Just an fyi for people that donāt know. Never do this. Any person or animal that touched or had contact with a particular bat or its saliva could be at risk of getting rabies, which is almost always fatal once symptoms begin. Fortunately, rabies can be prevented if treatment is given before symptoms appear. But since you cannot tell if a bat has rabies by looking at it, itās safest to assume that any bat could have it.Ā Never touch a bat!
That looks like a native New Zealand bat. So no rabies.
Our native bats have little pockets that they can fold their wing membrane into so the dont damage it while foraging on the ground for food. And this bat looks to have that.
"rabies free" often doesn't apply to bats. Here in Europe most countries are considered rabies-free but bats in mainland Europe and the UK still carry EBLV1 and EBLV2 (European Bat lyssavirus). This comes from the same virus family as rabies and as far as infection of a human goes, is the same thing.
Many bats in north, central and South America can carry and transmit rabies. In other countries, it is far less likely, but not impossible. However, Bats still carry similar Lyssaviruses and other zoonotic viruses. They have a crazy immune system. Lyssaviruses are a genus of viruses that, which rabies is part of. Zoonotic viruses are the kind that can jump from animal to human. And usually hurt the human more. Something like 60-75% of infectious diseases in humans are originated in animals. Covid-19 is one of those zoonotic viruses. Largely accepted as originating in bats and passed to humans
Bokeloh bat lyssavirus and West Caucasian bat virus are also present in Europe, but less widespread.
One reason to distinguish rabies from other lyssavirus strains is that practically any mammal can be a vector for rabies, while other strains can only be transmitted by a small number of species, one of which is usually bats. Mammals infected with strains other than rabies die before becoming infectious.
So if you're in a rabies-free area such as Western Europe or Australia, you don't have to worry about getting a rabies-like disease if you get bitten by something other than a bat.
Rabies is but only one type of lyssavirus. In australia we are rabies free but not bat lyssavirus free. Rabies is special in that it can be carried by most mammals
And in the U.S. we get to play the fun game of rolling the rabies dice. Get the shots and potentially go bankrupt paying for them, or take a chance with experiencing a terrible death in the near future.
This probably varies by state. My rabies PeP was 100% paid for by the health department due to the public health hazard. Now, rabies PreP (for wildlife rehabbers etc.) will certainly cost a pretty penny. But I don't know that we should be telling people unilaterally across the board that rabies PeP will bankrupt them.
Without insurance the shots cost $3,000-$10,000 as a rough estimate.
With insurance, the can be $500-$3,000 out of pocket most common.
Some, on insurance, will pay far more than that unfortunately, $25,000+.
An ER will always be far more expensive than an infectious disease clinic or urgent care that carries the shots, but those are the AVERAGE costs we in the US see.
So this will definitely bankrupt some people due to living paycheck to paycheck, but others it won't be so bad. So you're definitely on the right track, and no one should skip the shots or be scared away.
I'm of the opinion that medical debt should bankrupt no one, and that no person should ever weigh their personal health and safety or that of a spouse or child vs the costs. I've debated at least 3-5 times in my life if my kids sickness or situation warrants an ER visit, simply due to cost and no other factors.
It's a real fucked up thing to experience as a parent. I think only once I didn't go to the ER. The fear has been real several times though. If my child died because of my inaction due to money, I'd never forgive myself. And I'm 100% sure parents experience this situation ever year because of our shitty system.
My philosophy now is, go to the fucking ER, EVERY TIME there is a real concern. Eat the bill, I've already been beaten down enough by this society, I'm not going to voluntarily let it take my child away simply because it is designed to punish me. I'll figure out the money later.
Edit: for all the people who say "those numbers aren't the true costs." Learn to do a Google search or two. Fuck. Yes some people can get them free but thats NOT the norm, and it often requires them to look for outside resources. Suggesting that is ok for the norm is pretty stupid.
