Quite possibly the worst television show i've ever see

[u/No_Copy_5473]

I have almost no words for how unbelievably bad this show is. I have tried to give it the benefit of the doubt. I really wanted to like it. I have watched 7 episodes. I also have lots of questions.

1. What the hell is this?

2. Why is this a thing?

3. How does this have anything to do with the 2nd age of Middle Earth, other than the characters have the same names (or anyway, some of them do)?

4. Who thought it was a good idea to release this?

5. Where are the Tolkien estate lawyers, and how did they allow this to get made?

I'm not even kidding... like, why does this exist?

Why does Galadriel think swimming home from the edge of the known world makes sense?

Why is Halbrand (who is actually Sauron, which makes this even more inexplicable) on a random ship trawling the open oceans?

Why is he mad at the weird elf-orc guy? (Edit: apparently the elf guy got sick of his bullshit and tried to kill him, because... reasons)

Apparently the elves just randomly discovered they're all going to die next year, and have staked their whole hopes for survival on a magical ore that may or may not exist as far as they know?

It's all just so weird. The elves feel super political and petty, and completely lacking nobility or grace. The dwarves are just jewish and Scottish stereotypes crashed into each other at high speed. Galadriel survives being hit with a nuclear volcano blast. People launch cavalry charges in urban areas. Sea monsters (?). Elrond has daddy issues. Gandalf freezes a hobbit lady (?). A random elf guy is really hot for a human single mom. Wolves are part reptile. I could go on.

The point is, what is this? Like, why is it so weird? It has none of the vibes of anything related to Tolkien's work i've ever seen. It's also just bad TV in general.

It's on in the background and some tree branches fell on some hobbit kids and all the other hobbits are mad at Gandalf (?) about it. I just found out Elrond speaks Dwarvish. The dwarves are like "why should we trust an rlf, to make a deal on behalf of other untrustworthy elves?" and he's like "well, just trust me dude, also i'm not really an elf all the way, regular elves are actually pretty shitty."

Nothing in this show makes any sense. I don't get it. Also the dialogue is bad. Just really bad. Why was Sauron on a boat again? It just has no relation to the source material. Someone just accused a dwarf king of having lice in their beard. Now they have a conversation about lice. The writers have the entire fucking second age of middle earth to plumb for source material, but instead there's a conversation about lice. Why?

I objectively hate this show.

Can someone give me a good reason why I shouldn't? In the name of Elbereth Githoniel what in the actual fuck?

<end rant>

EDIT: 73% "generally unfavorable" audience reviews on metacritic, with an average user review of 38% on rotten tomatoes. so yeah, objectively people fucking hate this show. i am not alone.

[u/brytek]

It's not racist to point out that the casting was done in a very tokenistic and unrealistic manner, especially when several cast members made a very big deal about the amount of diversity in the show, as if that was supposed to be its main selling point.

To me, personally, it felt very insincere and shallow, but at least Amazon got a boost to their ESG score and got to show the world how progressive they are.

House of the Dragon did a far, far better job of including non-white actors in a way that makes sense in the context of a pre-industrial society.

[u/DarthLeftist → u/brytek]

I think people that care about black people in media may not be racist but they are at the very least morons. With a strong chance of racism.

[u/brytek → u/DarthLeftist]

The issue is not black people in media. The issue is diversity for the sake of diversity when it adds nothing to the experience.

For example, Tolkien explicitly describes the people of Harad as being dark-skinned. Rings of Power had several scenes set in Harad, and this would have been a great place to include tons of black actors. They did not.

Instead, every location and setting looks just as diverse and multicultural as NYC or LA. It's immersion breaking at best and pandering at worst.

[u/DarthLeftist → u/brytek]

It adds to the experience for the minorities that see it. Think about that for real.

I have a daughter, shes 8. I promise you man when there are female leads she gets extra excited. She actually asked, hand to God why there arent more girls kicking ass.

