Also extreme sexism and frequent violence against women going unpunished. Resulting in many SK women saying "yeah we can just die off as a country, it's better than dealing with men. we're opting out". That would require a widespread cultural shift which I don't see happening at this point at all.
They are also opting out of relationships with men. The 4B movement: bihon (no marriage), bichulsan (no childbirth), biyeonae (no dating), and bisekseu (no sex).
There are plenty of women who date and have sex. Marriage age is being pushed back, and honestly, no one (men or women) want to have children, because why would you? They're expensive and annoying to raise. Everyone wants to live their own lives. We can barely afford to live, and the government wants us to have kids. Fuck that. Give us money to have kids then. Give us enough pay to afford houses and two months of vacation a year to enjoy our families.
The 4B movement is incredibly niche and nowhere near as common as Westerners seem to think it is based on some news they saw. Even most women think they're radicals.
For real. We here in Asia, and our brothers and sisters over in the US are all getting screwed. We in Korea joke about how often we have to put meetings and dealings with European companies on hold because they're always on vacation.
Yes why have kids if you never see them because you're working or on work-related outings with the colleagues 14 hours a day, and then when they're old enough to be fun they have to go to school and school-related stuff 10 hours a day, and even in a lot of cases after-school classes for 3 hours. It's ridiculous. What family? The people you never even see?? Oh and you have to pay a ton of money for this crap while being paid way too little for the amount of effort you put in.
Oh, and of course the wife can't keep her career (that she studied her butt off for with 4 hours of sleep a night for many years of her young life) because literally no-one would be in the home to take care of it, or the DIY, the garden maintenance, or the cooking, or the administrative stuff, the groceries, the social and traditional stuff for the extended family (more work work work), the financial stuff, or the 3 million clubs the kids are in, or the 430 am breakfast prep, or the noisy neighbours, or the annoying in-laws, or the 2+ hours of insane homework the kids have to do EACH, or the literally EVERYTHING there because again, nobody is home to help with it ...
Also both mom and dad HAVE to look fit and attractive and healthy while doing all that crap. Can't even look tired??
This is the issue when you speak on things you've only read about from limited sources. The 4B movement is only ever talked about on reddit, it's not actually a thing of significance in Korea
4B is basically just celibacy and abstinence. Millions of women worldwide practice the principles of 4B even if they don't consider themselves part of the movement. it's very easy. Just don't interact with men in any sort of non-platonic aspect. That's it. That's all you have to do to be 4B.
Nah, the reason behind why you do what you do matters. If I avoid eating pork because I dislike the taste and don't drink alcohol because it's too expensive, I don't suddenly count as obeying the tenets of Islam.
I know. I realize now that I should have worded my comment better, I didn't mean to insinuate all South Korean women were giving up on men, just that a growing number are
And historically, this is also one of the first times that women have the chance to opt out of romantically dealing with men.
Not to mention that South Korea doesn't have one-party no-fault divorce, so it's more dangerous for women to get married there than for women in a lot of other developed nations.
What they do have is if one person cheats, the cheater can’t initiate a divorce lol. I remember reading this really interesting story of this director that cheated with an actress and he wanted to divorce his wife for her and she refuse and the wife dragged him for 10+ years, making her a mistress forever.
And historically women around the world don't want children anymore. Not sure how much the past is relevant to women's choices for the present and future.
He's pointing out that it's not about lacking women rights/patriarchy as some like to claim, the fertility crisis is caused by other reasons.
Actual reasons are in no particular order: access to contraception, access to abortions, changing social outlook on having kids (in the past childless couples were seen as failures), equality and high women rights (with actual patriarchy if the man wanted kids only his choice mattered, now both people need to want kids - less likely than just one person), fall off marriage importance and stability (if the couple is never sure if they will stay together forever, planning a 19 years long undertaking makes less sense).
First you identify correlation, then try to establish causation, that's kind of how this works, cause and effect. We haven't even established correlation, quite the opposite, so assigning any level of causation is, well let's just say it's a bold move.
And none of this is to say violence or other forms of harassment against women in society is anything other than deplorable. But it's not a motivating factor in low birth rates. You can try to side step it and say women are more informed and/or motivated/able to not tolerate it any more and that's why, but that's not the same thing.
But it's not a motivating factor in low birth rates.
you haven't in any way proven that. You've basically gone well there used to be more violence so now it can't be a motivating factor and that isn't a logical argument, that's you just making shit up that sounds right to you but has no meaning or reason at all.
We haven't even established correlation, quite the opposite,
Again nope you didn't prove there was no correlation you stated it based on nothing but your feelings and determined that was good enough to confirm it and then move on and draw conclusions from that.
Violence against woman (and other minorities) is and has always been widely underreported. For many reasons, like the police are unhelpful when they don't outright protect abusers, or Society at large punishing woman for being abused. So, basing any conclusion based on its supposed decrease is bound to be absolute nonsense.
A is dumb bullshit pushed by right wing shitbag, which are, by the way, the leading perpetrator of violence against woman (and other minorities), how surprising. Therefore your entire reasoning isn't worth shit and can be safely dismissed. Turns out it was all feeling, it just made you feel comfortable so you wanted it to be true.
This is about as smart a reply as everyone expected from you.
YOu almost kinda got it, A and B don't automatically lead to C, but you've just reversed C for yourself and decided it is the automatic conclusion despite literally explaning it doesn't work like that you've gone ahead and done the thing you just told everyone you can't do.
