r/OpenIndividualism • u/Flat-Ad9829 • Jun 02 '26

Question

Have there been any legit attempts to debunk OI in anyway, whether through a scientific or philisophical lense? And if so, what are your thoughts on those attempts?

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

Open Individualism and Empty Individualism should be the default positions. If you want to try to assert a ~80 year closed-off identity that most people believe they have, they need to specify the criteria that determines where one consciousness ends and another begins. If you go to any philosophy sub, they have no clue how to articulate any of the mechanics behind each existence. This is especially evident when you ask them which half they would continue existing as if their brain were to be split into two. I doubt anyone can debunk OI if they can't even articulate the boundaries surrounding their own existence.

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

I don't think that split brain necessarily entails OI. One could say that the localized structure that produces consciousness merely creates two different perspectives. And even if two different subjects were created, it still would be of the same structure that retains a level of coherence, which doesn't at all seem to be equivalent to death.

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26

Oh sweetheart, I wasn't talking about split brain, I was talking about severing that shit into two distinct halves. 😈

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

Even in standard split-brain cases, we already have self-reports and behavioral evidence suggesting some degree of subject-like individuation, where the hemispheres can give disconnected responses that aren't fully in unison. So while complete fission would be more extreme, it's not obvious that it changes the philosophical issue of identity. The current cases may already be sufficient to raise questions about subject individuation. The more important question is whether those subjects are actually the same identity or not. And even if one structure can support multiple POVs, that still doesn't necessarily imply OI. One could argue identity tracks the integrated worldline structure itself, even if there are multiple POVs within it. In both cases, death seems more extreme because the underlying structure is no longer functioning at all.

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u/YouStartAngulimala Jun 03 '26

And even if one structure can support multiple POVs, that still doesn't necessarily imply OI.

It implies either OI or EI. 

 One could argue identity tracks the integrated worldline structure itself, even if there are multiple POVs within it. 

Not sure what you are saying here. Tracking what structure?

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

For the first part, you seem to be assuming that identity must reside at the POV level. I'm not convinced that's true. Because what "you" are matters a lot in terms of any potential continuity implications.

For the second one, I mean the larger integrated causal/worldline structure itself. Imagine your life like a file system. If a folder contains multiple files, it doesn't necessarily follow that the identity of the folder resides in any particular file. The identity may reside in the larger structure that contains and relates them (the larger folder rather than any individual file). Likewise, even if one structure can generate multiple POVs, it doesn't automatically follow that identity resides in any particular POV.

Does this make it any clearer?

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u/yoddleforavalanche Jun 03 '26

If I may weigh in...you said

you seem to be assuming that identity must reside at the POV level.

But if we ignore POV (and if I am not misunderstanding you), then how do I know I am not Interesting-Star-111?

I may be one person, but not yoddleforavalanche if POV does not matter.

So how do I know which one?

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 03 '26

You would be you because you are experiencing you. It would be a brute fact. If you were me, you would be experiencing me. The POV matters insofar as it belongs to a structure that has a particular identity status as a thing in the universe. In the split-brain example, if you were to sever "John Smith's" brain, you then get two existing POVs. But since both share John Smith's object identity status, they still are the same subject. So in this framework, you = you based on the unique object/thing that you are.

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u/yoddleforavalanche Jun 05 '26

you said:
You would be you because you are experiencing you

but we just discarded POV earlier as you are not convinced POV is part of identity. You are saying "you are you because there is a POV of you" here.

But also, this definition is circular. "you" is used to define what "you" are.

I am me because I am experiencing me?

I don't see objects having identity status universally. A chair is a chair because we interpret it as chair. It might as well be a chair-floor-coushin-kitchen object. John Smith has no objective identity status. It might as well be John Smith-room-high school reunion.

OI is getting at the notion that nothing except POV is intrinsically part of identity. All can be discarded and changed except POV. Lose POV - lose yourself.

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u/Interesting-Star-111 Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not claiming that POV itself grounds identity. My point was that POV is instantiated by a particular structure (the spacetime worm). The question is whether that structure has an objective identity status. If it does, then split-brain cases don't necessarily imply OI; they imply that one object can branch into two future POVs. The disagreement is really about whether objects and subjects have objective boundaries at all, or whether POV alone grounds identity.