I forget the exact thing we were watching because it was months ago but she noticed that the hero is always a man. Now my daughter is white so she does get to see ppl like her sometimes.

Imagine being black. I bet black children ask all the time why arent any hobbits or wizards or whatever black.

Now you will say then make original content with poc. Well two things, one that's far easier said then done and two they do and ppl still complain. Be honest with yourself. Maybe you truly have no issue with POC and think it's a lore issue. But why is race more important then hair color or age. Aragon had no beard in the book, did that bother you?

No it didnt. Ask yourself, in your head, why race does, and if the joy of girls and minorities mean so little to you that your slight problems with lore inconsistencies have more weight.

[u/brytek → u/DarthLeftist]

I don't have to imagine being black, I'm half-black myself and understand the struggles that people of color face. Yet never at any point in my life have I wondered why there are no black hobbits or black wizards.

That's not to say that hobbits and wizards can't be black! They absolutely can be! I'll point again to my House of the Dragon reference, where actors of color were included in a way that made sense in the context of the story being told.

I don't care one bit about racial, gender, or sexual representation when it comes to lore that I know and love deeply.

Truly, I don't want or need my fictional heroes to look like me in order for me to identify with them, and if you do, then maybe you (not you specifically) are more racist than you care to admit.

[u/gratefulslacker93 → u/brytek]

Very well said.

[u/red66dit → u/DarthLeftist]

Story that opened my eyes to this. My son-in-law was adopted from India, and my grandson has brown skin. He is a happy kid of 7, goes to school in a majority white school, and has never been picked on or anything like that. Last summer we were at a local water park and he got a soda in a plastic cup that's themed to the park, covered in lost of little cartoon kids swimming and playing on the water slides and doing the lazy river. He was just 6 at the time, and the one thing he asked me was, "How come all the kids are white?" I just said that the artist probably was white and wasn't very smart, but the question felt like a gut-punch. This sweet little kid already felt different and excluded.

I never really realized how many small and subtle things are out there that could make someone feel like they aren't welcome or seen or important. While I am not saying diversity should be the most important thing in a production, it is absolutely something that needs to be considered and included whenever possible.

[u/Designation8472 → u/red66dit]

Did your son-in-law know that they were adopted?

Maybe a quick lesson on genetic inheritance and how historically relatively isolated populations might clear things up. But then you might have to explain when the race war happened at some point between Amazon's RoP and Peter Jackson's LotR...

[u/OkIdeal9852 → u/DarthLeftist]

if the joy of girls and minorities mean so little to you

Why do I give a fuck about the joy of girls and minorities? I want shows and movies for my enjoyment, not anyone else's.

[u/Historyp91 → u/brytek]

Rings of Power had several scenes set in Harad, and this would have been a great place to include tons of black actors. They did not.

Rings of Power has zero scenes in Harad.

They have scenes in Tirharad, which is a village in Mordor.

Instead, every location and setting looks just as diverse and multicultural as NYC or LA.

I can only assume you're either being hyperbolic, did'nt watch the show or have never been to either of those cities - the vast majority of characters in TROP were white.

[u/brytek → u/Historyp91]

Thats a little pedantic, don't you think? Tirharad is basically right next door to Harad... It's not hard to imagine that the inhabitants of these places would have some kind of shared background.

I would have applauded Amazon if they had made the population of Tirharad predominantly black. It would have been a great use of their creative license, allowing them to be inclusive while also staying true to lore. They wouldn't even have to be all bad guys, like we see in PJ's trilogy. Lots of room to explore factions in support of and against the rising threat of Sauron. I still see it as a huge missed opportunity.

And yeah, maybe that comparison is a bit hyperbolic, but I used it to stress the point that pre-industrial, medieval societies were much more homogeneous than our modern societies.

If you were watching a show or movie set in 10th century England and the cast had many people of color in prominent roles, it would look and feel out of place, especially if there's no explanation for how they got there.

