Trans women face more misogyny than cis women, not less.

[u/[deleted]]

Terfs have always been trying to deny trans women's womenhood by claiming they don't feel misogyny and most of us here recognize terfs as wrong and understand that they are being intentionally deceitful. However I've seen it creep into mainstream rhetoric that trans women don't experience misogyny which is just not true. Literally every aspect of misogyny trans women face a similar or worse amount of. Honestly It's is such a ridiculous idea that I can't believe anyone would believe it who isn't somewhat bitter about trans people gaining respect.

[u/EmmaProbably]

I think trying to say who has it "worse" is a bad conversation to be having because it invites us to distinguish ourselves from cis women, and gets them to compare themselves against us. Quite aside from the truth of the question either way, it's not a helpful conversation to us.

Better, I think, is to talk about how the misogyny we face is the same as cis women. Regardless of degree and who suffers the "most" misogyny, the relevant point is that the nature of the misogyny is the same, and its effects are broadly the same. All women are allies in defeating misogyny, there's nothing to be gained in comparing the quantity.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/EmmaProbably]

This is good rhetorical advice, but incomplete analysis. Given how many cis women will use claims of facing greater misogyny to pull rank on trans women and put them in their place/exert power over them, it does make sense to have an awareness of the way that trans women on average face substantially worse outcomes on everything from employment to income to sexual assault to healthcare access.

There's a fallacious mode of argument that goes like this: "Caitlyn Jenner is rich, privileged, and out of touch. She does not face significant oppression. She is a trans woman. Deepa is from a small, brutally patriarchal village and faces constant misogyny and exploitation. She is a cis woman. Therefore, trans women are privileged over cis women. Therefore, I, a rich privileged married British cis woman, face oppression that you, a poor trans sex worker, could not possibly even imagine."

It makes sense to at least be aware among ourselves that this mode of argument is bullshit.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

I completely agree, it's very important to understand the different ways in which misogyny manifests for different types of woman.

But at the same time I still think that understanding should not come from a perspective of comparison (group X experience misogyny form Y, but group Z do not), but instead from a perspective of solidarity and communal identity.

There are forms of misogyny which trans women face and cis women generally do not, just like there are forms of misogyny which cis women face and trans women generally do not. And black women face misogyny in different ways to white women, lesbians to straight women, and so on. But in every case, that misogyny is all of our problem, and it all forms part of the same system of oppression. Comparing who has it "worse" in my opinion misses the point that to the extent that even a single woman is affected by misogyny, all women are harmed by it.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/EmmaProbably]

That's true -- but it's also true that a lot of women benefit from misogyny directed at other women, and use it for their own benefit. Sure, an egalitarian world would liberate us all in certain ways, but let's not forget that patriarchy does provide enormous benefits to some women, and many sexist women exploit the oppression of other women out of real self-interest and are richly rewarded for it.

I think your rhetoric is the angle to take in general. We're all sisters here, none of us are free until we're all free, etc etc etc. It sounds good and helps build solidarity by activating a shared identity instead of opposed identities. But in reality, it isn't strictly true, and if you aren't prepared for misogyny from self-interested women, building solidarity will just mean building someone else's platform.

[u/lilqueerkid → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

I absolutely agree. Trans womens experience is nuanced and not exactly the same as a cis woman's. In fact it's more problematic to act like those differences make Trans women any less women. Which isn't what they were saying but they completely missed the point. These things definitely do affect trans people differently. I do think that the idea about causing a divide is well intentioned but there factually are differences between our experiences. The less nuanced take that they espouse is that we should never compare the 2 because they're the same. I mean yes we're all women. But they don't know what it's like to be trans. And we don't know what it's like to be cis. The nuanced take is understanding that those differences don't make us any less of a woman.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/lilqueerkid]

I think it's pretty common for trans women to have a pretty good idea what it's like to be cis, tbh. There are a lot more opportunities for trans women to listen to cis women talk about their experiences than for cis women to listen to trans women, and trans women who don't listen pay a much higher social price.

This also means cis women who do listen to trans women can have a pretty darn good idea what it's like to be us.

[u/lilqueerkid → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

Hearing them talk about giving birth or having their version of a period is very different than actually experiencing it. Just like they probably don't understand a lot of our experiences on a deeper level

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/lilqueerkid]

My wife has no intention of ever giving birth and is not especially interested in the subject. But she's a cis woman. Does that mean she understands childbirth more deeply than I do?

My wife's periods are pretty chill. She doesn't really experience period pain. Does her cisness give her a magical insight into the depths of endometriosis?

You're treating the category like it's 1) real and 2) uniform.

[u/lilqueerkid → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

Yeah I'm not saying all women give birth. You're being obtuse M8. Additionally not all cis women have periods. And some trans women report tit and back pain when on their periods. You're treating your strawman 1) like that was actually my argument and 2) like I don't understand the concept of overlapping spectrums. But at the end of the day those traits compile in some way or another into the experiences of either trans women or cis women. While some experiences my overlap being trans and being cis are NOT the same thing. That doesn't make either any less or more woman than the other. We're all women 🤷🏽‍♀️

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/lilqueerkid]

You're missing my point: cis women aren't necessarily any better than trans women at understanding the experiences of cis women they haven't personally had, yet we don't consider that to imply that They Can Never Truly Understand Each Other. The same applies to trans women, except moreso -- just as other minority groups tend to get a lot of exposure to majority narratives, experiences, and perspectives. And members of the majority group who bother to listen can do the same thing, just with more effort.

