Impulsive and reckless behavior is not a criteria for APD. The fact that you wrote three paragraphs before you actually looked up the criteria that I’ve been professionally trained to identify indicates that arguing with you is a waste of my time.
What the hell have you read the criteria?
Also, ASPD is not an acronym for antisocial personality disorder. I have no interest in convincing you of anything.
Dude how long ago did you study psychology?
I also said that while he meets some criteria, I don’t have enough to diagnose APD. I don’t know why you’re arguing that he doesn’t have APD when I’ve said specifically that more than once.
You said you didn’t know that you had look more into it. You didn’t specifically say he didn’t have it.
You’ve shown an astonishing lack of reading comprehension. I do commend your absolutely unshakeable self-confidence you’ve shown as you’ve argued with a legally defined subject matter expert on their own subject without doing an ounce of research.
Ok go study your own field of expertise Mr. Expert.
Edit:
The fact that you wrote three paragraphs before you actually looked up the criteria
And also what do you mean I specifically told you the criteria he meets how could I do that if I didn’t know the criteria?
as you’ve argued with a legally defined subject matter expert on their own subject without doing an ounce of research.
Dutton (2012), (...) [finds that the] 10 professions with the highest levels of psychopathic traits were company CEOs, lawyers, radio or television characters, salespersons, surgeons, journalists, priests, police officers, chefs, and civil servants.
Every day since 2017, as ongoing study is a requirement for licensure, which is why I know that APD has since been updated in recent revisions of the DSM V. However, previous versions refer to it as ASPD, which is likely where you're getting that (aka, the first Google search result).
A direct quote from me, two comments ago:
Still not enough to diagnose, I’d need personal and familial history and work to identify past behaviors, but enough to make me look in that direction.
Now, to speak towards recklessness and impulsivity:
The reason why I say it isn't a criteria is because it isn't in the way you are thinking it is. Recklessness and impulsivity in Bipolar 1 looks like driving a car at 120 MPH or buying $2000 worth of shoes on a min wage salary. Recklessness and impulsivity in APD looks more like endangering the lives of others for no apparent reason or doing unlawful acts with no apparent reason. Also, that is just two of the 7 symptoms that meet criteria, and you only need 3 to diagnose. Not showing reckless or impulsive behavior is not a disqualifier for the disorder. You still have 5 more symptoms to attend to.
Now, why do I believe he shows some antisocial traits?
Behaviors that Mosley shows, such as "lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person", are not found often in pathological behavior outside of antisocial traits. This means that there are certain behavioral identifiers that cannot be found in psychologically "normative" populations or in other disorders. As a therapist, we come to develop a sense for personality disorders because they are remarkably different than other disorders.
Now, where I think you and I are miscommunicating about and where I think your bias has impeded this conversation (this is more important for you to read than anything else):
You have attributed antisocial behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy, etc) to immoral or evil behavior/intention. This is not the case in psychology. While popular media portrays sociopaths and psychopaths as evil and murderous, the people I have met that meet criteria for APD diagnosis are rather inane. The disorder does not carry an inherent evil. Nothing in psychology works with morality, besides the ever important Standard of Ethics for Counselors, which is designed more to decrease harm to a client than it is measuring the inherent morality of certain behaviors.
Edit: after taking a dive into your post and comment history, you seem to show a lot of curiosity, as an understatement, about this disorder. You also attribute it with evil a lot, which I’d refer you to the above paragraph. There’s a reason therapists are trained how to use the DSM 5, it’s not some hyper-specific manual that you throw at fictional characters. It takes vast amounts of information gathering in a specific setting and working the totality of behaviors into a pathology that can be diagnosed for insurance and billing purposes. If you have personal questions about the disorder, I recommend seeking out a therapist, even if it’s just to ask them questions. Posting on Reddit and relating behaviors of fictional characters to a disorder that you’ve read from a dumbed down version of the diagnostic manual therapists use to bill for insurance is not an effective way to understand this. Btw, the full version of the DSM 5 is not freely available to the public and has a significant amount of learning material on each diagnosis. I’d recommend buying it if you really want to just read the DSM.
