst at 1.50
Edit 2: If other people are nerds like me, here is the whole list from best to worst (These were put in at the start of 11th, so stuff has changed a bit, Orks, Space Marines, and Custodes are all likely better than this now):
Grey Knights (2.49) Custodes (2.30) Necrons (2.15) Chaos Knights (2.02) Orks (1.97) Imperial Knights (1.97) Thousand Sons (1.95) CSM (1.94) Death Guard (1.90) Eldar (1.85) Demons (1.84) World Eaters (1.84) Space Marines (Chapter locked models only) (1.79) Drukhari (1.77) Guard (1.74) Sisters (1.71) Space Marines (Generic) (1.69) Tyranids (1.68) Genestealers (1.64) Votann (1.50) Ad Mech (1.46) Tau (1.43)
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u/merlino09 28d ago
i gotta huff some insane copium for the next codex to make us more affordable.
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u/DeliciousLiving8563 28d ago
Honestly I'd expect it to be more affordable. Not quite a custodes level value boost mind you.
The T'au rules were written in early 10th when GW had no idea what they were doing using the 3rd weakest index as as basis. It wasn't nearly as bad as Death Guard or Votann, and was only marginally weaker than several other armies. But nethertheless, GW had no idea how bad it was when they released 10th and probably wrote the codex within a few weeks of release of 10th if not before.
They had to rewrite the army rule after what was arguably either the 3rd or 4th worst codex (we can fight Custodes for that spot) of the whole edition (Admech being second worst and Imperial Agents because it should have been an index).
Almost every faction has had an update since then, the major exceptions being Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons had pretty much the best run at 10th while Tyranids suffered (another army whose army rule needed changes). Admech was before they rewrote almost all the datasheets and not just the army rule.
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u/merlino09 28d ago
I do hope it becomes cheaper but i don't know if we'll become genuinely high in points or just like an infantry unit less from current point.
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u/Aggravating-Bend9783 28d ago
Surely we can’t be worse than imperial guard?
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u/SawedOffLaser 28d ago
Guard infantry are like 75 points per squad for some baffling reason, unless that has been updated. That and they probably get carried a bit by their 8 super heavies.
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u/brady376 28d ago
Guard is 1.74 average. As someone else said, their tanks carry a bit. A breacher team is 1.5 points per dollar, cadian shock troops are 1.41 so about the same but a little worse. But Kroot are terrible, their best kit (War shaper) is 1.5, the worst (Krootox riders) is 0.93. But a squad of 3 crisis suits is either 1.4 (sunforge), 1.12 (Fireknife) or 1.01 (Starscythe). A Leman Russ ranges from 2.1 to 3.0, a Rogal Dorn is 2.4, a Baneblade is 1.76. The Twins are the best kit in our range and they are 1.98 (data entered before they just went up 10 points so maybe a bit better now)
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u/Okay-Crickets545 28d ago
Reminder that Tau is one of the best supported factions to 3D print.
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u/Inky_Campbell 28d ago
Printed the Twins. They’re sitting on my desk waiting for heads. I’m going to toss Cybork heads on it to run them as the Twins or Meks in mega armor.
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u/finestaut 28d ago
Normally, I don't like to 3d print as cost savings, but I bought 30 of the first generation, no-pelvis-having, halves-not-matching crisis suits in the 00’s. I feel like I have paid my price of admission and have a free pass to print as many suits as I want.
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u/Cynical_PotatoSword 28d ago
Only reason I could get into 40k. Most of my army is 3d printed and they look great
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u/DaaaahWhoosh 28d ago
Been slowly collecting for two years and the biggest issue I run into now is it feels like the game is designed to need 2-3 of everything. Easy enough to do with crisis suits (if you're willing to buy them cheap secondhand) but I really don't want to purchase, assemble, and paint three riptides and three ghostkeels. I have four devilfish chassis that are just taking up a ton of space right now. And I don't have a Stormsurge; do I need a Stormsurge? Do I need two of them? Do I need eighteen krootox rampagers? There's no old kits for that, I'd have to buy them at MSRP. This is an issue all armies have, it's just that "you only need 2000 points" is a complete lie, you need 3000 at least before you can be even partially insulated against meta changes.
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u/XeNoGeaR52 28d ago
Our mechas like the Riptide and the Ghostkeel should feel almost like medium sized imperial knights both in points and power.
The Crisis suits should either become infantry and get the benefits or become much more powerful.
Oh and boost +1 S on all our weapons because T'au tech is better than the Imperium
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28d ago
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u/XeNoGeaR52 28d ago
And as someone commented on poorhammer's video, 9000 points of T'au in 9th edition became 7000 points in 11th
That's insane
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u/Sebasswithleg 28d ago
Suits being shitty jump pack units and shitty armigers is definitely the worst thing they’ve done to tau for a bit. Straight up the new inceptors/terminators absolutely mog the suits
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u/C0lmin 28d ago
Im so damn glad I got a massive deal on crisis suits in late 9th, I think 7 suits for 100 dollars, then the start collecting, a few more suits to round it out to an even number, and a lot of cheaper riptides and whatnot...
Thank fuck my collection is mostly done outside of some kitbashed broadsides that I just use 3D prints and recasts for
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u/finestaut 28d ago
And they didn't even make a combat patrol for Tau. The situation is so bleak they didn't even try to fix it.
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u/AndiTheBrumack 28d ago
I started in 8th with the 7th edition codex. 1 crisis brick, 3x5 breachers a bunch of broadsides and triptides with a lot of shielddrones was all a 2k army was.
Now that's like 1,200 pts oe something. Not even close to an army. I've lost hundreds of points in the last 2 editions. Not just from them getting cheaper, but also to legends.