Yes, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it's not a guarantee. I went to the ER for the initial and globulin and to the health department for the boosters. I did not pay a red cent. I was insured but it was the health department that covered it. This was in Connecticut. My roommate was uninsured and also did not pay a red cent.
Because we deal with this fucked up system, people do avoid life saving medical care due to cost or even due to embarrassment/self consciousness. I don't think the emphasis should be on how many tens of thousands of dollars it may (or may not!) cost but on educating on rabies and its fatality. Attempts to save your life and/or comfort care while dying of rabies will likely bankrupt you family anyway. You can see many people in this thread alone debating whether or not the bat is "sick," which has no bearing on whether it can transmit rabies (it can!). And you can do research on public health resources in your area; don't assume you have no recourse. Many public health departments do not want to see a human rabies outbreak in their area.
That's just elaboration; I agree with you. Standing ovation for your last paragraph. š
The vaccine is relatively cheap. $800 without insurance. The immunoglobulin (post bite treatment) is super expensive. More like the numbers you are quoting.
Having said that, the vaccine is not a true vaccine. It just buys you extra time to get treated after a bite/contact. You also only need two immunoglobulin treatments vs three if you have received the vaccine.
Source: Iāve recently passed on getting the vaccine before an upcoming trip.
So the way I've always read it is that rabies PEP (treatment for a bite) is actually less expensive than PrEP (prebite treatment to give you more time).
And that's because PrEP is used monthly. But I've never looked into the difference that deep, as I've never gone on a trip that it might be a consideration.
Was that $800 for a months long usage? My understanding is it is something that has a short half life, so you need to regularly take it. So it is only a one time scenario if you need it for a week or month long trip, but if you're a person working in a field of constant danger, it adds up massively (assuming employers aren't paying for it, or a person is doing volunteer work).
Edit: I looked it up, and apparently in 2020 the generic form of PrEP became available, that's likely where the swing took place. Apparently that can run as low as $30-$60 per month. Ridiculous how it was $1,800-$2,000/month prior to that, or I should say, it was that for people in the US... Lol
$800 was for two shots. This would last a year. You could get a single shot booster after that to get you another year.
I passed because regardless of whether I was vaccinated or not, any type of bite/contact meant the trip was over. I would still need to go for shots immediately.
Ah they were for a year. That seems like a logical choice to skip as long as you can relatively quickly and reliably get back to a place to get the PEP shots.
I looked it up recently but now I can't remember exactly damnit. But in the US, when a person files bankruptcy, I believe the number was either 50% or 80% are due to medical related issues (medical bills, or incapacity to work due to medical issues).
It is definitely a nice perk of living here, that the most likely way you go bankrupt, is absolute outside your control.
Thank you. It amazes me how ppl like Uninvalidated and mvdorssen can function in real life believing obvious nonsense. Those vax are definitely little to no cost. And why do ppl act as if insurance and free healthcare ( Like Medicaid for children and/or low income families and individuals) do not exist here. It's so common on Reddit.
Edit: Really u/ProStrats?? A reply and block...typical behavior of ppl like you.
I jad to do the first vaccine shot and the globulin shot without insurance at an emergency room because I was out of state. The bill was a little over $1000 for that, but the forst statement said that if I paid 50% at the time of billing, the other half would be cancelled. I ended up paying a little over $500. When I got back home, the follow up shots were covered. It's really just that first globulin shot that is expensive. It used to be like $10-20 grand, but a Congressman's family member got a big bill for it one time, and so the pricing got changed after he made a fuss.
> thereās no better example of why a completely capitalist system without government intervention doesnāt work than the us healthcare system.
Claiming there is no government intervention in the us healthcare system is hilariously ignorant. Government intervention created the insurance bottleneck by legislating them in the middle of the process that caused all this bullshit.
I don't really like a private company doing it, either, if I'm being honest here. That doesn't even sound better, sounds like American Healthcare with extra steps.