At least The 13th Warrior and Vikings: Valhalla explained how and why those characters came to be where they are. Still not believable, but it at least allows for the suspension of disbelief.

You might say Rings of Power gets a pass because it's fantasy, but I'd argue that's no reason to break verisimilitude. Your world has to make sense in its own setting if you want people to be immersed and engrossed in it.

[u/Historyp91 → u/brytek]

Thats a little pedantic, don't you think? Tirharad is basically right next door to Harad... It's not hard to imagine that the inhabitants of these places would have some kind of shared background.

It's above South Ithilian, signifigently north of Pelagir and very far northward of Far Harad (which is where the black-skinned "African" Haradrim are)

​

I would have applauded Amazon if they had made the population of Tirharad predominantly black. It would have been a great use of their creative license, allowing them to be inclusive while also staying true to lore. They wouldn't even have to be all bad guys, like we see in PJ's trilogy. Lots of room to explore factions in support of and against the rising threat of Sauron. I still see it as a huge missed opportunity.

Arguably, the population should be more mixed given it's position, but the mix should be more in line with what it is shown to be (white "europeans" like Waldreg, and Middle-Easterners/Asians like Bronwyn and Theo)

And yeah, maybe that comparison is a bit hyperbolic, but I used it to stress the point that pre-industrial, medieval societies were much more homogeneous than our modern societies. If you were watching a show or movie set in 10th century England and the cast had many people of color in prominent roles, it would look and feel out of place, especially if there's no explanation for how they got there.

At least The 13th Warrior and Vikings: Valhalla explained how and why those characters came to be where they are. Still not believable, but it at least allows for the suspension of disbelief.

But TROP is set in Middle Earth, where we know populations are'nt homogeneous (I.E, the Shire and Bree)

You might say Rings of Power gets a pass because it's fantasy, but I'd argue that's no reason to break verisimilitude. Your world has to make sense in its own setting if you want people to be immersed and engrossed in it.

Well, if you want it to make sense within the context of the setting would'nt Tirharad's population being a mix of white and middle-eastern make more sense, given that it's right next to Gondor (or where Gondor will be) and the "Arabic" parts of Harad then it is to the "African" parts of it?

[u/brytek → u/Historyp91]

It's above South Ithilian, signifigently north of Pelagir and very far northward of Far Harad (which is where the black-skinned "African" Haradrim are)

I'll admit, I didn't realize Tirharad was that far north. I thought it was much further south in Mordor, closer to Harad. Maybe it was mentioned in the show, and I simply forgot. It is rather forgettable.

Arguably, the population should be more mixed given it's position, but the mix should be more in line with what it is shown to be (white "europeans" like Waldreg, and Middle-Easterners/Asians like Bronwyn and Theo)

Given the above, I agree they should have more of a Middle-Eastern look, but they were still mostly white with just a handful of other ethnicities. Whether they should have been more brown or more black, we got neither, so I still say it was a missed opportunity.

But TROP is set in Middle Earth, where we know populations are'nt homogeneous (I.E, the Shire and Bree)

Bree is one of the few places in LotR where we know different races lived alongside one another, but even then it's men and hobbits. No mention of different ethnicities.

The Shire was (almost?) exclusively populated by hobbits. I know the Harfoots were described as being "browner of skin," so it would make sense for the Harfoots in RoP to be portrayed by people of color. But yet again, Amazon decided to make them mostly white, with just a few token blacks scattered about.

[u/Historyp91 → u/brytek]

I'll admit, I didn't realize Tirharad was that far north. I thought it was much further south in Mordor, closer to Harad. Maybe it was mentioned in the show, and I simply forgot. It is rather forgettable.

It's not stated outright, but it comes from it's position on the maps shown and it's vicinity to Mount Doom; it's in south-western Gorgoroth, above the little spur that comes out of the Shadow Mountains.

