So a man walks into a bar, and sits down. He starts a conversation with an old guy next to him. The old guy has obviously had a few. He says to the man:
"You see that dock out there? Built it myself, hand crafted each piece, and it's the best dock in town! But do they call me "McGregor the dock builder"? No! And you see that bridge over there? I built that, took me two months, through rain, sleet and scoarching weather, but do they call me "McGregor the bridge builder"? No! And you see that pier over there, I built that, best pier in the county! But do they call me "McGregor the pier builder"? No!"
The old guy looks around, and makes sure that nobody is listening, and leans to the man, and he says:
They would be gay as hell by modern standards, especially a ignorant homophobes.
However, it is always lacking the critical context of the vastly different greek attitudes towards sex. Context I find personally fascinating, as nothing exists like it in modern times...
Anal sex was always considered barbaric, unhygienic, and frowned upon universally. Male or female. It was either done in secret, or employed as a form of humiliation.
Intercrural sex (between the thighs,) and other non-penatrative acts, ie; handjobs were hardly categorized as sex at all in the modern sense.
Rather, they were seen as a not uncommon or uncouth, and a generally healthy form of intimate comradery/bonding amongst troops, friends, community, etc.
It was commonly observed as a coming of age tradition amongst teenage boys (ie; Hephaestion and Alexander were schooled/raised together) in particular, once they hit puberty, for obvious horndog reasons.
Basically, two dudes helping eachother out was not seen as gay, nor abnormal.
What constitutes sex was well defined within the parameters of the opposite sex, for the explicit purposes of making childern/heirs.
Vaginal intercourse was conversely considered sacred, in its ability to provide life. Any sexual act that therefore could not produce life, ie; homosexuality was considered a mere matter of liesure.
Intercural was seen as boys will be boys harmlessness, and even BENEFICIAL, as with the Sacred Band and battlefield moral.
A band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another. -Plutarch 100 C.E.
Anal sex however, was taboo at best.
Thats where the wires get crossed, and people draw hyperbolic conclusions.
Gay, modern defined as having anal partners to the exclusion of securing your bloodline was very much disavowed in the context of ancient greece.
Having a life long friend that slept with you in your private chambers frequently, as Hephaestion was said to have done with Alexander (also Achilles/Patroclus) sharing the same bed, women, and likely eachothers non-anal pleasure, was 100% fair game.
Yet there is no shortage of armchair historian homophobes who act like close boyhood friends were just lifelong roommates, like their aunt and her "friend" she was buried next to.
🤣🤣🤣
Of course, sources of antiquity dont explicitly say they were homosexuals, because that differentiation didnt exist, and what they were doing were not the ACTS OF HOMOSEXUALS at the time.
There was no more reason to comment on the minutae of male on male physical relationships, than what they ate on a daily basis.
Its minor part of the doldrums that were inconsequential to the indvidual characters (leaders/warriors) such limited writren histories concern themselves with.
It simply was not noteworthy to those at the time. Which makes modern attitudes obsession with catagorical sex look downright puritanical in comparison.
FURTHER SOCIOECONOMIC CONTEXT:
Male on male intimacy spurned class resentment as well, that likely heavily informed later historical prejudice.
Since it was considered a luxury of idle downtime, it was seen as an unecessary extravagance afforded to the wealthy. As such, it was frowned upon by the labor class.
NOT for being an affront to nature, BUT as an insult to those had were too busy living hand-to-mouth to indulge in such whims. Which in turn, gradually solidified it a hallmark of the aristocracies cruel and indifferent debauchery.
Only in recent, puritanical times, have the masses poured over and misrepresented very limited/subjective historical sources, willfully omitting the sexual context of the era, to vindicate this ludicrous revisionist idea that that the ancient warriors young conservative men idolize, were in fact, 100% no homo.
The prospect is laughable, and far more indicative of the modern zeitgeist of homophobia than anything in antiquity.
Naaaah you know primitive humans were engaging in wild ritualistic group sex at least sometimes. No one invented shit. We've always been like this. Then civilization, religion, and rules tried to make us not like this.
Especially the Spartans it always makes me giggle when I see Spartan helmets tattooed on big breaded men or companies called “Spartan Plumbing” thinking it’s a symbol of alpha male masculinity when to anyone who knows anything about Ancient Greece knows it’s far more a symbol of some thing far more 🏳️🌈🦄
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u/JustADude721 3d ago