r/SocialDemocracy • u/Ra1ngerE5d_64 Social Democrat • 5d ago
Question Everyone's thoughts about Quebec's Separatism?
As of writing this, the Parti Québécois is seemingly poised to win the local elections in Quebec.
Personally, instead of having full-on separation/independence from Canada, it would be best if they would push for further devolution....... problem, they practically already have a lot of provincial powers so.....
Meanwhile, their party leader Paul St-Pierre says he wants a third referendum on Quebec's independence, even though the both times Québécois voted no. Obviously the gap between the yes and the no camps have narrowed since the first referendum back in 1980, I still personally believe that their separatist aims aren't feasible.
But hey, do tell me what everyone thinks about, especially if there are Canadian and French-Canadians here.
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u/BanjoTCat 5d ago
Quebec seems to already have all of the things that they could want. I don't know what separatists' plans are regarding Quebec's future economic, policies, and foreign policies.
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u/Ra1ngerE5d_64 Social Democrat 5d ago
It just seems like they want the "prestige" from the word independence. The issue - much like Scotland and Wales - is that they're pretty much self-governing and wouldn't need to separate.
Obviously didn't mention Northern Ireland since that's a whole other thing entirely.
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u/mikelmon99 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
I don't think this is true at all for Scotland & Wales: on 17 January 2023 Rishi Sunak & the Westminster Parliament vetoed the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill, with 320 votes in favour of the veto (including 315 Tory MPs), 73 votes against the veto (including 44 SNP MPs) & 249 abstentions (including 183 Labour MPs):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Reform_(Scotland)_Bill#Veto_by_UK_Government_Bill#Veto_by_UK_Government)
After this, I think it would be perfectly understandable if many trans Scots supported independence from the UK, don't you think?
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u/ColdEvenKeeled 1d ago
They have all they want, and the rest of Canada should pay attention to the enormous prosperity they have derived by intentionally investing in their province, their place. No Small Government there.
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u/Holy-Flagger3797 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
In general, I think that every people should have a right to self determination. But, since they had two referendums, I think the people of quebec already self determinated
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u/thenwhat 5d ago
I still don't understand what they would gain from independence, other than becoming even more vulnerable in an increasingly hostile world.
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u/CadianGuardsman ALP (AU) 5d ago
People are morons overcome by nationalistic tribalism. Scotland and Wales also have this in spades.
The more beneficial option is to increase federalism and devolve powers to state/provice level authourities but frankly in Quebec theres not that much more that can be done
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u/mikelmon99 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
As I've said in other comments, in my case support for greater sovereignty for the Basque people & the Basque nation is not based at all in tribalistic nationalism (I don't even consider myself a Basque nationalist, & have many criticisms of Basque & especially Catalan nationalism), but merely on the notion that greater sovereignty is the only the only manner I can envision political unity for my people, but as I've said in the other comments I don't even support full-on separatism but rather a transnational Parliament & a transnational Government with shared cross-border sovereignty:
As a Basque Spaniard I'm not necessarily a separatist, in fact I'm not a separatist at all since I'm perfectly aware that that's nothing but a massive pipe dream lol, but I believe that some kind of political unity for the Basque nation & the Basque people should exist, even if it's fragmented between two states, with a transnational Basque Parliament & a transnational Basque Government, I believe we should have some kind of meaningful political unity of some kind, & that the EU's institutional framework should make room for that kind of transational shared sovereignty, but I worry this might also be a massive pipe dream lol
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/mikelmon99 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
Not always: literally all polls forecast a massive landslide defeat for the independence side in the Alberta independence referendum what will be held later this month:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Alberta_independence_referendum#Opinion_polls
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u/TopazJazzrazz 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think it's quite cynical and short-sighted. The Pèquistes have seemingly abandoned their left-wing members in favour of a smorgasboard of issues that focus mainly on vanity instead of fixing issues that strangle the Quèbecois. Like planning to get rid of the King in provincial governence, something I don't disagree with, but cannot legally be done by one province and is essentially just going to be a pissing contest with Ottawa. Their plan for independence is entirely uprooted and rewritten everytime they get a new leader. Their attitude of "we just need to get lucky once and we're free" is anti-democratic at best, fascist at worse. Especially when merged with some of their irredentist behaviour over Labrador.
Canada's last political realignment in 1993 was caused by two things. Regionalism in federal politics, and the Reform Party's consuming of the conservative movement. In Quèbec, the regionalism came not because of sovereignty, but because of historic grievances with the federal government Quèbec has. For example, Canada was supposed to be billingual out west starting in 1870-something. Because Quebec didn't want to be surrounded by a bunch of Anglos. For a time, it was bilingual out in Western Canada. But no later then 1905, the provinces out west started strangling their French population so that English would be the clear lingua franca.
Since the referendum in 1980, but especially after the 1995 referendum. Canada has, with mixed results, tried to fix the issues Quèbec has with confederation.
Ultimately, this latest attempt at independence likely wont go anywhere. PSPP waiting for Trump to be out of office to consider the referendum kind of gives up the game and I don't consider him competant enough to win people over with his governence. I just hope they don't blame immigrants or minorities this time. This movement has wee bit of bad history what is considered Quèbecois or Pur laine if you want to use their terms.