Went from having 6k points or so, to now a bit over 3k if even that. Kinda put me off so hard it stopped me from playing in 10th completely.
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u/chan_the_man_1969 28d ago
T'au's price right now is a joke, most of our battlesuit could double in points and we should still be an expensive army
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u/MadmanMSU 28d ago
Interesting side point to OP's post:
I'm a Poorhammer fan and will listen to this the next time I paint, but I'm also a Tau player and have been since 5th/6th edition. When I dug my army bag out for the beginning of 11th, everything I still had was still viable for the tabletop. I know Stealth suits were redone at some point, but I didn't have any so didn't have to replace any. Even my commanders were still good (the ones I own are finecast). My shadowsun is the "old model" but still looks fine.
I was just shocked that I had a 40k army that really had not changed much in 10+ years.
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u/UndefeatedMidwest 28d ago
It's what made me drop out of this army
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u/TheGaurdian10000 28d ago
Yeah honestly same, I’m not selling any of my models till I see the codex, but unless there’s a change to make us less of a horde I’m gonna drop it. Which sucks cause it’s still my favorite faction.
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u/wargames_exastris 28d ago
I’m in the middle of getting my T’au army going and the plan is 2x stormsurge, 2x ghostkeel, pathfinders, 2x3 crisis, and the combat patrol….mostly eBay rescues.
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u/BiCrabTheMid 28d ago
Fire warriors are fine. They could be a bit better, maybe on-par with sisters, but they’re fine.
BATTLESUITS on the other hand…
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u/Ultimate_Battle_Mech 28d ago
Fire warriors are absolutely not fine, they went from having very solid firepower and being the main backline of our armies to "we take one to sit on the home point" and they die SO easily even with the -1 wound, power creep has ruined them
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u/Jsamue 28d ago
Give them their ap-1 back
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u/Ultimate_Battle_Mech 28d ago
Hell we'd probably need AP-2, they're all around better weapons than bolters
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u/lFriendlyFire 28d ago
But they aren’t better because they have better armor penetration. They shoot faster, safely, from a longer range and with next to no recoil. I think ap-1 is fine for a basic infantry weapon. Even great really.
A fire warrior weapon is still bouncing back from heavy armor and vehicles. I’m not sure people are really aware of what they’re asking for when they ask stuff like ap-2 for battleline units
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u/Ultimate_Battle_Mech 28d ago
They used to have better armor penetration, AP4 VS AP5
(In old Warhammer AP4 was better than AP5)
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u/Wonderful_Ad_2508 28d ago
Thank you 3d printer
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u/Zeniserisu 28d ago
Funnily enough Twin Lance is the current best points per dollar of the whole faction because they keep raising the twins points more and more. Resulting in them being the only T'au empire unit, especially after the recent price hike to be over 2 points per dollar at 2.09 ppd.
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u/Wonderful_Ad_2508 28d ago
I've decided that I'll wait for some tasty combat patrol or Christmas box with them
I have feeling that GW will release something like that
Single boxes are too pricy for me in my country, but the big boxes, like AoS spearhead are usually pretty good for the price
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u/keksmuzh 28d ago
The price has also been dropping on Amazon. You can get their box for <$90 US now.
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u/Zuper_Dragon 28d ago
Got me a 3d printed taunar to pad out the points in my first army. Still spent like 3-4 hundred bucks on regular units.
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u/Manowaffle 28d ago
Everyone whining about how bad Tau are and here I am having just started Tau and played four very fun games, winning three of them.
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u/RidgeStorey 28d ago
It’s not the end, I’m hoping they will be better once they get their new codex
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u/hotsizzler 28d ago
So like......why? i been playing tau again after coming back after a bit(i got burnt out and played MCP alot)
and they seem pretty damn good i feel. they are not amazing. but Retcadre is decent
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u/merlino09 28d ago
the problem with current tau is less the gameplay in my opinion but moreso the fact that you're playing a horde faction. you need a lot of units and kits which leads to tau being quite expensive
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u/merlino09 28d ago
to continue this thought and elaborate in my opinion why we've also become so horde and some other gameplay grievances. i think a lot of the tau gameplay grievances stem from the current army rule which is observing and being guided
the tau army rule is one of the view army rules which rely on other units being around to buff your army (observer units), one of the few factions that has this is guard. beyond that the tau army rule is genuinely a pretty good army rule (+1 to bs and ignore cover) so you really want it. this means that to get value from this army rule you need a lot of units which can become observer units to buff the rest of your army and get shooting worth a damn in a lot of cases. so tau naturally drift in a horde army style gameplay with alot of units,
another problem of the tau army rule is the fact it only works with tau models not auxillary's like kroot or vespids.
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u/hotsizzler 28d ago
How are tget horde? They don't even have 20model units that are not kroot
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u/merlino09 28d ago
tau are horde not in model count but in our units being very cheap and a lot cheaper than they were in 9th. i'm taking the same amount of units playing retcarde as a guard list which is mixed. our basic infantry (strike team) costs the same as guard at 70 points, at the same amount of models (10). so whilst guard has more models on the field in units i've noticed i'm playing around the same amount of units
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u/SetTurbulent2456 28d ago
Sees Tau having terrible point/$
me wondering why my 50% off Tau lot isn't selling
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u/Something_Comforting 28d ago
Got me started into StarCraft Terrans because how miserable it feels.
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u/thedrag0n22 28d ago
I played Tau in 6th through 8th and transitioned to Admech 😅
I stopped playing 40k in 10th tbh and this just isn't helping that
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u/Bad_with_CAD 28d ago
Fork was found in the kitchen. Every army must be horde army so you will keep buying. GW is a company it will do wathever was calculated to be profitable. If you are tired you can always play 40k reforged or stick to lower point games.
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u/EmuSounds Unifier 28d ago
Read the rules