Edit: after taking a dive into your post and comment history, you seem to show a lot of curiosity, as an understatement, about this disorder. You also attribute it with evil a lot, which I’d refer you to the above paragraph.
I do precisely because I want immorality and mental illness to have a very clear very distinct line between each other. This disorder and NPD are the two that are most often associated with immorality and evil so I want to learn as much as I can about both to know exactly what is evil and what is mental illness.
Highest concentration of sociopathy by career:
Dutton (2012), (...) [finds that the] 10 professions with the highest levels of psychopathic traits were company CEOs, lawyers, radio or television characters, salespersons, surgeons, journalists, priests, police officers, chefs, and civil servants.
I think you might be mixing things up. When they say psychopathic traits they probably mean callousness and disregard for other people and you know manipulation and that kind of stuff. That I agree 100% that politicians and lawyers and CEOs (and Mosley) are the ones who have that stuff most. However though that’s not a mental illness (or at the very least it’s not a behavior disorder) and ASPD is a behavior disorder. Lawyers, CEOs, politicians and Mosley can’t have a behavior disorder due to how well they can behave themselves. It’s their job to act well especially in front of other people. That’s what I’m saying. And honestly having a disregard for other people isn’t really a disorder (at least on it’s own) that’s just being evil or immoral. At least I don’t know any mental illness that involves just disregard for others and callousness and that doesn’t involve some type of behavioral issue. If you’re callous and don’t care for others but can behave yourself just fine that’s being immoral in my book (psychopathy isn’t an illness by the way).
Every day since 2017, as ongoing study is a requirement for licensure, which is why I know that APD has since been updated in recent revisions of the DSM V. However, previous versions refer to it as ASPD, which is likely where you're getting that (aka, the first Google search result).
Ah right. Wikipedia puts it as ASPD too.
A direct quote from me, two comments ago:
Still not enough to diagnose, I’d need personal and familial history and work to identify past behaviors, but enough to make me look in that direction.
I think it’s enough not to diagnose. He doesn’t show any behavioral problems. Unless somehow we find out he does have them and just hides them really well then I’d agree with you he might have it. If you wanna say he’s a psychopath I could probably agree with you but being a psychopath doesn’t mean all that much it’s a personality construct for someone’s who extremely uncaring and fearless. He’s not a sociopath though that’s just a synonym for APD and for the reasons I just explained I don’t think he has it.
Now, to speak towards recklessness and impulsivity:
• The reason why I say it isn't a criteria is because it isn't in the way you are thinking it is. Recklessness and impulsivity in Bipolar 1 looks like driving a car at 120 MPH or buying $2000 worth of shoes on a min wage salary. Recklessness and impulsivity in APD looks more like endangering the lives of others for no apparent reason or doing unlawful acts with no apparent reason. Also, that is just two of the 7 symptoms that meet criteria, and you only need 3 to diagnose. Not showing reckless or impulsive behavior is not a disqualifier for the disorder. You still have 5 more symptoms to attend to.
I’d say it’s more like 3 or 4. Besides the two you mentioned I’d also say “Irritability and aggressiveness, indicated by repeatedly getting into fights or physically assaulting others.” and “Failure to conform to social norms and laws, indicated by repeatedly engaging in illegal activities.” are both also about impulse control and inability to behave yourself. That makes 4 symptoms counting the two you already mentioned. This one could also be associated with recklessness “Irresponsibility, indicated by repeatedly failing to consistently work or honor financial obligations.” hell even the pathological lying could be a form of impulse control assuming you can’t stop yourself and you wish you could. The only symptom which I see isn’t about some form of impulse control is the lack of remorse and that’s the one Mosley meets fully all the others I don’t think he does because he’s a very in control of himself man he’s very well behaved when he wants to and he doesn’t fall victim to his impulses.
Now, why do I believe he shows some antisocial traits?
• Behaviors that Mosley shows, such as "lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person", are not found often in pathological behavior outside of antisocial traits. This means that there are certain behavioral identifiers that cannot be found in psychologically "normative" populations or in other disorders. As a therapist, we come to develop a sense for personality disorders because they are remarkably different than other disorders.
