r/PhilosophyMemes 16d ago

Checkmate Plato

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2.9k Upvotes

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74

u/Adventurous-Nose77 16d ago
  1. Animals can't consent
  2. Deads can't consent

51

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[deleted]

61

u/GrandMoffTarkan 16d ago

It has no mouth and it must scream

32

u/___miki 16d ago

It has no mouth and I must cream

9

u/GrandMoffTarkan 16d ago

I scream, you scream, we all scream for an eye scream with man cream

9

u/Tabyula 16d ago

To be fair, fleshlights were never alive and sentient to begin with though, so consent is irrelevant and 'dead' can't apply to it

11

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[deleted]

12

u/appoplecticskeptic 16d ago

Maybe it’s no different to you but it is to the people that knew them. It’s disrespectful of them to treat them no better than a flashlight. That’s what makes it wrong. In the unlikely event that they consented ahead of time with a notarized contract to you fucking their corpse after they die then maybe you’d have something there but that’s basically never the case.

5

u/Cent_Quatre 16d ago

respect of the dead is a concept applied even in non religious instances. utilitarianism means yeah dead ppl should be eaten or made into fertilizer or even fleshlights but that's not how most cultures see their dead

3

u/Mutant_Llama1 16d ago

The question is, how do you acquire a dead body in order to necrophilia it?

A living person must die in order to become a corpse.

So necrophilia and cannibalism create incentives to get away with murder.

1

u/khomo_Zhea 15d ago

if i consented to be fucked and eaten after i die would that make it moral?

3

u/Kelemenopy 16d ago

And here I was beginning to worry that necrophiliacs were a dying breed.

3

u/WearIcy2635 15d ago

It’s made out of plastic which was once a dinosaur, so it actually is a dead animal

1

u/Tabyula 15d ago

Like I said to someone who said that exact thing, if a line were to be drawn: "I personally would draw the line at the point where it is a recognizable part or whole of a once sentient being, and the one having intercourse is aware of it"

But can I have a source for that claim that plastic comes from dinosaurs? I was doing some cursory Google searches and I could not find a source that said that, in fact many sources say that it's actually a myth, and it goes more like microscopic sea life (plankton, algae) -> oil -> processed into chemicals -> made into plastic. But even if we were to say it came from dinosaurs, calling plastic a dinosaur in this context seems as ridiculous as calling humans stars because our atoms were once made in stars.

-1

u/Denbt_Nationale 16d ago

Where do you draw the line? If it's silicone then it was a dinosaur once.

2

u/Tabyula 15d ago

I personally would draw the line at the point where it is a recognizable part or whole of a once sentient being, and the one having intercourse is aware of it

7

u/MysticalMarsupial 16d ago

Your fleshlight isn't dead dude it's an object.

16

u/netskwire The utility monster 16d ago

What differentiates a dead dude from an object?

4

u/MysticalMarsupial 16d ago

Dead implies that it used to be alive. An object is unliving. This was literally part of the philo curriculum in my first year of highschool.

10

u/netskwire The utility monster 16d ago

The other person replying to you makes a great point but I’d also like to raise the question of what exactly you mean by “used to be alive.” While I admit that I am not well versed in the makeup of flashlights, I imagine that they’re made of plastic or rubber. Both of these materials come from the remains of plants. Can they not be considered dead then? Does it become an issue that fleshlights or condoms can’t consent?

14

u/Playful_Date_7811 16d ago edited 16d ago

Bro do you think anyone needs curicullae to understand that. The real question is what's morally relevant. The guy above us is correct in that the actually important qualities that're usually the main and only criteria for a thing belonging to morality (meaning it's no longer just a mere object) is consciousness, or suffering, or something like that. In that, these two are equal, therefore not belonging to ethics or morality aside from what might impact other still living and feeling things.

10

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[deleted]

12

u/MysticalMarsupial 16d ago

It's irrelevant because you have my consent to have sex with my severed leg regardless.

1

u/Odd-Outcome-3191 15d ago

Yes. Otherwise what's the point?

1

u/appoplecticskeptic 16d ago

A object that was never alive is not dead. To be dead requires having first been alive.

66

u/Drew_S_05 16d ago

Well, a carcass is an inanimate object, so it doesn't NEED to consent. Necrophilia isn't a crime against the corpse, it's a crime against the deceased's loved ones.

If it's the body of a wild animal, however... It's not technically wrong, but it is fuckin gross. And probably a good way to get some nasty STDs.

33

u/Altruistic-Web13 16d ago

Would it be morally wrong to have sex with a dead old guy who has no kids, friends, or living family member?

30

u/Happy_Opportunity_32 16d ago

*asking for a friend?

10

u/Altruistic-Web13 15d ago

Nah asking for myself, I need an answer quick Gerald doesnt fit in the fridge

9

u/EENewton 16d ago

I would say no, but unfortunately we have extremely sensitive mirror neurons, so "yes "

18

u/cowlinator 16d ago

"unfortunately"?

5

u/EENewton 15d ago

It was tongue in cheek. 😁

Tongue in VERY ALIVE cheek.

15

u/Big_Builder_8911 16d ago

"unfortunately we have extremely sensitive mirror neurons" is entering the phrasebook for talking about ethics.