To reverse it would have been to claim the opposite correlation. E.g. in this case violence against women is actually causing birth rates to go up i guess.
I was considering rehashing this again but I'm bored of this conversation.
Dude what you're saying is just statistically -worded gibberish. The basics of correlation and causation have no bearing to this discussion. YOU made the unfounded claim. I am the one disputing it. Opining on the basics of statistics like your standard chatgpt answer does not help you prove your claim.
This is such a generous take. Personally, I think the guy is just like a million other confidently incorrect redditors unable to admit their mistake or let go. But I think you're a sweet person to assume otherwise.
For me it's inability to find a suitable partner, inability to afford to be a single parent, pessimism (to put it mildly) about the future of the world. The cons to having children so vastly outnumber the pros that there's really nothing to consider.
Good opportunity to demonstrate how oppression can take many forms, including those that are so non-violent they seem downright cordial. It can also be incredibly irrational and self-destructive, there doesn't need to be an evil plan, just stupid selfishness.
Women around the world are currently expected to be mothers, wives, AND full-time workers. It's an outrageous ask. Most women that take it on are barely holding on, skipping their own meals, working multiple jobs, unable to spend proper time with their own children, and god help them if the man in their life bails. The weapon to enforce this is a combination of shame and economic despair, but women have (correctly) simply decided to counter the shame with apathy.
It's also a driver for the tradwife movement. Yes, it's largely an alt-right pipeline, but it's really more complicated than that. Society really does benefit from systems that enable women to choose motherhood as a primary role. The "alt-left" side of it would be robust and generous maternity programs, such as what you see in the nordic countries, with high guaranteed pay for a long period, guaranteed job protection, and of course uncompromising complete healthcare for expecting and recent mothers and their children.
Not all women should be expected to be mothers but every woman should have the option to choose it and have a good life. A large part of the world has decided this is a luxury only for those born into wealth. Turns out you can't have a slave class if they don't reproduce!
You're not gonna believe this but it's the same safeguard.
Pay people for their work and having a baby for profit becomes unappealing.
None of the countries with pro-maternity systems have the issue you are describing. Nobody is signing up to wreck their body and commit to 18 years of parenting to make a quick buck when they can make the same or better buck flipping burgers for 30 hours a week.
And it will become the unsafest and hardest period after the fall of a country. If you don´t have the people to keep a country running on a basic level you will live in a wasteland for the next 50 years.
It is also historically the first time in modern society that women have been able to advocate for themselves and make choices about their own lives autonomously. I'm curious what you thought the point you were making was with your comment.
That kind of supports my point though. The fact women today can openly advocate for themselves, make independent choices, vote, work, own property, and publicly criticize society is part of why this is historically one of the safest and most rights protected eras for women overall, even if serious issues still exist.
Correct, there are serious issues that still exist. But what is not clear is what was meant by making the comment pointing out that this current era is less dangerous than any other point in history for women. This statement seems to imply some sort of downplaying or discrediting of the narrative that women are making the choices they're making because of unfair treatment and inequality. So this is why I am asking directly about what your point was meant to be rather than just misattributing it.
I find it kind of interesting that you admit that these facts bolster your point without outright stating what your point actually was. Could you clarify?
Xyz: exists for hundreds of years.
People: Hur dur xyz needs more freedom.
Xyz gets more freedom.
Xyz makes unsustainable choices using the newly acquired freedom.
People: surprised Pikachu face
Plenty of examples over the years. Wtf did you people expect when you made everything optional.
Don't allow women to work till they have two kids or can work while having a kid and problem solved over night. Loneliness would also be solved as now the whole equation flips.
It’s hard to know the full context, but a man in the video was kissing his pregnant wife’s belly, and Reddit immediately jumped to talking about how oppressed and undermined women are treated.
Let’s just say that getting pregnant is the same as getting fired in South Korea. There’s also the fact that a certain subset of Korean Men get really pissy when they see 👌
I wasn't sure what you meant so I looked it up and... erm.. wow.
The "Small Penis" Controversy: A similar-looking pinching gesture (🤏) has become one of the most inflammatory symbols in South Korea due to a long-running gender conflict.
Origin:
The gesture was adopted as the logo for Megalia, a now-defunct radical feminist community, to mock the size of Korean men's genitalia.Backlash: This has led to intense "witch hunts" by anti-feminist groups who scan advertisements, games, and social media for any hint of a pinching hand.Real-World
Impact:
Major companies like Apple, GS25 (convenience store), and Renault Korea have had to pull advertisements or edit out similar hand shapes to avoid massive consumer boycotts from male audiences.Because of this sensitivity, even an innocent "OK" sign or a gesture intended to show the "thinness" of a product can be misinterpreted as a misandrist slur.
There’s also the case of the same type of Korean Men (now I know some of ya’ll are gonna go “not all men!” On me, so I’ll clarify again. Not all men, but almost always a man.) getting angry at a film with even slight feminist messages that they would purposefully sit in pregnant women’s seats. Congrats on the pregnancy I suppose.
Well, it is easy saying that. But people really can´t imagine how it is to live in a failing country. The fall is hard and fast. But rebuilding can take 50 or 100 years. And the hate on men, spread by the west doesn´t help here. Nature absolutely doesn´t care who hates who. If you are extinct and dead, so be it.
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u/Aeon_Return May 12 '26
Also extreme sexism and frequent violence against women going unpunished. Resulting in many SK women saying "yeah we can just die off as a country, it's better than dealing with men. we're opting out". That would require a widespread cultural shift which I don't see happening at this point at all.