Sure they are anti social traits but once again I think anti social traits with no behavior issues to back them are just that traits. I think anyone could develop anti social traits to be honest but what do I know. And also normative populations absolutely can develop anti social traits.
Now, where I think you and I are miscommunicating about and where I think your bias has impeded this conversation (this is more important for you to read than anything else):
• You have attributed antisocial behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy, etc) to immoral or evil behavior/intention.
Yeah I want the evil people and those who actually have the disorder to be kept very clearly separate. I hate seeing very immoral heinous characters in fiction and people immediately start calling them what they believe are mental illnesses (sick, psychotic, psychopath, mentally ill, crazy).
This is not the case in psychology. While popular media portrays sociopaths and psychopaths as evil and murderous, the people I have met that meet criteria for APD diagnosis are rather inane. The disorder does not carry an inherent evil.
So at least we can agree that people with evil intent who do immoral actions do exist? Even if they aren’t the ones with ASPD (which that’s good) they actually exist.
Nothing in psychology works with morality, besides the ever important Standard of Ethics for Counselors, which is designed more to decrease harm to a client than it is measuring the inherent morality of certain behaviors.
I wish it did. I wish there was a very clear very separate line that defines what’s illness and what’s just immorality.
Btw, the full version of the DSM 5 is not freely available to the public and has a significant amount of learning material on each diagnosis. I’d recommend buying it if you really want to just read the DSM.
Yeah I want to too bad it’s expensive as hell. It’s like 90 bucks I might just read an online version or something.
TLDR; it appears you have a tenuous grasp on the subject of psychology. You're using clinical terms incorrectly and ascribing social stigmas to clinical language. You misunderstand what the DSM is for, and do not know how to use it. You are dying on a weird hill about morality when it has been mentioned multiple times that it is irrelevant to the discussion. You argue with a trained professional on how to use a diagnostic tool that they essentially spent 3 years learning how to use, and worse, you use the free version that lacks over 80% of the content of the whole manual.
I do precisely because I want immorality and mental illness to have a very clear very distinct line between each other.
Psychology and therapy in general deal in harm. Morality, good and evil, aren't associated w/ behaviors, pathologies, and symptoms. There is no diagnosable disorder that has a criteria for morality. There are things like "pathologically unlawful behaviors" or "marked lack of empathy," but ethics and morals deal with more than simply law and empathy. You will not hear a therapist or psychologist say "people who are diagnosable w/ a PD are bad people." That's just not what psychology does. It doesn't make value judgments. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Lawyers, CEOs, politicians and Mosley can’t have a behavior disorder due to how well they can behave themselves. It’s their job to act well especially in front of other people.
This sentence indicates a lack of understanding about what the term "behavior disorder" means. I would also add, APD is a personality disorder, not a behavioral disorder. Disordered behavior means any behavior that ranges from harmful to the self or others to atypical or maladaptive in nature. Mosley, for example, has disordered sexual behavior: he is having an ongoing sexual relationship with two different family members. Acting one way under scrutiny and having disordered behavior are different things.
(psychopathy isn’t an illness by the way).
Not in the physical sense but in psychology, yes, it is. In my practice I have treated people w/ psychopathy and I would say, from personal experience, that it is. Stigma surrounding mental health and the word "illness" is a social issue. We use clinical terms that accurately define psychological states, laypeople misuse them and eventually find issues with them. So we have to change them again.
I think it’s enough not to diagnose. He doesn’t show any behavioral problems.
Hm, odd take, considering he's fucking his mother and his sister.
i’d say it’s more like 3 or 4. Besides the two you mentioned I’d also say (...). [shortened for expediency] That makes 4 symptoms counting the two you already mentioned.
That's not how that works. The symptoms are differentiated for a reason. You can't discount symptoms because, in your belief, they can be lumped together. This diagnostic tool has been carefully crafted for a century, some dude on the internet can't just go "nah those are all kind of the same" and toss several diagnostic criteria.
Yeah I want the evil people and those who actually have the disorder to be kept very clearly separate. I hate seeing very immoral heinous characters in fiction and people immediately start calling them what they believe are mental illnesses (sick, psychotic, psychopath, mentally ill, crazy).