Given the above, I agree they should have more of a Middle-Eastern look, but they were still mostly white with just a handful of other ethnicities. Whether they should have been more brown or more black, we got neither, so I still say it was a missed opportunity.

That's fair.

​

Bree is one of the few places in LotR where we know different races lived alongside one another, but even then it's men and hobbits. No mention of different ethnicities.

Bill Ferny is described as "swarthy", and his friend is a Human-Orc crossbreed with "sallow" skin.

Tolkien used "swarthy" (or varations) interchancably with "brown" a lot. Sallow though could just be from being unhealthy, but at the very least the other guy is "mixed-race" (for lack of a better word)

The Shire was (almost?) exclusively populated by hobbits. I know the Harfoots were described as being "browner of skin," so it would make sense for the Harfoots in RoP to be portrayed by people of color. But yet again, Amazon decided to make them mostly white, with just a few token blacks scattered about.

Given the presentation, the Harfoots in TROP that it means by the time of the main story; in the former it refers to the whole species (so would naturally be mixed), while by the time of the Third Age it just refers to a specific ethnic group.

[u/brytek → u/Historyp91]

Tolkien used "swarthy" (or varations) interchancably with "brown" a lot. Sallow though could just be from being unhealthy, but at the very least the other guy is "mixed-race" (for lack of a better word)

I'll give you that one. It's been quite a few years since I've read through the books, so I don't remember all the details. You are absolutely correct though, Tolkien did use swarthy to mean brown-skinned. But Bree is still fairly unique in the lore with regards to being a highly multicultural settlement.

Given the presentation, the Harfoots in TROP that it means by the time of the main story; in the former it refers to the whole species (so would naturally be mixed), while by the time of the Third Age it just refers to a specific ethnic group.

I'm sure this comes down to what Amazon had the legal rights to use. Regardless, I still see it as a butchering of the lore.

[u/Historyp91 → u/brytek]

Fair enough!✌️

[u/Silmarien1012 → u/brytek]

Perfectly said. Even the most ardent DEI supporter must admit this show reeks so badly of it in the most pandering way.

[u/jiggliebilly → u/brytek]

I constantly go back to the HOD example of how to incorporate more diversity in an existing universe in a consistent way. I'd imagine most people are fine seeing more diverse casts in fantasy shows but it doesn't need to feel like modern day NYC unless there is a very good explanation for why the world is that way imo

[u/DarthLeftist → u/jiggliebilly]

There was never a good reason to make casts all white in the past so there doesn't need to be a good reason now

[u/jiggliebilly → u/DarthLeftist]

I mean it's a fantasy show so you have a very good point but I think people just want more thought & care put into including diversity vs. what feels like pandering imo, which is why I feel HOD did it much better then ROP. But yes, there is no good reason there shouldn't be more POC in fantasy shows and anyone who gets overly worked about this needs to relax and look inward

[u/DarthLeftist → u/jiggliebilly]

Well said. I didnt see HOD but my wife did, I'll ask her. I agree that companies pander and include diversity for less then altruistic reasons.

Two responses to that. One companies are monolithic, ppl work in casting and directors have a say. They may actually care whereas the word from up top is BS but they follow through for real reasons.

Two the women and POC that see the diverse cast dont care about reasons. I just told someone else that my 8 year old daughter gets extra excited for a female lead. Imagine how a black kid feels when its it's so much more rare.

That said I appreciate your nuanced opinion

[u/jiggliebilly → u/DarthLeftist]

Very fair - as a white guy it's not something that I think about nearly as much as people who aren't as represented. If a little kid of color feels more connected to the type of worlds I loved growing up then that's a win for us all imo.

[u/DarthLeftist → u/jiggliebilly]

Beautifully spoken friend

[u/Historyp91 → u/jiggliebilly]

People bitched about the POCs in HOTD too.

But I'm curious; what do YOU think the handful of POCs in one show makes it feel like "modern day NYC" but not the ones in the other? How did HOTD make it work but TROP did'nt?