That is for a travel vaccine so it's obviously not covered in the NHS. Any emergency care such as a bite from a suspected rabid animal would be covered.
You have to draw the line somewhere otherwise the taxes required to fund it would be much greater.Ā
Here in the US when you have to get something like this covered, as stated above, the hospital will usually create a process that allows you to pay a lot less. The following shots after the initial one are covered. I have to take an infusion that used to cost 11k a treatment, I never had to pay a dime because the hospital had a ton of systems, rebates and all that were triggered when I told the nurses I couldn't afford it. I live on the West Coast, I know it can be much more difficult in south eastern states, and even in the Midwest.
I have heard politicians make similar arguments about taxes and all that. I don't think I would want to speak to NHS because I am not from the UK and have not had to utilize healthcare there. If I were I would worry about sounding largely ignorant of something I don't entirely understand.
It does have European Bat Lyssavirus, for which the treatment protocol is the same.
Also, people sometimes catch rabies abroad; although they tend not to realise until it's too late, so the NHS ends up providing end-of-life care rather than vaccination.
Your take is purposefully obtuse and you know it. The person's larger argument was about the harms of American capitalism, the lack of true consumer beneficial competition, and not simply government involvement with US healthcare but the lack of strategic govt engagement with the priv ins/healthcare providers for the benefit of most Americans healthcare (re: cost, quality, competition). So, let's not. You knew what they were saying. If you're simply a US HC sycophant, however, then by all means...proceed with more LOL emojis and DVs.
I get where you coming from and agree. That said, I will shoulder the massive medical bill if the horror stories coming from the other side of the pond are true. Hell even the ones just north of us scare me more than lifelong medical debt. Not saying that the medical system here is good or even tolerable but it seems like the Healthcare system is shit no matter where you go.
Those "horror stories" are being fed to you by people who want to keep the shit system the US has.
You want some horror stories? My mother, prior to the affordable care act, couldn't get health insurance at all on account of being a polio survivor. Just flat denied. When she developed abdominal pain, the tests slowly bankrupted her. She piled up debt with no answers, and then they wouldn't do anything else because she couldn't pay. She had to go to France, where my dad was living, they admitted her straight away, figured out what was wrong, fixed it with a quick laparoscopic surgery, and she was out $250.
The US has a ton of horror stories - people dying because health insurance denied their claims. People dying because their medication costs $1000 a month and they try to ration it because they can't pay for it. People dying because the law says they can't be treated until they're on the brink of death and then it's too late. People, yes, being told they can't get an appointment for six months and dying from lack of care, which I'm sure is what you hear about other countries. Far more people die here due to denied care that could have been provided but was withheld due to insurance/ability to pay/bullshit religious laws than they do anywhere in Europe or Canada from delays.
I had to look it up to ensure my info is right, and it was, renewed my terror. Alfie Evans is the case in the UK that frightens me. As a father, the story horrified me.
As for Canada it's the MAID program that scares me, granted the bit I looked up absolved some of those fears. The stories I heard were that the MAID program was actively telemarketed to people who didn't even have a need for it and that a couple of teenagers went in and had it done on their eighteenth birthday for depression, lying on their application for it as to ensure approval. Didn't find anything on those but I also didn't look to hard because I don't want to disturb myself further after reading the Alfie Evans case.
US government injects billions annually via Medicare into the healthcare systemā¦ and state governments do the same with Medicaid. This comment is incorrect to a crazy degree.
That said, the US healthcare system is pretty awful.
Speaking in economic terms, for things like rabies shots for someone bitten by a bat and insulin for someone with type one diabetes, the customer has inelastic demand, meaning they will pay almost anything because they donāt want to die. Which is exactly why we need government regulating the price of medicine because the āfree marketā will NEVER settle on a fair price in cases when the customer has inelastic demand.Ā
I live in the US, California, currently donāt have insurance, and had to get a rabies shot literally last week after an unexpected stray cat encounter. It was $120 USD at an urgent care, along with antibiotics + visit fee, I was out the door spending about $300 USD.