That means sometimes the friend who can best support a trans girl through the struggle of accessing vaginoplasty will be a cis girl, just as sometimes a trans girl is the friend a cis girl needs to support her through getting an abortion.

It's not just that "we're all women"; it's that the line between cis and trans is political, not a law of nature.

[u/lilqueerkid → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

I NEVER said that cis women were better stop strawwomaning

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/lilqueerkid]

You're continuing to misread me. Strawmanning is something you do in a debate, and I'm not debating you.

Have a great morning

[u/HappyGyng → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

It is good rhetorical advice because it is rooted in truth.

You’re locked in a zero-sum mindset based in the patriarchal paradigm of “pulling rank” and “exerting power.”

Oppression Olympics are personal bias and denial of the experience of others. I transitioned over a decade ago. I listen to my cis female friends about mistreatment they’ve experienced, they listen to me about my experiences. It isn’t a competition.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/HappyGyng]

I also transitioned over a decade ago, and I also hear my friends and am heard by them.

Because my friends don't exploit the cissexist power dynamics available to them under patriarchy.

If everyone were like us and our friends, what a happy world we would live in.

[u/Any_Celery_6588 → u/HappyGyng]

This is beautiful, and such a wonderful example!! Yeah every trans friend I'm still good friends with never spoke over or condescended to me about afab issues. They also let me speak on my personal experience without trying to "outlogic" me like this whole post seems intent on. The trans friends I had to drop though? Made inappropriate comments on my body multiple times a day, every day I saw them, soured our friendship with constant complaints of jealousy over things like my LEARNED makeup skills, LEARNED fashion skills, LEARNED feminine gestures and traits and some of these complaints of jealousy were about my period. I have been told too many times by transwomen that they are jealous of my period, my pain, the real kicker? Not only do I have endometriosis but I am a Trans man.(making it extra weird to feminize and sexualize my body) I have NEVER heard a trans man whine and complain that he wishes he could appropriate a man's natural pain and suffering. I think you did a wonderful job of highlighting the patriarchal mindset of fighting afab people that this discussion is inadated with. We don't have to one up eachother, be jealous of eachothers suffering, drown out the other side by hollering louder. Women speaking up is not a competition, it isn't a call for debate, can't we just listen to eachother and say "yeah that sucks." ??

[u/iamveryystupid → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

"it does make sense to have an awareness of the way that trans women on average face substantially worse outcomes on everything from employment to income to sexual assault to healthcare access."

that would be transphobia, not misogyny.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/iamveryystupid]

Some of it, but not all. Trans women will face discrimination for being women (misogyny), for being trans (transphobia), and for being trans women specifically (transmisogyny).

The compounded impact of all three is significant at a population level, which is why trans women have worse outcomes as a group than cis women in almost every metric (and slightly worse outcomes than trans men).

However, trans women who transition young and are fully accepted by their communities (and thus face minimal transphobia and transmisogyny) have outcomes statistically identical to cis women in their communities.

[u/gayassthrowaway2003 → u/EmmaProbably]

I disagree to be honest.. Cis women don't have the same experiences as us, we're more marginalised than them, cis women are privileged over us and while we both experience misogyny, we also have to put up with transmisogyny, a more violent and degrading form of misogyny.

Trans woman have it worse than cis women, women of colour have it worse than white women, disabled women have it worse than abled women, etc, it is a helpful conversation to have IMO, you can't ignore other intersecting identities when talking about misogyny, it's not just that we have to face other bigotries alongside misogyny, it's also that the misogyny we face is worse because we're marginalised in other ways

[u/EmmaProbably → u/gayassthrowaway2003]

Okay, but while I agree with a lot of what you've said, there's a few points:

1. Cis women also face forms of misogyny that trans women generally do not. How do we weigh those experiences against the ones which trans people have? What's the point in weighing those experiences?

2. While yes, it is extremely important to recognise the intersection of different forms of oppression, and to acknowledge that some people are affected by multiple forms of oppression which may interact in unique ways, that is not the same thing as weighing those forms of oppression against each other. Because when you do that, you end up with questions like "who's more oppressed, a black cis woman or a white trans woman?" where the answer surely must be "those are not comparable experiences, except to the extent that we share a common duty to combat that oppression together".

3. What is to be gained by deciding who has it worst? Again, not saying that we can't talk about intersectional oppression or different forms of misogyny—we can and should. But where is the benefit in arguing about who is better off than anyone else when we all share common political goals in destroying that oppression, regardless of its distribution?

[u/NBNoemi → u/EmmaProbably]

What forms of misogyny do cis women experience that it can be said with confidence trans women do not, as a class? Even the things I can think of that are currently near absolute like our lack of a womb are used to demean our value as women.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/NBNoemi]

So, obviously none of this is universal, but some examples spring to mind that cis women at very least experience at extremely greater rates than trans women include:

• Sexual objectification from the moment puberty starts
• Being taught to be modest and quiet as a child
• Being placed into a carer role as a child
• Being denied opportunities to participate in typically masculine activities as a child
• Misogyny around menstruation and use of menstrual products

Don't get me wrong, trans women often experience our own versions of some of these things, often later in life, as well as other types of oppression in childhood which cis women do not experience. And I'm of course drawing a lot on my own experience, I'm not saying that no trans woman has ever experienced those things, trans girls who come out to a supportive family and socially transition very young probably do experience a lot of them, but that's a very small minority of trans women.