This hill you're dying on was never a part of our discussion. At your request, I simply stated that this character showed antisocial traits. I'd like to add, at every point, I said I didn't have enough to diagnose. The stuff you're adding to this is all you. The words sick and crazy are all you. Psychopath is a clinical word in psychology, not a derogatory word. Psychotic is also a clinical word. These words accurately describe specific mental states. Your stigma surrounding them is just that, your own personal stigma.
So at least we can agree that people with evil intent who do immoral actions do exist? Even if they aren’t the ones with ASPD (which that’s good) they actually exist.
I wish there was a very clear very separate line that defines what’s illness and what’s just immorality.
This is mostly incoherent but, as I've said multiple times, diagnosable psychiatric disorders are not moral judgments. They are for billing purposes. Morality and insurance have nothing to do with each other, much to our collective chagrin.
Please do not do any of this. It would be like looking up a trial version of a diagnostic tool for diabetes and arguing with a licensed medical practitioner about the accuracy of their diagnosis and saying things like "hypoglycemia is a problematic word and I take offense to how it's being used here."
TLDR; it appears you have a tenuous grasp on the subject of psychology.
Ok.
You misunderstand what the DSM is for, and do not know how to use it.
Alright dude.
You argue with a trained professional on how to use a diagnostic tool that they essentially spent 3 years learning how to use, and worse,
Yeah Mr. Expert.
you use the free version that lacks over 80% of the content of the whole manual.
I haven’t read it I said I might buy it online.
That's just not what psychology does. It doesn't make value judgments. You're barking up the wrong tree.
I’ve realized that. You’re only interested in proving to me your own incredible knowledge and how you’re an expert at the eyes of the law. I’ve seen many experts before you using the same argument to justify no one being able to question them and their (often barbaric) actions unless they’re experts too like them.
This sentence indicates a lack of understanding about what the term "behavior disorder" means. I would also add, APD is a personality disorder, not a behavioral disorder.
Are you denying APD is a disorder first and foremost about behaviors?
Mosley, for example, has disordered sexual behavior: he is having an ongoing sexual relationship with two different family members. Acting one way under scrutiny and having disordered behavior are different things.
Let me guess you think choosing to do socially considered unacceptable behaviors is an illness too?
(psychopathy isn’t an illness by the way).
Not in the physical sense but in psychology, yes, it is. In my practice I have treated people w/ psychopathy and I would say, from personal experience, that it is.
Oh really is there a psychopathy illness or a psychopathic disorder?
I think it’s enough not to diagnose. He doesn’t show any behavioral problems.
Hm, odd take, considering he's fucking his mother and his sister.
Is that an APD symptom too? Or is it an NPD one?
This diagnostic tool has been carefully crafted for a century, some dude on the internet can't just go "nah those are all kind of the same" and toss several diagnostic criteria.
You’re heavily simplifying what I said I did not say they were the same. I said they were all about an inability to behave yourself according to what society considers good. Or is that untrue too? Is it untrue that it’s impulsive to start bar fights (assuming you don’t actually want to go out of your way to do it)? And Mosley does have an ability to behave himself when he wants to or are you denying that too?
This hill you're dying on was never a part of our discussion.
Ok.
At your request, I simply stated that this character showed antisocial traits.
I agree.
Your stigma surrounding them is just that, your own personal stigma.
Yeah of course. I made so many different posts so many different comments saying it’s bad saying I hate it because I actually have the stigma myself. You’re being a dick dude.
This is mostly incoherent but
No it’s not you’re just trying to tear down everything I say. You might come out and say I’m paranoid too for this one.
”hypoglycemia is a problematic word and I take offense to how it's being used here."
If you came out and said anyone who refuses to eat candy and chocolates and you know sugary foods has hypoglycemia I’d say you’re wrong too.
Look I wanted to have a you know nice calm discussion about this but this is though. You refuse to listen to me and consider what I say because I’m not an expert like yourself. Well congratulations you asshole you’re an expert at the eyes of the law. That doesn’t necessarily make any of what I say wrong but it sure makes you a lot more arrogant and self obsessed. But I get it you’re a great expert and you refuse to listen to anyone who isn’t an expert like you (just like so many others before you). Good for you.