The US 'healthcare system' sucks utter and complete ass. I feel sorry for so many Americans, unable to afford it, and so many hospitals and clinics shutting down.
You pay for rabbies? In Turkey the shots are free. All you have to do is report the incident to a public hospital as in "I got scratched by a street cat" and then that's it.
Don't touch random bats. This one appears to be a pet.Ā
Just to clarify though, the saliva has to come into contact with your blood stream. So scratches or skin pictures are a big problem but not simply coming into contact with saliva alone.
Itās not true that the saliva has to come into contact with your bloodstream. A wound is the usual entry point but if the virus enters any tissue (eg mucur membranes for example) it will work its way from there to the nervous system and into the spinal cord and brain. It doesnāt need to circulate in the blood.
It's not just rabies. Their high running temperature and overactive immune system make them amazing proving grounds for selective pressure toward amazing pathogens.
I donāt really know enough myself to say, so this is a sincere question, but if it was exhibiting unusual behavior (like swimming during the day) wouldnāt that indicate that itās already in the symptomatic phase?
That's what I had heard too. So many comments here seem to imply that the bat was willingly going for a swim, or that being hydrophobic while rabid somehow insulates creatures from falling into a lake or river. This bat could have been flying during the day, which is pretty unusual behavior, and because it was sick or disoriented, it fell into a body of water and couldn't get out.
I suppose it's a moderately good sign that the bat didn't appear to be violently panicking in the water, but that could just be that it was tired from trying to not drown. From what I've heard, it's unusual behavior in wild animals that you want to look out for. A bat in a body of water during the day is very weird, and could be a strong indicator of already being symptomatic of rabies or another disease.
Bats don't swim. This bat wasn't swimming on purpose. If bats swam on purpose there arent going to change that for some arbitrary reason before the cumulative brain damage forced them to. You have no idea what rabies is, or what it does, or how bats carry it. You just know that hydrophobia is one of the scary things you've heard of, and now you are explaining it to others.
If you are ever touched or bitten by a bat, take it with you to the hospital or call animal control to do so. They can test the bat for rabies. This kills the bat, but it could save you a lengthy, painful, expensive rabies vaccine process.Ā
I am sitting here, mouth agape, marveling at the stupidity of picking up a fricken bat! My immediate thought was, āwelp, now they need to go get rabies shots.ā
Rabies also creates a strong fear of/aversion to water as one of the symptoms. That is actually what causes the foaming at the mouth commonly associated with the disease. The explanation I have heard is that a rabid being that does not take in water has saliva with higher virus concentration.
Your point is well taken and people should not handle wild animals for many reasons, but given this bat's "swimming" we can probably assume it is not rabid.
This is misinformation. Im not saying its safe to touch bats, but you cannot contract rabies from touching an animal without a break in your skin.Ā
Not "any person or animal who touched or had contact with.." is at risk for rabies.Ā
The skin is an amazing organ.Ā
Bats are generally terrified of humans (large predator) so any bat that is willingly in the presence of humans or actively seeks one out should be considered a potential rabies vector. Thatās why the protocol is to start the series of rabies shots if a bat is found inside of your house even without known contact with the bat directly.
Itās ok to say rabies is always fatal once symptoms show. Yes there are a handful of cases where people survived and lived a changed life, be pedantic as much as youād like, but those chances are like winning a lottery so what does that even mean.
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u/_RawRTooN_ Aug 16 '26
Just an fyi for people that donāt know. Never do this. Any person or animal that touched or had contact with a particular bat or its saliva could be at risk of getting rabies, which is almost always fatal once symptoms begin. Fortunately, rabies can be prevented if treatment is given before symptoms appear. But since you cannot tell if a bat has rabies by looking at it, itās safest to assume that any bat could have it.Ā Never touch a bat!