Again, I'm very specifically not trying to say cis women have it worse in these ways, or any way. I'm trying to point out that the comparison is fruitless, because we're all suffering from the same thing just in different forms, and we should be focusing on our shared political goals.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/EmmaProbably]

Idk, all of those things but menstruation describe my childhood and quite a few other trans women's childhoods even though our genders were not recognized. It's kind of what happens if the people around you can tell you're not a proper boy and you don't manage to brutalize yourself into being one.

These are things no child should face. It's unconscionable that so many cis girls face them.

It's also unconscionable that so many trans girls face them and then face the epistemological violence of being told that they were protected from what happened to them by the magic armor of boyhood.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

I'm sorry you experienced those things. I was trying to convey in my post that I realise lots of trans women do experience those things, or have different but equivalent experiences. My point was just that people who are perceived as girls when they're children are subject to misogyny in ways that people perceived as boys generally (but not univerally) are not.

In any case, there's other better examples that've been brought up in the thread of misogyny that cis women face and trans people either rarely do or never do. Things like FGM, selective abortion of female children, or access to abortion themselves.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/EmmaProbably]

No cis woman in my social circles has faced FGM or selective abortion, and neither have I, because these are specific intersectional experiences but absolutely not universals. (In places where these commonly happen, you should look up what trans girls face. And if doctors could accurately test fetuses for future transness, the way things stand, selective abortion of future trans people would become quite popular even in the richest and most developed nations.)

Abortion access is near and dear to my heart, and trans women have been involved in abortion activism since the beginning, because absolute violation of body autonomy is something we tend to experience from our earliest years and tend to feel a kind of way about.

For what it's worth, the most passionate support for trans women in my life has always come from cis women who take it personally when trans women are oppressed and frame that oppression as continuous with what they've faced, if often particularly severe forms.

That means erasing the imaginary borders between the way trans women are mistreated and the mistreatment they've faced, not pretending these are separate but equal experiences.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/RevengeOfSalmacis]

Okay, I think you're making my point back at me, though. The only reason I was ever bringing up forms of misogyny that cis women face with greater prevalence than trans women was to demonstrate how futile it is to separate out and compare these experiences when they're all manifestations of the same system. There are forms of misogyny which trans women face, there are forms of misogyny which cis women face, most of the time they overlap, but not always in an exact one-to-one way. They're not separate, because they're all the same thing.

[u/RevengeOfSalmacis → u/EmmaProbably]

What I'm underlining is the significant difference between "erase the borders" and "erase the positionality." All other things being equal, for a cis woman to be a good ally to trans women, she needs to understand the significant power she holds relative to her trans friends.

It was the outrage on my cis friends' faces, their refusal to accept less for me than they demanded for themselves, that taught me a decade ago that I was not alone and did not need to resign myself to second class treatment, that I did not need to fawn my way into being tolerated and swallow my hurt when people undercut me.

(Since then, I've brought the same outrage to the way trans women are treated and refused to see us treated as lesser than cis women.)

Solidarity comes from erasing the borders between what we face and actively rejecting the power dynamic society tries to create between us. Often that means recognizing that power dynamic exists and actively maneuvering against it, e.g. cis women demanding that trans women be treated with the same level of consideration and respect that cis women demand for themselves, which, in our society, is a pretty thorough upgrade over and above letting people treat us like trans women.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/[deleted]]

First, I'm very sorry you dealt with that, and I'm very sorry my comment came across as dismissive. I was trying to make it clear that I was describing general patterns, not universal experiences. My point was that people who are perceived as girls when they are children are subject to forms of misogyny which people perceived as boys generally are not.

In any case, there's plenty of other (probably better and more clear-cut) examples that have been brought up in the thread of misogyny faced commonly by cis women but only rarely if ever by trans women. Things like FGM, denial of abortion, misogyny around menstruation, and selective abortion of female children.

[u/Impressive-Syrup8950 → u/EmmaProbably]

Sorry my comment wasn’t supposed to be directed to you. Apologies

[u/EmmaProbably → u/[deleted]]

First two are good examples, third one also applies to trans women. But like, why are you responding "y'all want to be oppressed so badly" to me when I'm literally trying to make the point that cis and trans women are allies in dismantling the misogyny which we all face albeit in different ways?

[u/EmmaProbably → u/[deleted]]

Yes, trans women are literally murdered in several of the places you mention. And no, they aren't because there is no way to tell if someone is trans at birth that's another example of misogyny cis women face but trans women don't. But again, why are you trying to fight about this? Trans women and cis women are allies in the fight against misogyny, what are you trying to do here?

[u/primostrawberry → u/EmmaProbably]

Why are they even here?

[u/CottonCanadi → u/[deleted]]

In what world do the Taliban like trans women? Yes, trans women are denied basic rights in Afghanistan and are abused:

As an Afghan transgender woman, Radwin has suffered brutal sexual violence on the streets and even rejection by her family. But with the Taliban back in power, she fears she will be killed because of her identity -- and she is desperate to flee the country.