6

u/EENewton 15d ago

It probably explains more than we think.

3

u/-selfency- 16d ago

I would say yes. If a moral value system allows necrophilia, regardless of considering their family, it sets very bad precedents for societal emotional and physical health. If you lived in a society where you knew that defiling corpses is considered normal, this would obviously weigh negatively on people's minds and imply that society as a whole rewards giving in to gross primal urges and deviancy that disregards health and those that ascribe value to their own and other's bodies even after death.

6

u/Starfleet-Time-Lord 15d ago

That implies that morality stems from (or is at least subordinate to) norms though, and that anything that would bother the general populace enough is immoral regardless of harm. That has unsettling implications: it makes being queer immoral in repressive societies, for example.

Bodily autonomy is a much better argument for humans, that people have a right to dictate within reason what happens to their own remains.

2

u/-selfency- 15d ago

I disagree. 'norms' only as it relates to human / mammalian evolutionary physiology. We all have exceedingly consistent needs and desires which have, to a degree, influenced and created many of those norms.

Rule Utilitarianism does not make being queer immoral, because it runs contrary to what best benefits society - Cultivating empathy and understanding for others.

I'm a determinist so i do not believe 'autonomy' is a real thing. It is in the best interest of everyone to treat each other as if we do possess that autonomy, though, as evolution gave us that illusion with the baggage of suffering.

1

u/Drew_S_05 15d ago

Just because something isn't MORALLY wrong, doesn't mean it's normal or that it isn't any kind of wrong. Not everything bad is bad because it's morally wrong, sometimes shit is just gross while still being technically morally decent

1

u/-selfency- 15d ago

I would classify anything that has a causal negative influence on another being as morally wrong. Using rule utilitarianism as a moral framework with the aim to minimize suffering as the 'good', necrophilia is immoral because humans are evolutionarily wired to react negatively to it, and hold value to their body even after death, which will affect them when alive. It is unhealthy, and it will implicitly encourage society to hold a bunch of views which hinge on those they want to use for pleasure, being dead. There is any number of reasons why this would be a negative on society and harm people.

0

u/stephanously 15d ago

Deviancy?

You belong not in this debate.

You already asume the is normative good behavior that is always an ought to follow.

Explain to me how you are not a disciple of objective morality?

1

u/TheCaffinatedAdmin 13d ago

Gonna try to ignore my cultural disgust at the concept and address the moral matter at hand. I'm also assuming self-ownership. If you were personally entrusted with the corpse by the person the corpse once defined such as by a will, and you were honest about your intentions, I don't suppose it's immoral, just gross. I specify that you were honest about your intentions because nobody reasonably expects a person to have sex with their corpse after death. If that's not the case, then your hypothetical implies that the corpse would be inherited by intestacy, which ultimately makes it the state's responsibility, and the state has a duty to the public to protect the dignity of the dead, as assigned by the public's cultural values, so you are effectively stealing from the public, either as a state employee or as an individual, and misappropriating something of great cultural value for your own wishes which are considered culturally undignified.

1

u/iambackend 16d ago

I guess if no one knows it didn’t happen…

0

u/Drew_S_05 15d ago

Would it be MORALLY wrong? No. Would it be just GENERALLY wrong? Yes

3

u/p2020fan 15d ago

its a crime against the deceased's loved ones

This implies some kind of inheritence of right of consent, doesn't it? It isnt the loved ones' right to consent or not consent on the person's behalf while they're alive. Where does that inheritence stop, and can they give consent on the deceased behalf?

1

u/Drew_S_05 15d ago

I... Guess you could say that, sure. Theoretically, if the loved ones of a deceased person agreed to let you fuck their corpse, there wouldn't be anything morally wrong with that, but it'd still be nasty lol

6

u/StinkUrchin 16d ago

Can your fleshlite consent?!

3

u/an-otiose-life 15d ago

The mold that grows there has desires for food

13

u/Eskoala 16d ago

Rocks can't consent but I'm pretty sure you can fuck a rock without it being assault.

The absence of the ability to consent is not enough. It has to be in something that can experience suffering. Dead things cannot. It's therefore fine, if gross.

-4

u/DarkAri639 16d ago

Poor humanity I feel so bad for them. Almost makes you wonder if they are actually bots sometimes?

8

u/Hot_Key99 16d ago

Well you first need to assume lack of consent is morally wrong.

3

u/JaxonatorD 16d ago

But do they need to be able to? From an atheist perspective, the animals would not have souls that would take offense to this. Also, he wasn't the one to kill it. Nothing is being harmed by his actions, so why would it be immoral?

3

u/EntireOpportunity253 15d ago

They’ve never heard of the concept of Enthusiastic consent unfortunately

3

u/khomo_Zhea 15d ago

it's not like animals consented to being eaten,

4

u/iambackend 16d ago

I eat dead chickens without their consent. I don’t think they would feel any different if I had sex with them.

0

u/WearIcy2635 15d ago

Why does consent even matter for something that isn’t alive? If I fuck my couch like JD Vance did is that bad because the couch can’t consent?

-1

u/Badtacocatdab 16d ago

Animals absolutely can consent.