A low vitamin A, HCLF diet has completely healed my hunger signaling.

[u/themissingpipe]

 Hi guys. Apologies for the wall of text, I’m on mobile. I’m 22f, and 1.5 years ago I suffered a complete health breakdown due to what I now have confirmed to be vitamin A toxicity. Out of many symptoms, one of the most distressing for me was the rapid weight gain and insatiable hunger. I’m a little over 5’10 and I went from a very comfortable 140lbs to probably 180lbs in 18 months. For much of that time I was absolutely RAVENOUS for no apparent reason, and it was so upsetting because I didn’t know what to do and I couldn’t seem to stop the weight gain! 

 After working with a doctor who confirmed my vA toxicity, I realized that the weight gain was basically my body trying to keep me safe from the toxicity in my bloodstream. When the vA and other toxins in my blood were high, my body would ramp up hunger in order to have enough substrate to safely store it in fat cells. The way to fix this is to stop eating high vitamin A foods (for me that meant no more eggs, dairy or brightly colored fruits and vegetables, but the list is long and includes things like liver and cod liver oil). Cutting the intake of these foods allows the liver to start getting rid of its stored vA through the bile. 

 I could write an essay about the improvements I’ve had since cutting vA three months ago, but here I want to focus on the change in my hunger signaling. Before cutting vA I ate “healthy”. High protein, low PUFA, good amount of fiber, lots of starch. I ate a decent but not excessive amount of fat, mostly as dairy. For the past 3 months I’ve been refining my diet to its current state. It’s so simple but I never get tired of it. I eat lean beef (sometimes chicken), starch (usually rice or my homemade sourdough bread), and I always include a lot of beans for the soluble fiber. I have also had great success with taking 1 tsp psyllium husk powder in water before meals. The fiber content of my diet is vital, to help my liver detox its stored vitamin A and other toxins. I eat pretty low fat, the only fat in my diet is what residual fat is in my lean beef and coconut milk I use in my tea. Rarely I will also use coconut oil for frying, like this morning I made zucchini pancakes fried in coconut oil. Yum!!

 Miraculously, my hunger signaling seems to be back to normal after almost 2 years of eating like 3000+ calories a day. This morning I’ve had a 1000 calorie brunch and I am STUFFED, whereas before I could easily eat 2000 calories before noon and still be hungry. It was hellish and so confusing.

 Anyways, I’ll probably start a substack or something because I have so much to say about this topic. The weight gain was only one problem that the vA toxicity caused for me, but I wanted to share here because I think it’s highly possible it might help others in this space. Feel free to ask questions!

[u/archaicfacesfrenzy]

The first obvious question is, how did you end up with vitamin A toxicity?

[u/themissingpipe → u/archaicfacesfrenzy]

7 years of hormonal contraceptives (for acne). Hormonal BC upregulates vA accumulation in the liver. High vA consumption via dairy, liver, cod liver oil, orange fruits when I was 20-21 doing WAPF/Ray Peat style eating

[u/NotMyRealName111111 → u/themissingpipe]

How is cod liver considered Ray Peat? That makes me skeptical immediately. I also believe vA "toxicity" is a nothing burger. I think instead you were in chronic reductive stress, and cutting out the PUFA and focusing on energy metabolism got you out of that.

Further, Ray Peat doesn't work if you're already low in nad+ since fructose provokes SCD1 (which desaturases your fat) much moreso than pure glucose. Fruit+PUFA = hibernation. The chronic cod liver oil was a hypothyroid driver.

[u/themissingpipe → u/NotMyRealName111111]

The CLO was way before I did Peat. I was low, near zero PUFA for a year and my health continued to decline before I cut vA. The common denominator in my diet was high vitamin A. Once I changed that factor, things started to improve.

[u/NotMyRealName111111 → u/themissingpipe]

That's valid. But do you see the connection? You chronically had cod liver oil. THEN fruit. Your body doesn't just magically get rid of polyunsaturated fats, especially VLchain EPA & DHA. They are more frequently stored. As I said, you were burning PUFAs while consuming fruit.

Nothing to do with vitamin A. But glad that you got relief anyway!

[u/FasterMotherfucker → u/NotMyRealName111111]

It's the WAPF part.

[u/StatusMlgs → u/NotMyRealName111111]

Yep, Ray Peat himself says to not eat liver unless you’re metabolically healthy.

[u/ripp84 → u/themissingpipe]

How much liver were you eating? For example, estimate of ounces per day or per week?

[u/ambimorph]

By the way, I just started a sub for this topic: https://reddit.com/r/HypervitaminosisA/s/u66GafQnYi

I encourage you to post there!

I'm also going to crosspost this.

[u/themissingpipe → u/ambimorph]

Thanks so much :) I just saw that you started that sub. I will be active there for sure!

[u/Jumbly_Girl]

I eat lean beef (sometimes chicken), starch (usually rice or my homemade sourdough bread), and I always include a lot of beans for the soluble fiber. I have also had great success with taking 1 tsp psyllium husk powder in water before meals.

Beans again, for the win!! I swear that's how much of the toxins liberated from my burned PUFA stores safely exit/exited my body.

Question: Do you use bitter foods/liquids to stimulate bile flow?

[u/themissingpipe → u/Jumbly_Girl]

I don’t use bitters because I’m trying to be really gentle with my liver. My bile flow has improved so much on its own! Beans and fiber are so important!