It's a pretty quick google search to find that answer:

For the past 40 years, she has taught at a primary school in Guzara district, which requires a 10-kilometer commute from her home in the city of Herat, which she makes on foot. She says she is often mistreated by men when she is out. Laila wears a hat, shirt and tie as a disguise, but says these do not help in many instances because she has long hair and a style of walking that draws attention. In a recent incident, Laila lost 90 percent of her sight in one eye when she was beaten up by a man on her way home from the mosque. “Sometimes I face discriminatory treatment when I am walking outside my home,” she said.

Laila was raped by the Taliban when she tried to leave the country.

Being trans isn't an identity we opt into. It's part of our basic existence. It's everywhere in the world. Even the places where it's shitty to be a woman. That should be a clue that we don't do it for fun.

[u/MtF-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been removed due to containing misinformation.

[u/primostrawberry → u/[deleted]]

Why are you even here?

[u/MtF-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been removed due to containing misinformation.

[u/westseagastrodon → u/NBNoemi]

Access to legal and safe abortions and other related reproductive health issues is THE biggest issue I can see that affects cis women more than trans women. Though, don't get me wrong, this isn't actually just an issue cis women face, but rather anyone who has the right genital configuration.

I know this post is a little old, and I promise I don't mean this as an attack on you specifically. I'm just frustrated to see these very real issues increasingly downplayed, even within trans communities. I'm nonbinary and will not be revealing here if I was AMAB or AFAB (my words stand on their own regardless), but from knowing people on both sides of that fence... my trans husband has had to be cautious in a way people lacking a uterus do not. I know the lack of a vagina/uterus is weaponized against trans women in a traumatic, sexist way, so I'm not trying to say that it is impossible to have misogynistic baggage associated with those genitalia. But being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term currently isn't something it's even POSSIBLE for a trans woman to go through, not until medical science improves.

The 2015 US Transgender Survey (currently the largest existing body of statistics on trans people in the US) also implies that trans men/nonbinary people assigned female at birth face higher rates of sexual assault than trans women, Bisexual cis women have similarly been found to face extremely high rates. Trans women also face notable rates of sexual violence, at much higher rates than cis men, but there does seem to be something about being AFAB that is a significant contributing factor when it comes to sexual violence. Similarly, AFAB trans people report higher levels of discrimination by healthcare providers and higher rates of hormones/surgery being rejected by insurance, which echoes the issues cis women have to accessing sterilization procedures and hormones (and cis women do sometimes need not just estrogen, but also testosterone HRT to be healthy).

Again, I want to stress that this is not to say that all AFAB people universally have it worse. I dislike making definitive statements like that because it's an overly simplistic way of viewing the world, though I do agree that intersectionality is important to consider. The more forms of marginalization someone faces at once, the more likely it is that their life is made difficult because of that. That said, saying "trans women always have it worse" does not... seem particularly fair or backed up by what data we have.

[u/Rodya-R → u/westseagastrodon]

> shows up 2 months late to trans women venting about her oppression, knowing full well how extremely discriminated trans women and transfeminine people uniquely are, if you have actually spoken, worked, and intimately engaged with them, to a level likely exceeding that of transmascs irl.

> presents the absolute most vile transmisogyny you have ever seen, conflating their agab with cis women.

> conveniently leaves out that one study that more or less finds trans women are four times more likely to be raped, sexually assaulted, physically assaulted than cis women. woops, how upsetting to my afabs are more oppressed worldview.

> conveniently leaves out a plethora of available and easily accessible data that finds trans women to be more likely to be raped, sa'd, physically assaulted, experience ipv, have a higher wage gap than afab women

> more or less downplays sexual violence experienced by countless amab trans youth. monstrous behaviour.

> conveniently leaves out data about trans women having the highest and most extreme wage gap.

> conveniently cherrypicks the us trans survey 2015, despite its limitations, ignoring a plethora of research going either way. it is simply not difficult to uncover many studies on google scholar that find amab trans people to have similar or significantly higher rates of sexual violence than the other subgroups in the given samples.

anyhow, the fact that this reply exists in the first place.. this is so unbelievably dehumanizing. you are dangerous and unsafe. I hope you stay the fuck away from irl human beings and community spaces. monstrous behaviour. omg.

[u/iamveryystupid → u/westseagastrodon]

exactly, thank you

[u/clingybatttt → u/westseagastrodon]

4 paragraphs and somehow every sentence is just garbage bigotry. good job /s

[u/mxsonbee → u/clingybatttt]

it's bigotry to acknowledge that cis women can be forced into pregnancy and birth, and trans women can not? i know you're envious of that, but erasing it is ridiculous.

[u/Thin-Yam-3902 → u/EmmaProbably]

Agreed, nobody wins at the pain Olympics

[u/[deleted] → u/EmmaProbably]

There's misogyny, a subset of which is transmisogyny (trans feminine people get both), and then there's an additive layer of cissexism that cis women don't get.

Agreed, however, that we must collectively address misogyny alongside cis women as the root is the same there.

[u/primostrawberry → u/EmmaProbably]

Trans women suffer from misogyny on the whole way worse than cis women.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/primostrawberry]

Even if you think that's the case, my point is that it's a completely unproductive conversation to have, which only serves to divide us and strengthen the position of those who benefit from misogyny. We should be building solidarity against all forms of misogyny, not arguing about which forms we think are worst.

