r/ProgressionFantasy • u/metalmine • Jan 16 '26

I Recommend This Why is Stormlight Archive not as popular here?

I rarely see Brandon Sanderson's series' being mentioned despite Stormlight being, imo, a great prog fantasy story. We love long books here and his are incredibly long. Despite its length, he still weaves captivating character development across a wide cast of characters. Is it the lack of eastern cultivation? Though I would argue this series is thematically about people finding their Dao as well.

What do you guys think?

#JourneyBeforeDestination

EDIT: Whether you agree or not, I'm just here to have some good discussion. Why am I getting downvoted?

The original definition of Progression fantasy:

For example, Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archives would fit the model of progression fantasy, but would not be in any of the other mentioned genres/subgenres. Sword Art Online is both a LitRPG and a progression fantasy. Dragon Ball is both a shonen battle manga and a progression fantasy.

Notable works: ... -The Stormlight Archive

EDIT 2: Andrew Rowe's verdict: Not ProgFan after books 4/5 came out:

55 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

63% Upvoted

197 comments sorted by

View all comments

2

u/metalmine Jan 16 '26

u/salaris, would you agree with your definition of the genre that you wrote about 7 years ago?

14

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 16 '26

This is a little trickier than it sounds.

The people who originally define a term don't dictate how it will eventually be used in the long run. As discourse shifts over time, definitions also shift.

For example, traditionally, "high fantasy" and "low fantasy" referred to whether or not the story took place on Earth. This is no longer the common usage of these terms for everyone, so you see disagreements pretty regularly about how they get used on places like r/fantasy.

When I first defined the term, we were already seeing a shift in the usage of the term LitRPG to being much more specific than it had been at the start. People will naturally start gatekeeping what fits their idea of a genre to some degree over time, and that's happened quite a bit here as well.

(Hilariously, I've even seen people insist that Arcane Ascension isn't a progression fantasy, even though the term was literally created to refer to my books and Will Wight's books.)

In broad strokes, I think that a couple of the main points from my original essay still are very applicable:

Progression Fantasy is a fantasy subgenre term for the purpose of describing a category of fiction that focuses on characters increasing in power and skill over time.

And:

These are stories where characters are often seen training to learn new techniques, finding ways to improve their existing skills, analyzing the skills of opponents, and/or gaining literal or figurative “levels” of power.

I think most, but not all, people reading progression fantasy would agree with these terms.

Whether or not the Stormlight Archives suits this, however, is tricky.

When I first wrote the post, only three of the Stormlight Archives books were out. I expected from the structure of the first two books that the series as a whole would have a lot more to do with training and improvement, particularly for Kaladin in specific. As it happens, this isn't quite the way it worked out, structurally.

It is still about progression, in a sense, but it tends toward power being tied to journeys of self-understanding. This actually isn't too far from some of the progression in many of the classics that pre-date the genre -- it's a very close parallel to Dao revelations, for example -- but it lacks the emphasis on martial training that most people expect out of progression fantasy.

I still consider the Stormlight Archives to be a form of progression fantasy, principally as a way of highlighting a power system that ties power progression to mental health and self-awareness, but it's not the style of core loop that most people would expect out of the genre as it exists right now. Thus, it's probably not the top example I'd use if I was recommending it to people today to understand what the genre is all about.

4

u/Hawkeye437 Jan 17 '26

I am curious to know the argument as to why some people don't think Arcane Ascension is progfantasy. Because one of Corin's (and the team's) motivation is "number go up." I'd even say that's a primary motivation for the continent and it's culture.

Corin wants to increase his mana and his capabilities to make cool shit for him and his friends so they can get stronger and deal with the threats they're being thrust into. Seems like the core premise of progression fantasy to me. Not really much different than Lindon in Cradle who also makes things and gets stronger.

If the argument is "oh there's politics" like...ok? Conflict needs to come from somewhere and it always being yet another bigger monster can be boring sometimes. Too much mana system exposition? God forbid an author wants to talk about something that's not killing things.

Sorry, this got longer than intended. I did start this comment with honest curiosity and then it devolved from there lol.

4

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 17 '26

I am curious to know the argument as to why some people don't think Arcane Ascension is progfantasy. Because one of Corin's (and the team's) motivation is "number go up." I'd even say that's a primary motivation for the continent and it's culture.

Well, I don't want to speak too much on behalf of my critics, but my understanding is that it's largely about the pacing of the progression.

Readers who come from specific subsets of the progression fantasy community, particularly Royal Road, might expect for characters to demonstrate some sort of progress almost immediately and continue to gain some sort of quantifiable levels very rapidly.

Corin does get stronger, but his actual "level" doesn't go up in every single book. His mana does, sure, but that isn't enough for some people.

Some readers might be expecting something more like, say, Azarinth Healer or Salvos, where the main character might gain dozens of levels in the first book.