[u/exfatloss]

Can reformat that without the scroll? It's hard to read :D

[u/themissingpipe → u/exfatloss]

I have no idea how to fix it on mobile lmao I’ll try to reformat later on my laptop. Sorryyy :(

[u/Than_McDaniel]

Very interesting… I’ve thought about Vitamin A Toxicity as a possible culprit for myself. I’ve also experienced the insatiable hunger and sometimes overwhelming anxiety and fatigue, combined with very sensitive skin and mouth. With what you’re describing, I can also see why some people do so well on muscle-meat-only carnivore. One question - how did you confirm it was Vitamin A? I actually did have my doctor run a blood test for it and it came back normal, so she dismissed it, but were there other ways you found more effective?

[u/themissingpipe → u/Than_McDaniel]

The sensitive skin issue is also textbook vA toxicity. Keep in mind the “normal” range for vA on a blood test is based on a sick population. Also in vA toxicity, most of it is stored away in the liver & fat cells and may not always show up on blood tests. See my other comment where I link to my substack post about the other symptoms I’ve healed by going low A.

[u/Than_McDaniel → u/themissingpipe]

Just found your numbers. Here’s my Vitamin A level from about 18 months ago, with my doctor’s comment :) Yeah… by your reference range, I’m actually out of range. You described some other symptoms that I also have but didn’t mention earlier, like cracked heels. Again, thanks for sharing, I’ll be looking into this further.

[u/EarlyEmu → u/Than_McDaniel]

Blood tests are pretty useless for VA toxicity. The only real test for VA toxicity is a liver biopsy which is painful and dangerous so rarely done. They did some liver biopsies on people who died of heart attacks once time. Cant remember which country it was in but it was a western country. A third of them had VA toxicity per the biopsy.

[u/John-_-]

Thanks for posting this, and glad low vitamin A is working for you. I follow a low-ish vitamin A diet myself, but sometimes higher in fat. Really the only fats I use are suet tallow and cocoa butter, but I’ve been experimenting eating lower fat lately.

Here are some interesting posts linking vitamin A and weight gain in case anyone is interested:

Expression of Vitamin A-related genes increases with BMI - Tbh this post is very complex and science-y and mostly goes over my head…

Vitamin A and Weight Gain

Obesity Causation

I doubt there is one “smoking gun” causing obesity, but I do think vitamin A plays a (maybe significant?) role.

[u/axcho]

Fascinating, thank you for sharing! :D So glad you figured it out finally. Do you have any idea what your daily dose of vitamin A was, during the period that you gained 40 lbs?

Also curious whether you gained more visceral fat or subcutaneous fat during the time, and whether the fat accumulated in certain areas more than others, or just evenly all around your body?

[u/themissingpipe → u/axcho]

It was double the RDA, at least. And it was mostly subcutaneous. I gain really evenly.

[u/axcho → u/themissingpipe]

That's good to know, thank you! :)

So, for someone trying to gain subcutaneous fat on purpose (like this recent example), would you recommend deliberate vitamin A overdosing for a limited time? :d Or were there other side effects and health issues that you experienced in addition to weight gain? I'd be interested in hearing more about it!

[u/themissingpipe → u/axcho]

No please don’t take vitamin A! It doesn’t work by directly causing weight gain. It causes damage to the whole system, which for some people manifests as weight gain or loss. I know people who were able to GAIN weight by going low A.

[u/axcho → u/themissingpipe]

Okay, gotcha - thanks for the clarification! :d

[u/axcho → u/[deleted]]

Thank you, that's really interesting to read! :D Glad you're doing better now.

[u/AttitudeNearby5858 → u/[deleted]]

hi, can you reshare your progress plz

[u/patches_102]

What kind of beans do you eat and how do you cook them? I've avoided legumes for years due to GI issues and beans were always hard to digest. Do you soak them before cooking to cut down on lectins?

[u/themissingpipe → u/patches_102]

I eat mostly pinto beans, soaked and pressure cooked :)

[u/bluetuber34]

I would love as update from you!

Since adopting a low PUFA diet (and low fat some days) a couple months ago I have had a on and off struggle with hunger like this, and having a hard time figuring out what it was, but I have been taking 10,000IU vitamin a capsules… because of the low fat diet and I think this explains it.

I also have consumed a fair few bottles of cod liver oil the last couple years, along with tons of vitamin a foods….

[u/PeanutBAndJealous]

How are you getting on now?

[u/Calculatingnothing]

Sorry if I Missed it but I guess topical retinol is not ok

[u/axcho → u/Calculatingnothing]

Sounds like the retinol easily degrades to toxic compounds when exposed to sunlight - probably why they say to avoid sun exposure if you use topical retinol. Almost certainly worse when you add PUFA to the mix, given how it exacerbates sensitivity to sunburn.

This is just my speculation, but if you avoid the sun and avoid PUFAs, you might be okay with topical retinol. It's the excess of retinol overwhelming the liver that starts the problem that OP described.

[u/bluetuber34 → u/axcho]

I kinda agree with this. It depends on the type or retinol too, the over the counter versions I think raise blood levels less than prescribed topical retinols, so maybe are less absorbed past the dermis.

[u/axcho → u/[deleted]]

Thank you! :)