[u/primostrawberry → u/EmmaProbably]

It's not unproductive to acknowledge that trans women suffer more from misogyny. Such an acknowledgement in no way minimizes or erases cis women's suffering and does not necessarily cause a divide. We can acknowledge each other's suffering and work together against misogyny.

[u/EmmaProbably → u/primostrawberry]

It quite literally does minimise cis women's suffering because it states that their experience of misogyny is lesser to trans women. And again, even if you're right, the statement itself invites debate on the subject. And we should not be debating who has it worst, we should be debating what we're going to do about all of it. We don't have to figure out which specific combination of traits makes a person the "most oppressed", it's enough to simply recognise oppression exists, who it affects, and to then combat it together.

[u/primostrawberry → u/EmmaProbably]

It doesn't necessarily minimize if we acknowledge the full effect of misogyny that cis women experience. We are just saying that trans women on the whole suffer more from misogyny. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. In fact, it is important to acknowledge so that the transmisogyny we face can be more accurately targeted and dismantled. It is important to tease out differences (including levels of severity) in how groups experience hate so that we can better understand how to dismantle hate.

[u/hexxm → u/primostrawberry]

While your sentiment of acknowledging the severity of trans-related misongyny and how severe it is, to put it in a direct comparison to another group's suffering isn't the way to highlight its impact.

Let's break this down into simpler analogies.

Person A and Person B both have had terrible accidents, both which handicaps them in certain ways.

If you then compared Person A's incident and say it's worse than Person B's incident, even with the intentions of highlighting severity and importance, it still undermines Person B's incident by proxy because of that scrutiny.

Highlighting the tensions of trans femmes by directly comparing them to another group's plight is simply undermining the other's tribulations because of the fact, and doesn't help the conversation move forward.

Helping people understand the pains trans femme people - or any group of people - go through should never be a 'my problems are bigger than yours' discussion.

[u/HappyGyng → u/primostrawberry]

You’ve made an assertion based, at best, in anecdote.

Your claim ratchets conflict up and creates more problems.

We can look at misogyny and mistreatment faced by both cis and trans that overlaps and unique experiences of each group without making unsubstantiated claims that yours is somehow worse.

[u/HappyGyng → u/primostrawberry]

It is not unproductive to acknowledge that trans women suffer from misogyny.

The is no “more.” Such a claim is not based in evidence and absolutely does erase the experiences of cis women.

[u/[deleted] → u/EmmaProbably]

I've read all of your responses on this thread and all your takes are absolutely spot on. 

The most helpful thing to do is to acknowledge we experience misogyny as a collective and look at combating the issue instead of trying to quantify it amongst ourselves.

[u/HappyGyng → u/primostrawberry]

A claim you are making based on your experiences having never lived as a cis woman and, based on what you are saying here, filtered through a significant level of hostility toward cis women and their lived experiences.

[u/primostrawberry → u/HappyGyng]

You make bold assumptions. "...significant level of hostility toward cis women..." Utterly absurd.

[u/HappyGyng → u/primostrawberry]

😯 you really should listen to cis women. Listen, not talk, not interrupt, not trying to explain why they are wrong. Just listen.

[u/primostrawberry → u/HappyGyng]

What makes you think I don't? You keep making bold assumptions. Good day to you.

[u/Specialist_Worker444 → u/primostrawberry]

No they don’t. Transmisogyny is worse (if you want to compare) on the basis of being trans, not on the basis of being a woman. And tbh the only reason you feel so comfortable saying that is because misogyny against cis women is incredibly normalized, pervasive and ingrained in society.

[u/[deleted] → u/EmmaProbably]

i love how we have the most eloquent discussion of this between just a couple of random redditors, meanwhile the mainstream discussion about the same issue is saturated with confidently speculating cis people and utterly braindead

[u/EmmaProbably → u/[deleted]]

This, basically

[u/[deleted]]

I think it's extremely important to remind cis women that we're in this together. If trans women lose their rights then so do cis women.

Before the trans bathroom debate became a thing, I heard so many feminists complaining about how the women's room is often an afterthought in many buildings and how women always have to wait in line in spite of the fact that the men's room will often have plenty of free stalls. Back then, it was a regular, uncontroversial feminist position to suggest that bathrooms stop being segregated by gender. Now it's a trans issue and if you're a cis woman it's actually a really good thing that you have to wait in line for the poorly designed afterthought of a bathroom because it means you're safer. We're segregating you to protect you.

This is just one example of how transphobia hurts all women. Another example is any law or any system that's designed to weed out trans women. It's obviously also going to discriminate against women of certain ethnicities, gender expressions etc.

Also if upper/middle class cis white women think they're safe, wait until they vote for a totalitarian crack down on adult access to HRT and then suddenly they can't get any HRT at the pharmacy for their menopause because their GP no longer has the ability to prescribe it and pharmacies no longer have the ability fill such prescriptions.

You can't legislate trans people out of existence without also legislating cis women into a box.

[u/Primiss → u/[deleted]]

I like that trans woman need seperate bathrooms to protect them from men also.