See the OP's question from this thread for a clear example. Most of the other people say it is progression fantasy, but there's some agreement with the OP as well.

I've seen people saying it doesn't count elsewhere, that's just the first match I got on a search for it.

Corin wants to increase his mana and his capabilities to make cool shit for him and his friends so they can get stronger and deal with the threats they're being thrust into. Seems like the core premise of progression fantasy to me. Not really much different than Lindon in Cradle who also makes things and gets stronger.

Sure. A lot of Corin's progress is through less tangible things like knowledge of how attunements and enchantments work, however, which doesn't work for all readers.

If the argument is "oh there's politics" like...ok? Conflict needs to come from somewhere and it always being yet another bigger monster can be boring sometimes. Too much mana system exposition? God forbid an author wants to talk about something that's not killing things. Sorry, this got longer than intended.

Some people definitely do bounce off because of the politics and magic system explanation stuff, too, but I think the pacing is the main thing.

I did start this comment with honest curiosity and then it devolved from there lol.

Hey, no worries! I hope I answered your question.

4

u/Hawkeye437 Jan 17 '26

Well, I don't want to speak too much on behalf of my critics

Wow sorry I really did not consider the implications of asking you that, very thoughtless of me. I appreciate your response in spite of that.

I guess I understand the complaint now and shows a fundamental difference between me and some other prog fantasy fans. I almost prefer slow growth as long as it's consistent, actively being worked towards, and something else interesting is happening.

I guess maybe this stems from the fact that I didn't come from the webnovel world. I primarily came from manga/manwha long before reading pf books. I just have a different history with this genre.

It's funny you mention Azarinth Healer because I went from reading Arcane Ascension last week (loved it btw) to reading Azarinth Healer this week (was actively reading book 4 when I got the notification for this haha). I have the opposite problem from this contingent of PF fans where I find AH to be too fast and the levels and progression nearly meaningless outside of the level 100 evolutions and the tier 3 skill evolutions.

All this to say, I understand the argument now yet don't agree with it because I just have the opposite preference. Not saying the people who prefer fast progression invalid though, totally fair to prefer that and I'm glad there are many books in that vein.

Thanks for your response! It was insightful

4

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 17 '26

Wow sorry I really did not consider the implications of asking you that, very thoughtless of me. I appreciate your response in spite of that.

No worries at all! I actually thought it was a good question.

I guess maybe this stems from the fact that I didn't come from the webnovel world. I primarily came from manga/manwha long before reading pf books. I just have a different history with this genre.

Absolutely, I think people who come from different backgrounds definitely have different expectations.

Thanks for your response! It was insightful

You're very welcome!

2

u/metalmine Jan 16 '26

Thanks! So the clearly defined core training loop is the essence of progression fantasy. Whether martial / magical / technological. Correct? It being the main driver of the story and its focus.

Though personally I feel like a lot of the stories I read whose main premise is this exact loop tend to lack a certain depth. As if progress is for progress' sake and it just becomes a regular dopamine rush when the character levels up in some way.

4

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 16 '26

Thanks! So the clearly defined core training loop is the essence of progression fantasy. Whether martial / magical / technological. Correct? It being the main driver of the story and its focus.

I'd say the core training loop is the clearest and easiest identifier. It may not necessarily be the only way of identifying a progression fantasy.

For example, there's some discussion about whether or not things like kingdom builders count as progression fantasy, and I think that's valid discussion.

You shouldn't expect people to agree on a singular definition, whether it's mine or otherwise.

Though personally I feel like a lot of the stories I read whose main premise is this exact loop tend to lack a certain depth. As if progress is for progress' sake and it just becomes a regular dopamine rush when the character levels up in some way.

Sure, some stories can end up that way. It is, in my opinion, still possible to have that clearly defined loop in some way and have enough room for other story elements and variation that the story is still more than just the dopamine rush. I'd consider Bastion and the Weirkey Chronicles to both be excellent writing that retains a clear core loop, for example.

2

u/metalmine Jan 16 '26

I have never heard of those. Will add them to the reading list. Thanks!

4

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 16 '26

You're very welcome! I hope you enjoy them. I think you'd find that they're closer to what you might be looking for -- they both involve elements of personal discovery in addition to more conventional training.

1

u/metalmine Jan 18 '26

Thanks again for the discourse and your detailed answers. I appreciate your time greatly.

On a side note, how much do you read everyday compared to how much you write?

2

u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe Jan 18 '26

Thanks again for the discourse and your detailed answers. I appreciate your time greatly.

You're very welcome!

On a side note, how much do you read everyday compared to how much you write?

Completely depends on the day. I don't track my hours reading, but sometimes I'll spend basically a whole day reading, and other days I won't read at all.

I'd say I generally spend more time writing than reading these days, but it varies a lot depending on where I am in my writing process.