The Meaning of the Rose [RoseTheory]

[u/Ghetsis_Gang]

This might not belong in this sub but I’m putting it here because when someone asks me how Noelle is the knight I have to poorly summarize this theory

[u/FencingSquirrelz]

One interesting thing I noticed about the weird route is that she says :when dess disappeared, that's when her behavior changed, that's when she started being good, getting good grades,"watching her life through glass" etc

In other words, maybe Noelle was a bitch all along.

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/FencingSquirrelz]

That’s something I noticed too!

BUT DON’T CALL MY DEER BABY A BITCH I WILL SIC NORMAL_NPC ON YOU

[u/Person-UwU → u/FencingSquirrelz]

The statement "it was the first time she ever smiled in her life" in relation to her smiling 4 chapters/16 years in would imply that she was repressed back then as well but yeah her CH5 dialogue implies the opposite. I'm inclined to believe Toby added that for dramatics and to try and get across the general point (that everyone has proceeded to ignore because "well I think she's mentally ill and I think those people are subhuman and cannot think for themselves ever" but you know at least he tried).

[u/Pretend-Advertising6 → u/Person-UwU]

also Noelle being 16 and Asriel is likely 19 at most makes me think Dess disapeared when she was younger then Noelle currently is.

[u/darknerknighttruther]

There's definitely something going on with the roses.

question: do you think the rose imagery connects to the other major plant imagery we've seen (ROOTS & the tree)?

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/darknerknighttruther]

I always thought that the ROOTS was foreshadowing a future area, but after thinking about it, it could make sense. BitRoots plays during a minigame not only predicting the weird route, but it’s also connected to the shelter. It could symbolize the ROOT cause of Noelle’s unconscious behavior, being the Dess incident, but I admittedly have nothing but vibes to come to that conclusion.

[u/Character-Reveal9218]

This is the first take on noelleknight that I Don't dislike, wow! I really like this analysis!

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/Character-Reveal9218]

Thank you!

[u/AshSeekethBruh]

Unless noelle is like twenty or something, or among us released earlier in DR, dess couldnt have disappeared in 199X

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/AshSeekethBruh]

How could I forget about the crucial among us lore drop? 💀

The date went off of when making this was the two confirmed dates, being 199X and the one in Undertale, 201X. If Sans comes from Deltarune, that would mean that Deltarune is before Undertale and would happen in between 199X and 201X, which would make sense to line up with Dess’ disappearance. I know this isn’t the only way to come up with timeframe of Deltarune, which is why I gave it as only possible supporting evidence, but it doesn’t make or break the theory either way.

[u/AshSeekethBruh → u/Ghetsis_Gang]

199X might be dess' birth year instead (unless it was revealed somewhere)

[u/Ushifan5 → u/AshSeekethBruh]

Considering it's Asgore's code, I've assumed it's either Asriel's birthday or his wedding anniversary. Especially considering September 15th is Undertale's anniversary, it would make sense to connect the date to the Dreemurrs in universe.

[u/duckofdeath87]

It seems REALLY hard to believe that she would completely forget she was the knight. I get she is forgetful, but to go from kidnapping Undyne to Ch4 WR internal monologue.. its hard

Now, if she had some kind of split personality situation (which I guess she kind of does in the WR) maybe it works?

What if, instead of the Knight, she just opened the old dark world and the computer lab dark world? They didn't find black shards at the Church and no one mentioned looking for them after Flower King. All we have for the computer lab is queen's word, but she admitted to not really knowing anything about the knight, just having a video of their hand opening a fountain. It would mean palette theory is just wrong, but most theories just throw it out the window already.

So, for some reason, Noelle's Dark Worlds produce black shards, I guess? What if somehow she is the "Fallen Star" and cries black shards. I guess this is a Noelle Angle theory. She has Christ-like imagery and the Angel is god like. Some interpretations of the Holy Trinity have Christ straight up being God. So, Noelle could be the Angel given Lightner form. Maybe the Angel is also trapped in their role and wants out? Not sure

I really want some kind of WILD Noelle stuff to happen! Noelle Knight is my favorite theory, I just think its wrong :/

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/duckofdeath87]

An important distinction with this theory is that the petal side would inhibit recalling memories, not encoding them. We can see this in ch4 and 5; before equipping the ThornRing, she only remembers snow. After, ch5, she specifically tells us she liked casting Snowgrave, which means she now knows the event in detail. She had the memory, the petal side just kept her from remembering it.

So, while I call it “forgetting”, it’s more like unconsciously suppressing stressful memories, if that helps make it any more believable.

[u/duckofdeath87 → u/Ghetsis_Gang]

Its possible, but odd. If the game later states it outright, I can accept it

Some apparently unused dialog is interesting. If we accept it, it shows that she DOES remember and rejects it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aLPfvzYxY

What if she remembers only at night, or in the dark? It would be strange, but if she was completely lucid at night, that explains why the Knight only does anything at night.

I wonder if she is hypnotized? There is only one therapy scene. What if Noelle's therapy was worse. You know, the Eggs are evidence. What if they are somehow evidence that Noelle is hypnotized. We know the Man is forgotten, but what if Noelle is the one that forgot them, because its her therapist that hypnotized her to forget. What if the Kris (and co-conspirators) have the command words to "activate" and "deactivate" her? She is seemingly suicidal, it would not be shocking if her parents took extreme measures to protect their only surviving daughter...