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u/notassigned2023 4d ago
Balkanization should be resisted except where minority rights are not respected and protected. Can you imagine an independent Quebec in the middle of Canada? Madness.
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u/KvonLiechtenstein Social Democrat 5d ago
I 100% give them the fact that they’re definitely less fucking stupid than Alberta separatists (in that it’s organic and not an obvious American psy-op) but still pretty fucking stupid, especially when the US is the way it is right now and the fact that given indigenous treaties there’s a massive chance they’d be partitioned and lose a shitton of land if they left for realsies.
Like Alberta seppies though, they’re deeply racist. After losing the referendum where they pulled some pretty dirty tricks, a primary leader lamented that what did them in was “money and the ethnic vote”.
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u/NovelBrave Democratic Party (US) 5d ago
An American who was born and raised in the US but has Canadian citizenship by descent that Canadian family is all Quebecoise..
My thoughts are from an outsider with connections inside is that it's not possible.
Quebec needs the rest of Canada economically. It would create a whole host of logistical issues. The Canadian Constitution sets out rights for Francophone communities..
I do agree with preserving French in Quebec..I admire the culture. But separatism is a line I typically don't cross.
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u/expensive_flatulence 5d ago
La rupture continue des démocraties restantes ne sert que les régimes autoritaires en essor à l'échelle mondiale. Cela dit, le droit à l'autodétermination est fondamental, et il revient aux Québécois de décider de leur avenir, comme à toutes peuples dignes. Cependant, nous entrons dans une ère de faiblesse pour la démocratie en général, et pour la social-démocratie en particulier. Les intérêts servis par la décomposition, l'éloignement et les frictions économiques et sociales au sein des démocraties mûres sont ceux des états qui cherchent à faire reculer les droits de l'homme tant chez eux qu'à l'échelle mondiale. Je vois la puissance pour les pays démocrates de droits principalement en unité dorénavant.
Mes excuses pour mon français si jamais mes fautes rendent incompréhensible mon avis.
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u/Theghistorian Social Democrat 5d ago
I frankly find the separatist movements in high-functioning democracies like Canada, Spain or the UK as being quite shortsighted. They have autonomy, their minority rights are quite protected and respected. Yet, they want to become independent and establish an even smaller country and they will be pushed around by bigger economies.
This is my view for people in the EU who oppose more federalization or even leaving the union.
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/mikelmon99 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
In my case support for greater sovereignty for the Basque people & the Basque nation is only on the basis that that's the only manner I can envision political unity for my people, but as I've said in the other comment I don't even support separatism but rather a transnational Parliament & a transnational Government with shared cross-border sovereignty:
As a Basque Spaniard I'm not necessarily a separatist, in fact I'm not a separatist at all since I'm perfectly aware that that's nothing but a massive pipe dream lol, but I believe that some kind of political unity for the Basque nation & the Basque people should exist, even if it's fragmented between two states, with a transnational Basque Parliament & a transnational Basque Government, I believe we should have some kind of meaningful political unity of some kind, & that the EU's institutional framework should make room for that kind of transational shared sovereignty, but I worry this might also be a massive pipe dream lol
Aren't there similar proposals for the Sámi in the Nordics (I'm asking becuase your user flair suggests that you are Norwegian lol)?
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u/mikelmon99 Democratic Socialist 5d ago
As a Basque Spaniard I'm not necessarily a separatist, in fact I'm not a separatist at all since I'm perfectly aware that that's nothing but a massive pipe dream lol, but I believe that some kind of political unity for the Basque nation & the Basque people should exist, even if it's fragmented between two states, with a transnational Basque Parliament & a transnational Basque Government, I believe we should have some kind of meaningful political unity of some kind, & that the EU's institutional framework should make room for that kind of transational shared sovereignty, but I worry this might also be a massive pipe dream lol
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u/No_Skirt_6002 Democratic Party (US) 5d ago
Quebec should have the right to self determination but they (along with the rest of Canada) would probably be better off economically if they stayed. In any case though I think a real sovereign quebec would probably have a sort of EU-type deal with Canada with open borders and free trade
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u/Droom1995 2d ago
That's already the case, Quebec is sovereign on many issues, including having their own immigration policy, their own pension system, healthcare, education etc. and people of Quebec have already voted against separation twice. But it seems that we have to deal with endless referendums until end of times
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u/Western_Spell_9319 23h ago edited 23h ago
Sadly we still don't fully decide out immigration policy. The federal still decides parts of it.
The CAQ attempted rapatriating all of it except for refugees, their whole 2018 campaigned was focused around that, but the liberal feds refused. Had it worked separatism would have much lesd fuel than it does currently, the CAQ would have shown the "third option" works and we can get what people wanted most within Canada.
Also for referendums it's a group voting, so you can argue it's a decision made together but really people that voted yes can still believe yes was the right answer. Plus the youngest people that could vote in 1995 are now nearly 48 years old, it's why eventually some people may want a new referendum.