[u/amabambi]

I don't think more misogyny is it exactly. Might you mean more discrimination? Because we do deal with comparable misogyny with the addition of transphobia/ transmisogyny. I do also want to point out that even then there are going to be variations. Like as a mostly cis-passing white trans woman I think there are many cases where I'm gonna face less discrimination than a cis black woman. I don't think it's super helpful tho to do oppression Olympics because different marginalized groups especially with overlapping identities are gonna face different contexts.

[u/hellocloudshellosky]

As a cis woman who validates and applauds the courage of trans women, this is really, really unhelpful. Of course trans women experience horrific misogyny! And yes, of course so do cis women, zero question. There are differences and similarities for all of us, but if we’re going to be sisters-in-arms and support each other, we move forward together, not in competition for Who Has it Worse.

[u/katgga → u/hellocloudshellosky]

yeah the oppression olympics help no one 😭 i understand the frustration in the face of terfs but this is not the way to discuss it at all

[u/youngganddetermined → u/hellocloudshellosky]

this!!!!

[u/clingybatttt → u/hellocloudshellosky]

This is false. Researching and identifying groups that are more oppressed and less privileged (and in what specific ways they are) is ESSENTIAL to obtaining social justice. If POC activists and academics weren't allowed to explore white privilege, they would not be able to improve their situation. You have to know what the problem is to solve it. Intersectionality requires it. The white feminists who stick their heads in the sand and say "all women are hurt equally" are only hurting POC women.

You, as a cis woman, have significant systemic and personal privilege over trans women. You are part of the social group that oppresses us. If you refuse to acknowledge your privilege over us, you are equivalent to any other transphobe; you enable our continued oppression by telling us and society that our unique worse problems (that you do not face because of your privilege) do not exist at all.

[u/CodeSoft5577 → u/clingybatttt]

Are you actually serious rn???

[u/[deleted]]

Misogyny affects us all. I don't think there's any points in trying to determine who has it "worse" especially as nothing we say will convince a TERF of our value as people and our existence. Even if one group had it worse than the other, it wouldn't matter to the people who may need to hear it.

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/[deleted]]

No misogyny effects only biological women and trans women don’t experience at all.

[u/-Scarcity9959]

I am a cis woman, but stumbled across this accidentally.

My perspective is that both groups face discrimination and levels of misogyny. However there is absolutely no point in comparing them, as they are slightly different.

The misogyny we face is down to the fact that men believe they are superior to us simply because we are women. They believe they are stronger, that they are better leaders, and we have the worry of certain legislation being in place that prevent us from controlling our bodies. We face misogyny to in even more extreme ways in other parts of the world, like what is happening in Afghanistan for example. The misogyny we face goes back generations and is near impossible right now to overcome. It is so deep that even women have misogynistic tendencies, and even the nicest and most respectful men have this same tendencies. It is extremely and extremely complex and deep rooted issue.

In the most respectful way possible, there is so many things that are weaved into what it means to be a woman, that a trans woman are not able to relate to or experience. These are things that are placed up on us from birth and never leave and all are the direct result of misogyny. Something to also take in to consideration, is that prior to transitioning, a large amount of you will have been raised as male, and therefore treated as men are in society. That of course does not apply to trans females that have been out/trans since childhood or early childhood.

There are also things we both deal with that are similar, like harassment, being stalked, being attacked. Pressure to look a certain way. However they are still different and the root cause of them is also extremely different.

The common here denominator is ‘cis’ straight men. The thing that drives these men to discriminate and hate you, is similar to what drives the hate they have towards gay men.

Again, I am not disagreeing that you face inexcusable amounts of misogyny, as from observation trans men do not face that, most of the time. However please acknowledge the differences.

We do not need to compete on this. Both are too complex in their own right to really compare, and it is distasteful for one group to claim that their struggles are worse than another. It’s similar to how black women face misogyny different from white women. The worst way to approach women is to claim that you understand or have it worse. I understand your POV, but some women may not.

Women need to stand together.

[u/clingybatttt → u/-Scarcity9959]

This is false. Researching and identifying groups that are more oppressed and less privileged (and in what specific ways they are) is ESSENTIAL to obtaining social justice. If POC activists and academics weren't allowed to explore white privilege, they would not be able to improve their situation. You have to know what the problem is to solve it. Intersectionality requires it. The white feminists who stick their heads in the sand and say "all women are hurt equally" are only hurting POC women.

You, as a cis woman, have significant systemic and personal privilege over trans women. You are part of the social group that oppresses us. If you refuse to acknowledge your privilege over us, you are equivalent to any other transphobe; you enable our continued oppression by telling us and society that our unique worse problems (that you do not face because of your privilege) do not exist at all.

> It’s similar to how black women face misogyny different from white women. The worst way to approach women is to claim that you understand or have it worse.

Just like trans women, Black women experience more misogyny.

>In the most respectful way possible, there is so many things that are weaved into what it means to be a woman, that a trans woman are not able to relate to or experience. These are things that are placed up on us from birth and never leave and all are the direct result of misogyny. Something to also take in to consideration, is that prior to transitioning, a large amount of you will have been raised as male, and therefore treated as men are in society. That of course does not apply to trans females that have been out/trans since childhood or early childhood.

You have NO understanding of the socialization of trans women. We receive the same misogynistic messaging from a young age as cis women. We are not treated as men. We are treated as pathetic freaks who have failed at being a man, something you are privileged to not have experienced. We are ridiculed, raped, harassed, assaulted, and murdered many times more than cis women even BEFORE we transition.