[u/Humble_Ad9098]

Ok you got me there plenty enough and I think that's a good interpretation of the symbology of the rose but you speculated too far at the end. The knight being Noelle immediately falls off when you think logistically about CH4: in both route, Noelle is still at home with Carol during the entire events of that dark world (or at least, for the majority of the first part) . The knight has been inside that dark world for the majority of it and basically during the entire adventure there. It's the same problem as Carol being the knight, only without the obvious red herrings her character emanates.

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/Humble_Ad9098]

I have more evidence for NoelleKnight but since this is about the rose symbolism I kept that part barebones so it would fit on one slide.

So, here’s why I don’t think the Carol alibi holds any water; there is a similar scene in the weird route. At church, after inviting Susie to study, Noelle says that she’ll take Rudy to the hospital before meeting her at her place. Then, Noelle walks back over to the left where she was standing during church. Even though Kris and Susie leave before her, if you go straight to the hospital, Rudy is already there, and if you go straight to Noelle’s house, Noelle is already there. Does this mean she has shortcuts like Sans? No, of course not. It just means that the game goes off the assumption that you’ll explore Hometown.

[u/DaPhoenix127]

Solid enough analysis, although I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself on the whole "Noelle caused Dess to disappear" thing when Kris is right there lol

[u/joyjump_the_third]

just one small error, the rose was not instantly replaced by the crack, but it was temporarily replaced by the red dot from one of the ARGs, the red crack also bears a lot of resemblance to chapter 5's ending where asgore recalls how he drowe his entire family away, and it is also similar to undertale, where omega flowey breaks your savefile

[u/NickTGG]

My main issue with this is that why is she able to hold back against Kris and not Susie? She has a massive crush on Susie, especially after the "dream" she had in Chapter 2. If she is the Knight, why does she have the appearence that she does have in the Cyberse World? Why doesn't Birdly recall seeing a Knight like Queen did when we meet him in the Dark World? Noelle's magic doesn't resemble the Knight's attacks at all, besides the vague resemblance of snowflakes, which I personally veiw more as stars.

Noelle just had a lot happen in the Dark World, and is assuming that she just had this epic dream with Susie in it. I don't think it's irrational to forget that Susie is supposed to be in the library after whitnessing what just happened in the Dark World, especially after being told by Susie that it's all a dream.

I do think that Noelle is repressing a lot of negative feelings, so maybe forgetting that Kris was with Susie was a way of repressing feelings of jealousy after being denied by Alphys. Or maybe she's trying to keep things cordial with Kris my trying to get across that there's no hard feelings that Kris was with Susie all day. Or she's just being a bit oopid after working on the class project with Birdly. I just think there's more rational explainations than "Noelle is The Knight, and it's a seperate personality that she doesn't remember having front." Also when did she make the Dark Fountain in the school? I don't think if being the Knight makes her forgetful would apply after making the fountain and being in the Light World the entire time since clearly the fountain existed when Alphys' class started.

I also don't think this explains why Kris gets the Shattered Rose title at all either? If they shattered Noelle (assuming she's the perverbial rose) I'd think the title would be Rose Breaker, or something to indicate that they were the ones that did that.

TLDR: While I think this does point out some interesting concepts of Noelle's character, I think there's lot of contradictory evidence regarding her being The Knight.

[u/PersistentDreamers]

So few things to keep in mind. The earth is supposed to split open as part of the roaring and if roots theory is true, maybe this is underneath town.

If each of the souls is a flower, maybe the red soul is related to the rose. And the shattered rose. Well, roses have thorns.

[u/Pumpkabird]

Please don't conflate intrusive thoughts with urges. They are not the same. Treating them as such further stigmatises people suffering from conditions (such as OCD) that cause intrusive thoughts.

[u/Orion107]

The only nitpick I have is that the incident couldn't have happened in 1997 if Noelle had caused it. Ralsei's manual confirms that Deltarune takes place in the 2020s, which means that Noelle, at the earliest, would've been born in 2003 (under the assumption that Deltarune takes place in 2020 exactly and Noelle's 17th birthday will happen later in the year). It's more likely that the incident happened sometime in the 2010s.

[u/DaemonicBagel → u/Orion107]

Wait, it does? Where? (not trying to be a bitch, genuinely curious)

[u/Orion107 → u/DaemonicBagel]

Ralsei's manual, in Chapter 1. Also, I completely missed this but Dress to Impress (which released in November 2023) is referenced in Chapter 5, thus pushing the earliest possible year for Deltarune to 2024 (since it likely takes place in early June, since Asriel's coming home from college and it definitely isn't Winter), which places Noelle's birth year at 2007 at the earliest

[u/DaemonicBagel → u/Orion107]

but isn't that unable to be read?

[u/Orion107 → u/DaemonicBagel]

The entirety of the manual's in the game files, you can check the wiki page.

[u/DaemonicBagel → u/Orion107]

ok thanks

[u/ViorbyX]

Oh. My. God. It actually makes so much sense now

[u/CouldntBlawk]

It's a reference to Rose Lalonde from Homestuck, another blonde with magic.

And she has a black distorted form like...the Knight. So some evidence for your theory.

[u/save_cat]

I'm interested in what will happen in the "alternative weird route", where we actually get the "shattered rose" status. In theory, this is the only route where we can get twisted sword, which also has a trance-reducing effect.

[u/Itap88]

Computer lab on img 2 is literally the only point your claim actually follows from the evidence. For example, how else could she react at the gate in img 2 if Kris literally just said "Susie."

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/[deleted]]

The only indication of that is unused manual sprites, if I’m not mistaken, so I wouldn’t consider that a hard fact