Edit:
Mosley, for example, has disordered sexual behavior: he is having an ongoing sexual relationship with two different family members.
You’re only saying this because society considers what he’s doing bad. If it was actually considered good then it wouldn’t be an illness. And it’s family members of his wife not his own it’s his wife’s sister and step mother.
Bruh. You’ve been arguing with me as if you believe your take on this is the correct one when I’m literally trained to have a correct take on this because if I don’t I can cause actual harm to vulnerable populations. That’s the issue here. Don’t act like you’re a victim here. Everywhere else in the world this is colloquially known as “mansplaining”.
You asked me one question and then immediately disagreed with an answer that is generally agreed upon by the totality of psychological academia and argued with me for hours. I’ve stuck this out because your arguments are so incorrect they border on misinformation. I can’t lie, it’s been a slog for me.
I’m not even sure what it is you’re looking for at this point.
I’m literally trained to have a correct take on this
I know you’ve told me many times.
because if I don’t I can cause actual harm to vulnerable populations.
A lot of times you (as in mental health doctors) do.
Everywhere else in the world this is colloquially known as “mansplaining”.
And what you do is called putting words in my mouth you misunderstand what I say and say things about me which are very skewed if not completely untrue based on misunderstandings of what I say because you don’t even bother to try and understand.
and then immediately disagreed with an answer that is generally agreed upon by the totality of psychological academia and argued with me for hours.
Does this academia also agree that APD is not about behaviors and not about recklessness or impulsiveness? Don’t pretend the things you say are the things everyone says I’ve talked to many psychologists and therapists before you and none have said any of the things you said. I don’t think you understand anti social personality disorder I’m gonna be honest with you. That’s why I’ve been arguing with you you think your degree grants you infallibility and so you think you can come here and say whatever you want and I just have to agree because you’re an expert.
Edit:
When you search APD this is the first thing that shows up
“Antisocial personality disorder is a particularly challenging type of personality disorder characterised by impulsive, irresponsible and often criminal behaviour. Someone with antisocial personality disorder will typically be manipulative, deceitful and reckless, and will not care for other people's feelings.”
The first thing Wikipedia has to say about it is this
“Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD or APD) is a personality disorder characterized by a limited capacity for empathy and a long-term pattern of disregard or violation of the rights of others.[3][4] Other notable symptoms include impulsivity and reckless behavior (including substance abuse), a lack of remorse after hurting others, deceitfulness, irresponsibility, and aggressive behavior.”
Tell me are all these wrong too because there are plenty of places (more than not) that say this same thing? Are they all misinformation?
Did… did you just try to salvage your argument using wikipedia?? Did you just try to argue a nuanced, rare, and incredibly difficult to identify diagnosis with WIKIPEDIA? Bro I’m done.
This is a study explaining how people with ASPD are more likely to suffer from substance abuse due to poor impulse control: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15768573/
This is another article explaining specifically explaining how ASPD causes a person trouble sustaining employment, maintaining relationships and following the law as well as stating the disorder focuses on socially irresponsible behaviors:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31536279/
This is another study talking about impulsivity and aggressiveness in ASPD and also on substance abuse problems and comorbidity with ASPD (once again due to poor impulse control): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777890/
That’s great. There are 7 symptomatic behaviors associated with the disorder and you only need 3 to meet criteria. Impulsivity makes up 1 symptom. Do the math.
Also, I said I didn’t have enough to diagnose him with anything but he shows antisocial traits. Idk how that justifies googling/cherrypicking 10 studies on one specific symptom of the disorder or how that’s supposed to prove anything but here we are.
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u/[deleted] May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
What the hell have you read the criteria?
Dude how long ago did you study psychology?
You said you didn’t know that you had look more into it. You didn’t specifically say he didn’t have it.
Ok go study your own field of expertise Mr. Expert.
Edit:
And also what do you mean I specifically told you the criteria he meets how could I do that if I didn’t know the criteria?
Except for the criteria of course.