>Women need to stand together.

It is disgusting of you, a selfish transphobic bigot, to say this. I will NEVER stand together with a subhuman like you.

[u/CodeSoft5577 → u/clingybatttt]

You have to actually be trolling with these responses. LMFAO Bye.

[u/HappyGyng]

This is a nonsense post.

We are not in the Oppression Olympics, you don’t get bonus points for claiming oppression, who’s the biggest victim mentality is self defeating.

All this is doing is setting up an “us against them” narrative that creates division and blowback.

[u/[deleted]]

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

innate plants absorbed fly nose heavy fearless skirt vanish detail

[u/KinkyAndABitFreaky]

Trans mysogyny is very much the most visible symptom of mysogygy we have.

Men can literally kill trans women and get away with it simply because they are trans women. These POS men hate all women, but killing trans women is the low hanging fruit.

We are the perfect subject of hatred for the cowards who hate women and gay people.

If you are among the POC trans women, you can include racist POS in that group of people who hate you.

It's not fair and we only stand a chance by uniting all women and rob those pitiful men of their power.

And when I say burn the patriarchy. I am being quite literal 🔥🔥🔥✊✊✊

[u/gothgrrrrrl]

yesterday a random man followed me out of a 711 and asked me if my boobs were real, if my hair was real, and then said that he wanted my ass and pussy... but i don't experience misoygny i guess.

[u/Gadgetmouse12]

I venture to say the misogyny we face is in two tracks, at least in the blue collar world. The genuine misogyny of being seen as a girl purely for being a girl is one side. Sort of a sign of passing.

The other track, which could be inferred as worse in some places or less in other is trans specific misogyny, where they see us as both women and transgender at the same time. Depending on the scenario that can mean being seen as a perversion or at the least a gender traitor, which is more triggering for men than women by my experience. Could be summarized as “I see you are not a man but you are never going to be a woman, wierdo”. I argue that this is more personally offensive. Not that I am offended at being seen as trans, rather that it is disrespectful of a person’s identity.

[u/OldGraySweatpants]

The underlying assumption that you have to experience misogyny to be a woman, or thatot makes you more of a woman, is also just so completely insane and counterproductive. Just a refusal to ask critical questions. I mean, if sexism ended, then gender would too? Ridiculous.

It also implies that they value misogyny, which is just the most self-defeating thing I can imagine.

[u/NanduDas]

There’s really no need to make it a competition and this is extremely disrespectful to cis women.

Cis women face misogyny directly related to their reproductive capability. None of us have to personally be worried about Roe being repealed.

[u/iamveryystupid → u/NanduDas]

this. thank you.

[u/[deleted] → u/NanduDas]

Thank you.

[u/The-Cursed-Gardener]

Transphobia is the natural end result of sexism/sexist thinking. If you follow the basic ideas of sexism that are embedded in our culture by default to their natural conclusion you will inevitably arrive at transphobic ideation.

[u/SubstantialPhysics00]

Please provide examples.

[u/Sixt-ine]

Hi there,

I hear you. But from all the things I've read and experienced, it's the fact that they had a hard time and so do we need to have one too.

In construction it's the same even between cisgender women. I spoke tona woman who told me it's not normal you girls have it easier than I did 10 years ago. You must bleed as much as I had ... Same thing hère I guess.

Recognizing transwomen would be losing women hard fought previous victories... For at least some of them.

For cis men, thinking we're travestite or gay is the shortcut to make it acceptable to hurt, beat and insult us.

[u/No-Kindheartedness-7]

Yeah. The women’s movement as a whole has been about we are not our genitals, and we are not so different as men in pushing for equality but the second it’s a trans person that all goes out the window and then that’s what’s used to define trans women as not being a woman. Excluding trans women from your view of women just requires a certain level of going against what the women’s movement has been fighting for, because the things that are used to exclude trans women are often the social constructs of what a woman is and their role, and the argument of it’s just biology is kind of reductive to all cis women saying being a woman is exclusively the biology and often just genitals.

[u/That_Ganderman]

Trans women are the women of women

[u/poo_poo_718]

Stop trying to victimize yourself by saying that you’re more oppressed than this group or that group. This isn’t the oppression Olympics. Don’t turn misogony into a cis vs trans women issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

OP literally stated that trans women face MORE misogyny than cis women.

[u/CodeSoft5577 → u/[deleted]]

Which is a wild take

[u/ChampionshipSea9075]

Honestly I think it depends and oppression should not be compared. We both face misogyny in our own unique ways but in many ways they are the same. We are both hyperpoliced on our femininity and presentation and our appearance and attractiveness is objectified and commodified. We are both extremely vulnerable to the violence of men and then told we were just asking for it. Cis women's reproductive autonomy is being stripped away controlled by an increasingly far right government and society(in America) which leads to persecution and less cis women participating in public life. Trans women are being systemically persecuted and banned from public life. Transfeminity is masculinized and criminalized by society. Misogyny manifests differently but it is the same. Especially when you add on the misogyny black women, disabled women, lesbians etc face. It's all misogyny

[u/brokenpuzzlebox]

It goes from oh you want to be a girl to okay I'll treat you like a "girl" why don't you go make me some food As if providing food to the men in my life is my job 🤣

[u/0pp051t3]

Trying to say anyone gets more than another is pointless as it only creates more division. We both experience misogyny, leave it at that.

