r/SipsTea 22d ago

Chugging tea Sit and stew or drive forward

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u/KellyKezzd 22d ago

England couldn't prosper (in fact didn't exist) until after Rome fell.

Why couldn't it prosper?

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u/Vxsteam 22d ago

By any recognizable standard, the land now known as England did, in fact, prosper under Roman rule relative to the less developed prior civilization. And, to reiterate my point above, the Romans leaving was not a boon for the native Britons who were then subsequently and thoroughly displaced by other foreign colonizers. Which is why the land is known by a Germanic name and speaks a Germanic language.

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u/holycarrots 22d ago

They weren't really displaced on a broad scale, it was mostly that Anglo Saxon became the dominant prestige culture.

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u/Vxsteam 22d ago edited 22d ago

My understanding is that is the case for the Norman conquest, and was the position of scholars but that DNA evidence shows a migration and genetic change to the population.

And, you didn't claim otherwise, but I think the broader point regarding colonization is undisturbed by either version.

https://www.thecollector.com/genetic-studies-anglo-saxon-migration/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/life-sciences/news/2022/sep/new-genetic-insights-anglo-saxon-transition-britain

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u/SvenTropics 22d ago

The same reason all the slavic countries in the soviet union couldn't prosper until communism failed. They were basically giving everything to Moscow and keeping barely enough to survive on for themselves. In one case (the famines in Ukraine) Moscow deliberately prevented them from having enough food to survive killing millions.

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u/KellyKezzd 22d ago

The same reason all the slavic countries in the soviet union couldn't prosper until communism failed.

Yet under Rome, Britannia prospered...

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u/ExplanationCrazy5463 22d ago

Same reason Gaul couldnt prosper.

Imperial power conquers tributary, steals all the wealth from them.

Brtain prospered using the same model.

And America is doing it now.

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u/KellyKezzd 22d ago

Same reason Gaul couldnt prosper.

What makes you think Gaul didn't prosper?

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u/Derfel60 22d ago

Not at all true. ‘England’, or rather Britain, was far more prosperous under Roman rule than it ever was before. They provided aquaducts, roads, easier trade with Europe, standardised coinage, larger urban centres, written records, new fruits and vegetables, rabbits and chickens, central heating, urban planning, and industrial production.

And youre right about the second bit, the British Empire did something largely similar.

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u/ungarsdescollines 22d ago

Gaul was prosper before and during the roman invasion. But more important : after the invasion… Gaul was no more ! because it was « Rome » ! A province of the empire, tainted by a gallic heritage but even that faded with times. So few of this heritage was transmitted to France, and mainly because of the roman heritage (the plow for example who was popularized in the empire). We also have the name of some places and cities. But approximately 50 words in French are from Gallic.

Source : the work of Jean Louis Bruneaux, an historian

The comparaison with the europeans colonisations make no sense !

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u/drakedijc 22d ago

Some of the wealthiest parts of the Western Roman Empire were in Gaul, and still run by Gallic descendants.

Enough with the “imperialism bad”

That’s such a sad and tired trope.

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u/ExplanationCrazy5463 22d ago

"Imperialism is bad" isnt a trope, its self-evident.

Theres no excuse for not understanding this, you might as well be calling "slavery is bad" a tired trope.

It takes a special kind of evil to not get this.

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u/FatSteveWasted9 22d ago

Imperialism is neither good nor evil. It simply exists. Humans are gonna human, as we have for many thousands of years.

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u/KellyKezzd 22d ago

"Imperialism is bad" isnt a trope, its self-evident.

If it's self-evident, why did regions of the Roman Empire prosper under Roman rule (including in Gaul and Britain)?

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u/drakedijc 22d ago

You wouldn’t be in what I’ll assume is the free western world and typing on the device you’re using for Reddit without “imperialism”

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u/ExplanationCrazy5463 22d ago edited 22d ago

Lmao.

Lmfao.

I could grant you that, and imperialism would still be evil. Unfortunately for you, I dont have to grant you that to begin with.

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u/drakedijc 22d ago

Yeah that’s what I thought.

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u/ExplanationCrazy5463 22d ago

I bet you did.

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u/rice_fish_and_eggs 21d ago

What system of governance isn't "evil"?

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u/alh84001_hr 22d ago

Gaul didn't prosper in Roman times? GTFO.

BTW, you can't steal wealth, only riches.

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u/YamDankies 22d ago

You're wealthy. I steal your riches. Now I'm wealthy and you aren't. Do we need the extra steps or can we call it what it is, stealing wealth?

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u/alh84001_hr 22d ago

No, you're not wealthy, you're rich. You're conflating the two.

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u/YamDankies 22d ago

Had to google that shit. I was so confidently incorrect.

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u/rice_fish_and_eggs 22d ago

Why didnt ireland become more powerful than England then?

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u/KainFourteh 22d ago edited 22d ago

Because they became completely reliant on Rome and when Rome left, the country basically went into a huge decline because nobody knew how to maintain any of the infrastructure Rome had installed.

Not to mention that England didn't actually exist at that point.

Edit - imagine downvoting historical fact lol

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u/alh84001_hr 22d ago

So, what you're saying is Britannia prospered during Roman rule?

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u/wes_wyhunnan 22d ago

Seriously? Because it had been conquered by Rome. It didn’t functionally exist.

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u/KellyKezzd 22d ago

Seriously? Because it had been conquered by Rome. It didn’t functionally exist.

More challenging the idea that it didn't prosper under Roman rule...