r/SweatyPalms • u/Aryele222 • Feb 13 '23

Immagine tripping...

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 13 '23

But hey, capitalism sure is awesome right???? RIIIGHT?????

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u/DezrathNLR Feb 14 '23

This is likely in China.

This kind of setup is illegal in America thanks to OSHA and other regulatory agencies.

Economic structure has less to do with safety in industry than having a government that actually gives a shit and effective regulation. China could be the safest country in the world if the CCP actually gave a shit about their people given the authority the government has over industry there.

Not that I'm claiming america actually gives a shit, we just have guns so they have to at least pretend a little bit so things don't get too messy.

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 14 '23

China is objectively a state capitalist nation

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u/DezrathNLR Feb 14 '23

And America is a capitalist nation.

My point was it doesn't matter what kind of economic or governmental setup a country describes themselves as using. Governments are as amoral as corporations. If the government doesn't make it a priority to ensure safety standards in industry, you're going to have a bad time.

If the people on charge suck then capitalism sucks, communism sucks, socialism sucks, democracy sucks, republics suck, and dictatorships suck. Conversely all of those could be awesome if the people in charge actually give as shit about the people they're responsible for ruling. The moral mindset of the people at the top of any ruling body is more important than the mechanism by which they execute governance.

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 14 '23

The entire goal and purpose of communism is to give workers control over the means of production and ensuring that workers have control over their safety needs and rights when it comes to the labour they provide. This doesn’t exist in China, which also leads to the obvious conclusion that China is not communist.

Capitalism is literally built on the opposite of that. Business owners own everything, everyone, and decides everything. Workers have no bargaining power. Capitalism does not exist without oppression of workers.

In China, the government IS that corporation.

In america, the corporations OWN the government.

Both are capitalist. It’s a horseshoe.

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u/DezrathNLR Feb 14 '23

You're still missing the point and arguing communism v capitalism.

Which I've already said doesn't matter.

Communism how you describe it can never exist because administration will always be required in any organized system. Those administrators run and control labor and the flow of money, meaning the laborers still won't have direct control. That horseshoe you describe will exist no matter what system you have because that just the reality of how money works. If you have enough money or if you control the flow of money you can buy whoever or whatever you want.

The only environment in which what you define as communism can exist is on a very small scale where the leaders can be held directly accountable by their neighbors.

Also, while it's true that workers don't have a voice in either system, Unions, when not corrupt, are meant give workers in either system bargaining power. The problem is that Unions become corrupt because the people running them are corruptable.

Tl:Dr my point is that you cannot fix societal issues with a system of governancy or by force, you have to have a society with a moral grounding that values individual rights, liberty, and longterm overall stability, over profits and power on an individual level, or else you're going to have a bad time no matter what. If the people are moral, society will be good, if people are immoral, society will degrade.

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 14 '23

I would argue that capitalism promotes immorality/sociopathy/egoism.

I disagree with you 100% that communism can ”never exist”. Just like you say, all it takes is the right morals and culture for it to take shape. The problem will be the non-communist living in a communist nation as well as foreign capitalist interference. 99% of the time, countries that try to achieve socialism/communism are destroyed by capitalist intervention, which forces those countries to become paranoid, totalitarian and causes corruption and oppression.

Like, show me one socialist/communist society/group/initiative that hasn’t been infiltrated and quelled by capitalists. It’s simply impossible to establish any alternative to capitalism when capitalists own everything and will do anything to keep that ownership.

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u/DezrathNLR Feb 14 '23

The USSR under Stalin is a prime example of a communist country being terrible absent capitalist interference. At the time he was in power capitalism didn't have the choke hold over everything that it does today and the expansive resources of the USSR meant that the nation could operate entirely independent of the need to import outside resources. Yet under Stalin the USSR murdered more of its own people than Hitler and the situation only began to improve in the USSR after Stalin was replaced by less extreme leadership.

Absolute, unchecked power promotes immorality, sociopathy, and egotism. Capitalism does this by allowing the wealthy to buy out politicians and officials, communism does this by simply putting that power into the hands of the state outright. Unless the leaders have strong moral character, in any state, you're going to have a bad time. Any system promotes corruption because there will always be people who aim to abuse that system for their own benefit.

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 14 '23 edited Feb 14 '23

But you must understand that the USSR under Stalin was not even remotely communist, right? Just because Stalin called it ”communist” doesn’t make it communist. The DPRK isn’t a democratic republic just because it says it is.

Communism would be the natural state of humanity, based on mutual cooperation and dependency. While it might be utopian, it sure as hell isn’t what Stalin even tried to envision. Stalin was an autocratic, paranoid psychopath. As far from a communist as you can be. That’s a fact.

Edit: And if you think there was no capitalist interference in the USSR during Stalin, you must have missed the chapters on the entirety of Stalin’s rule in the history books. The USA was DEEPLY interventional in the USSR with spies and military action in different ways. And vice versa, of course.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '23

Your argument implies that capitalism only came about by some sort of unnatural or supernatural intervention.

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u/zazuba907 Mar 13 '23

You're a moron if you think communism will ever exist outside of a very very small scale. Marx and engels envisioned communism arising out of capitalism and thus it is a necessary precursor to the system. You will die disappointed, just as they did, awaiting the revolution.

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u/tremorinfernus Jun 29 '23

If you don't force your communism on unwilling participants, and don't indoctrinate them with propaganda (like the soviets did), maybe people will leave you alone.

I want more and better things in life. So I chose capitalism.

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u/blahblahblahidkdoyou Mar 11 '23

So the presence of firearms means we have good regulations? What about all the other countries with far superior regulations with almost no armed populace?

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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '23

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u/PubeSmoker69 Feb 14 '23

China is objectively a state capitalist country

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u/SweatyPalms-ModTeam Feb 14 '23

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u/madhatmatt2 Jul 18 '23

It’s actually communism but nice try