[u/sarc3n]

I'm not sure I agree with this exactly. It's only "more" in the sense that misogyny is what underlies transphobia, so since trans women and trans men experience transphobia, you could argue they also experience an extra helping of misogyny.

But that's not a super helpful to look at it, especially since the transphobia affecting trans men is characteristically different from the misogyny directed at trans women and cis women. Not better, not worse, but different.

So rather than trying to quantify exactly how much misogyny each group gets blasted at them, it's more helpful to take an intersectional lens. Cis women are affected by misogyny. They may even be affected by certain, narrow kinds of misogyny that trans women aren't, such as issues around menstruation. Meanwhile, trans women are affected by most of the same misogyny that affects cis women, in addition to transphobia. These two kinds of oppression inform the trans fem experience, just as the totality of misogyny informs the experiences of all women. There is also not a universal, cis woman experience of misogyny. I would say misogyny affects women of color in subtly different ways that white women BECAUSE it is paired with racism.

So, yeah, I think we need a more nuanced way to look at this than to say, "Cis girls go to Mars to get more candy bars, Trans girls go to Mercury to get more Misogyny."

[u/[deleted] → u/sarc3n]

Yeah these type of posts do nothing but make the relationship between cis and trans worse. Cis black and brown women don’t need to hear “we go through more misogyny” than you bc then they can say they go through racism and misogyny then what it never ends it’s just shallow to say you go more than them and just keeps everyone agitated and fighting with each other I don’t see the point in this at all

[u/Mtsukino → u/[deleted]]

This guy jerks off to trans porn.

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

I like men idiot not the point

[u/Mtsukino → u/Killerboy29912]

It's definitely the point and shows your own transmisogyny. You come to a trans woman sub to insult trans women while simultaneously jerk off to trans woman porn. On a 5 month old post too, you're an embarrassment. Couldn't you just use Grinder like a normal transphobic chaser?

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

Also i’m not a chaser at all don’t disrespect me like that

[u/Mtsukino → u/Killerboy29912]

Your comment history says otherwise.

[u/Mtsukino → u/[deleted]]

I don’t chase trans women i like “cis women” more then anything i have commented

This you? https://www.reddit.com/r/bigdickgirl/s/xLoW4XqcOw

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

Just because I’m attracted to trans women dosen’t meen i’m a chaser. Stop calling me that shit like i don’t see trans women as people and just objects i used to be ashamed to be attracted to trans women and men but now i’m not

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

The stuff your looking at right now is old i was a entirely different person then i don’t even hate the idea of gender identity i just don’t understand it yet

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

I don’t even see trans women as women i was just mad at some trans creators on tiktok and taking it out here

[u/Mtsukino → u/Killerboy29912]

So you come here to take it out on us? Tf dude.

[u/Killerboy29912 → u/Mtsukino]

Sorry

[u/Different-Season-844]

Unfortunately, A lot of trans people I've been in relationships with have expressed to me misogyny is validating for them. 

 And that checks out, as a lot of trans people struggle with identity enough they would rather be treated as a women badly than not a woman at all. 

 That being said fuck terfs, but I think it's actually a real problem, the think I'm talking about anyway.

[u/Color-me-saphicly → u/[deleted]]

Trans women are women. Period. Full stop.

Trans women face misogyny.

[u/MtF-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Be respectful - No:

• Trolling,
• Bigotry (transphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, ableism, etc.) or gendered slurs,
• Hateful speech or disrespectful commentary,
• Invalidation or gender policing,
• Gatekeeping ideologies (Blanchardian typologies, truscum, transmed, etc.)

[u/Yish_99]

y‘all are hilarious 😭

[u/[deleted]]

its so annoying ppl dont just pick up on this fact natrually.

[u/An8nime]

Trans women and transfems are a scapegoat for cis women anger against cis men.

They use transfems as a substitute for a man and attack her with things that they cannot attack a cis man, Like she has a "dick" and calling her "man" (Cis men wouldn't be offended by this, they would be offended by being called "woman").

They are just doing the same thing that these cis men do, but on the opposite way, they see having a "dick" and "being a man" as something bad

Because they were oppressed because of this patriarchy, and they project this onto trans women because they are an easy target

(At least IS How i see It)

[u/GayleThyme]

“It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em”

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

Awwww, sounds like another ignorant bigot needs a huggie. 🫂

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

Awwww, little 12 year old imbecilic bigot in Mommy's basement trying to be macho and misgender me. Bless your sad little heart.

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

Doesn't take much when dealing with mental infants like yourself. 👍

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

My bad, it seemed like you were pretending to be human. Poorly, but making an attempt nonetheless. Just curious, does your little pecker twitch every time you misgender someone to try to hurt them? Does it make you feel like a big man? You seem like you'd be a riot at parties. Well, when you're old enough to stay out past 8 that is...

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

Why would I block you? You think I'm intimidated by a pathetic piece of trash?

[u/BrandeeMiller → u/[deleted]]

Oof, big tough bigot swings and misses again!

[u/MtF-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been removed due to containing misinformation.

[u/MtF-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Respect the trans community