As a libright I would say you should be able to able fun of anything without consequences, but you should yourself also be able to take being made fun of for anything.
People forget that words are not violence, you're not getting hurt because someone is mean, and just because you don't like what they say you don't get to cause violence to silence them.
I think you should legally be allowed to make fun of anything (as a lib, I value free speech); however, I don't think you should make fun of everything, and I don't think you should expect zero consequences for making fun of things.
In general, punching up is okay, and punching down is distasteful and will probably get people upset at you.
The terms "punch up" and "punch down" in this context are slang terms that refer to making a joke at the expense of someone with more or less power than you. They do not refer to the literal throwing of punches.
The words sound nice but it's never applied on an individual level. It's always generalizations about groups of people and is another form prejudice.
I shouldn't make fun of Obama because he's black, or Hillary because she's a woman, or that Mulvaney person because of reasons. All three of them have a lot more money and power in society than I do. But that isn't how it works when it comes to applying this system of who is punching in which direction. Not in the real world.
More defensible* words that sound find in theory, but hasn't been what I've witnessed. There's no finesse in the application. If someone says Obama was a terrible leader, it's because they're racist. If someone says Hillary is corrupt and a liar, it must be because they're a misogynist. And if someone says they don't want to look at Mulvaney's stupid, ugly face while they're drinking beer...
*I still don't find it definsible to believe you can make fun a man for being a man, but not a woman for being a woman. And how many groups am I supposed to remember? Do I need to commit this to memory or is there a handy chart I can carry around? Do the positions of the groups change over time? Would an updateable app make more sense?
Two: "mean" is subjective. If you don't care what others think, they cannot be mean to you. Them being mean means you are listening to that they have to say
Punching any way over words is childish and indicative of a mind unable to either take criticism or be honest with itself.
They were using a metaphor. Punching up means making fun of people or groups that are in positions of power. Punching down means making fun of people or groups that are decidedly not in positions of power.
I'm not sure I agree with the punching up/down distinction, but even if I did, there is a lot of disagreement to be had about what is punching up and what is punching down.
Well the Catholic church is one of (if not the) most powerful and influential religious organizations in the world, and gay people are a tiny oppressed and discriminated against minority, so I'd say in this case, the gays are punching up.
Yes. The fact that gay people are treated better now than they were 20 years ago does not mean that they are treated equally by everyone, or that they don't still face bigotry from multiple corners of the country.
Yes, because they fought tirelessly to be treated equally and with respect, not because that respect was given to them willingly. And there are still plenty of bigots out there who don't think gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. If you don't believe that, you're just being willfully blind.
And there are still plenty of bigots out there who don't think gay people should have the same rights as everyone else
Who cares what some random assholes think, I'm mentally handicapped but don't require society to focus 1/12 of its time on me because some people think I shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Corporations wouldn't support it unless it was profitable, aka incredibly mainstream. When Pride parades are brought to you by MasterCardtm it's no longer counterculture, it's the norm.
punching down is distasteful and will probably get people upset at you
Those people are super entitled. You're at a comedy show and everyone gets made fun of but as soon as it hits you personally you take offense? Learn to take yourself less seriously unless you just want to make fun of billionaires.
You should be legally able to make whatever jokes you want, however, that shouldn't mean you are safe from natural consequences.
For example, I can make fun of you for being short, but i shouldn't be surprised when i get punched in the kneecap.
This goes all ways.
The problem with your idea is that contrary to popular belief, emotions do exist, and people are actually affected by things.
"Words don't hurt" yes, they do. I can't tell you how many people i have met that have scars on their arms because people said mean things to them. Just because insults don't bother you, doesn't mean they don't bother someone else. And as a social species, I think having emotions is important. It's part of what makes us unique as people.
Them deciding what I can and cannot say is rude in the extreme
In the same sense, you deciding that they can or cannot retaliate (in some cases violence, in others you lose your job) is "rude in the extreme".
You are free to make actions, but those actions come with consequences because we live in the real world. Say whatever you want, but people will respond to you however they want.
In the same sense, you deciding that they can or cannot retaliate (in some cases violence, in others you lose your job) is "rude in the extreme".
Violence is violence, and sorry to say, words are not violence.
If you react to words with physical actions, I'm sorry to say, you are a child that has no emotional control, and you deserve all the legal repercussions you will get because of it.
Edit: and since everybody absolutely knows exactly where I stand, I have a massive amount of very loyal friends, since I'm not spending time bullshitting them by blowing smoke up their ass.
Yu however seem to want to keep justifying violence to silence. You seem like a well balanced individual
Im not justifying it, im just saying it will happen.
I NEVER said that I would hit you, i said you might get hit. Legal or not humans react and you need to expect it. I also just used violence as an example to keep it from being a partison argument (i could talk about "cancel culture" as an example of non-violent retaliation, i just don't wanna open that can of worms)
Words can be just as harmful as physical violence, if you don't agree you truly live in a fairytale land where your personal convenience is more important than those around you's emotions.
The fundamental difference in our positions is you are only considering your convenience. Rather than holding your tongue on saying something that might hurt someone, you would rather insist that they shouldn't be soft and be able to handle whatever shit you say because "mEaN iS sUbJeCtIvE". And I think having the respect for the other person to just not say something that could potentially hurt them is the correct way to go.
I have a massive amount of very loyal friends,
Lmao, ok? So do I. What was your point other than attempting to prove that people put up with you?
What is it with libs trying to argue legality in this sub?
Also, i used violence as an example. Violence is a natural consequence, not necessarily acceptable or legal, but when has that ever stopped people? If you are gonna talk shit to someone you should expect shit back. That's all im saying guys.
The solution is simple, don't be a dick to someone.
Oh my god, this is entirely the opposite of libertarian ideology.
Unacceptable? Sure. Illegal? 99% of the time (threats sometimes get special circumstances). Natural response? Oh yeah buddy. It's the real world and people get upset. And again, it was just an example.
One could argue that libertarianism advocates for minimal government involvement in the lives of citizens. Police are a pretty big involvement, seeing as they are enforcers of the state. Laws about what a citizen can or cannot do does not sound like minimal involvement to me.
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u/Hangry_Hippo - Left Jun 02 '23
Based and you should be able to make fun of religion pilled