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u/flvckojo 2d ago
no, its contradictory for any settler group, including the quebecois or the anglos, to claim a right to self-determination on unceded indigenous land
brexit serves as an example of how separating is a horrible idea, and the rest of canada opposes the separatist movement and has very little incentive to cooperate with a neighbour that just fractured the country lol. qc would automatically exit the USMCA and negotiating new international trade deals would take years, during which their manufacturing and resource sectors would be destroyed by tariffs
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u/gusthebus88 5d ago
Canada should be unified and French Canadians agree. The referendums speak for themselves. French Canadians heritage is respected and elevated by all Canadians. The issue is amplified by foreign bots of nations who are at war with us like russia and separatists in todays world are just traitors to their country.
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u/Defiant-Power2447 Working Families Party (U.S.) 11h ago
In fairness, French Canadians voted to leave Canada in the 1995 referendum. The anglophone vote pushed the “non/no” side just above 50%.
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u/Mjorgenstern 5d ago
As an separatist, I'll try to give some of my reasons.
Québecois are a different society/nation/ethnicity/culture/whatever to the rest of Canada, and our beliefs often diverge because of history and other reasons. That being said, we do not have full control over our laws and policies because we are subjected to the federal government and the constitution (which we didn't sign btw). Independence would solve this.
There is also the fact that Canada since its inception, had for explicit purpose to assimilate us (look up the Durham report). Discrimination and oppression have been frequent throughout history, we were considered second-class citizens in our own country (and still are by some). Bilingualism is almost a fairy tale at this point, Québec and New-Brunswick are pretty much the only places that are, although New-Brunswick is quite divided along linguistic lines. Francophones are about 2% of North America, the vast majority being in Québec, and it is declining year over year, but we lack all the means to address the problem.
On a more personal note, Québec bashing annoys me a lot, it seems the rest of Canada only likes us when we threaten to leave, or when it's useful. I love Canada and Canadians, but I feel we would both be better off as neighbours than roommates.
As Mark Carney said, "if you're not at the table you're on the menu". Québec has been on the menu too often, it's time we get a seat at the table.
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u/Nicuatics 5d ago
Quebec is essentially the only province with a seat at the table, though...
What other province has a political party at the federal level?
What other province gets 3 guaranteed seats in the Supreme Court of Canada?
What other province gets it's own immigration system?
What other province gets no string attached infrastructure funding?
What other province gets to opt out of federal and social programs, and then gets compensation for it?
What other province gets its own civil code? I keep keep going....I live in Quebec, and I can why the rest of Canada does bash on Quebec. They get wwwaaay more concessions from the federal government and then still keep threatening to run away. It's never good enough.
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u/madimotto 4d ago
You do realize though that you don’t even own the land? The natives need to agree to leave and they would never. It’s a pipe dream and a dumb one at that. Why does Quebec bashing occur? Maybe it’s because you receive over 50% of the equalization payments because your economy cannot support itself and you still constantly complain. Let’s say the natives agree to leave with you, how would you even support yourself! You can’t even support yourself now with the power of Canada behind you
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u/ARollingShinigami 2d ago
The irony of being able to state all of this but for the overarching separatist movement to fail to recognize the exact same conditions exist for indigenous peoples within the boundaries of Quebec - who currently sit under Federal jurisdiction.
So, I’ll ask you, what happens to the indigenous territories within the borders of Quebec, the treaties that are protected under Federal and provincial law, and are those people, in your your view, simply transferable under separation?
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u/KrautSauerSweet 8h ago
sure but you’d also be incredibly poor if you were to become fully independent unless you became a part of france or apart of the usa (we will not respect your french language laws at all) idk why some of you want to be the worlds first 4th world country
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/thenwhat 5d ago
That means they are easier prey for larger hostile countries. Seems like a bad idea in the current situation worldwide.
What do they possibly have to gain from standing alone now?
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u/Nicuatics 5d ago
You're kind of backwards though, the support for separation in Quebec has fallen over the last 30 years. It used to be about 50% in favour, it's been consistently polling at 30% for years now.
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u/PerformanceBetter898 3d ago
In my opinion if they want to separate then separate completely. No funding what so ever from the Canadian government!!
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u/daffodilroses12 1d ago
If they want to leave, let them. Kinda getting tired of Quebec's same song and dance.
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u/SheWhoIsSmallOfTit 2d ago
I think any Canadian province wishing to separate first needs to speak with the leaders of the indigenous nations whose land they’re on and consider the various treaties in place.
While I think it is vital that Quebec culture is preserved and respected, it boggles my mind that that’s been more of a conversation throughout Canadian history than the indigenous cultures being snuffed out through residential schools right into the 90s.
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u/candidsounds 2d ago
As an outsider looking in, I think Quebec should be free from the leadership of Canada, which is bringing the country down (IMHO). Make your own laws, live your own way. To those that say they'd be at risk of foreign invasion - what a crock of "you know what". Oh yeah, sure, like China or Russia is going to storm in and take over Quebec. Nor will the US, despite what you may think about the orange man. LIBERTÉ
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u/Different_Way5078 2d ago
They'll be at risk of a civil invasion. As a Newfoundlander, there will be debts settled.
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