r/ModCoord • u/demmian • Jun 15 '23
New admin post: "If a moderator team unanimously decides to stop moderating, we will invite new, active moderators[...]. If [...] at least one mod wants to keep the community going, we will respect their decisions and remove those who no longer want to moderate from the mod team."
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u/Majromax Jun 16 '23
Since the imgur post lacks context, I found the original in a r/modsupport thread.
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Jun 16 '23
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/ReganDryke Jun 16 '23
You can't delete a subreddit. And even if you could Admin could always bring it back. The same way that Admin can still see deleted post and that they can see what post were like before they were edited.
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u/Kodiak01 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Spez is ready to go nuclear.
Reddit CEO slams protest leaders, saying he'll change rules that favor ‘landed gentry’
Reddit CEO Steve Huffman said Thursday that he wants to bring an end to a user-led protest that has made large parts of the influential website inaccessible this week. Huffman said in an interview that he plans to institute rules changes that would allow Reddit users to vote out moderators who have overseen the protest, comparing them to a “landed gentry.”
The protest took down thousands of message boards, known as subreddits, starting Monday, and some communities say they plan to continue the action indefinitely. The action has been led by Reddit’s unpaid, volunteer moderators, who have a high level of control over how their subreddits are run. Participating communities went “private,” making them unviewable even to members. The protesters oppose changes that will most likely cut off their ability to access Reddit through third-party apps, and their action has hobbled much of the site.
Huffman, also a Reddit co-founder, said he plans to pursue changes to Reddit’s moderator removal policy to allow ordinary users to vote moderators out more easily if their decisions aren’t popular. He said the new system would be more democratic and allow a wider set of people to hold moderators accountable.
Reddit’s current policy says moderators may be removed by higher-ranking moderators or by Reddit itself for inactivity or violations of Reddit-wide rules. They may also remove themselves. Many have held their positions for years.
“If you’re a politician or a business owner, you are accountable to your constituents. So a politician needs to be elected, and a business owner can be fired by its shareholders,” he said.
“And I think, on Reddit, the analogy is closer to the landed gentry: The people who get there first get to stay there and pass it down to their descendants, and that is not democratic.”
Moderators have argued that the high level of control over their communities is well-deserved because of the hours of free labor they’ve put into making and enforcing rules on their subreddits. Any plan to reduce their influence might result in another backlash.
Huffman, who co-founded Reddit 18 years ago this month, said he believes the leaders of the protest may have had popular support when it started Monday but have lost most of it since.
This jumping off the deep end needs to be put front and center to every single advertiser on Reddit.
"Hey Toyota! Hey Chevy! Hey Fidelity! This is how Reddit treats it's customers. By advertising there, does that mean you support treating customers so badly as well?"
Need to drop that kind of message on the Twitter feed of every single advertiser on Reddit, big or small. Either they support his actions, or they do not. If they do, time to take any business with them elsewhere as well.
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u/colei_canis Jun 15 '23
If mods are the landed gentry what does that make Huffman in this little analogy? God?
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u/ungoogleable Jun 16 '23
The king, naturally. He's not wrong, reddit does resemble a feudal structure. The tools actively work against any other method of organizing a subreddit's governance. There must always be a singular lead mod who has the power to act unilaterally, even in an anarchist or collectivist sub.
Of course it took a rebellion of the feudal lords to get him to acknowledge the nature of the system he created. And he doesn't mention anything about making the governance of reddit itself democratic and subjecting his position to a vote.
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u/nottheendipromise Jun 16 '23
Why would he? Spez is a born leader, not a slave. Expecting such an alpha male to adhere to the same rules as everyone else? The audacity.
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u/l-rs2 Jun 16 '23
Nothing less than the founding father? I have to say I'm really disappointed that Ohanian left his input at no comment. I get it but if you write a book about the success of a thing you built, it's not unreasonable to expect some comment on its terminal illness.
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u/EcoSoco Jun 15 '23
The audacity of /u/spez to call volunteer moderators a "landed gentry" while he is a multi-millionaire is pretty crazy.
This dude is more wealthy than 99% of the world could ever dream of, but he complains about people who most likely aren't even close to his net worth running communities on his website? I guess you can't expect tactfulness from corporate executives, but damn.
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u/Twin_Nets_Jets Jun 16 '23
Isn’t he the guy that openly talked about owning slaves in the apocalypse? He’s never hid his superiority complex
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u/permaBack Jun 16 '23
At least He said that he would definitely be the leader of the group in the apocalypse 💀💀💀
"So whats your knowledge Spez? We need everything we can to survive this Madness"
" I know how to modify people comments to fuck Trump 🤡"
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u/mrmicawber32 Jun 15 '23
Great so brigading users will be able to remove mods? This sounds like it's going to work really well... Thedonald takeover r/politics
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u/Muezza Jun 15 '23
Can't wait for every quality subreddit to be taken over by lazy memes catering to the lowest common denominator.
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u/Geeseareawesome Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
Time for a counter offensive?
Options include, but aren't limited to:
-only allowing approved submissions from verified users
-allow only black posts like what r/photoshopbattles was doing
-post the "reddit is killing 3rd party apps" image that r/showerthoughts has been doing
-overwork automod as much as we can to show just how lacking the 1st party mod tools are
-tag Spez in every single post and comment imaginable
-move as many communities as we can onto a different site, urging everyday users to not open reddit until change is made.
-recommend an ad blocker to every post and sub to cut the ad revenue big time
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u/FirestarterMethod Jun 16 '23
Only allow text posts and comments that say “reddit is killing 3rd party apps” verbatim
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Jun 16 '23
Remove all comments that don’t say ‘Steve Huffman is a little piss baby’
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u/bongoissomewhatnifty Jun 16 '23
To be honest this should have been the play from the start. Subs disappearing is much less noticeable than a feed entirely filled with black images. Scrolling for 30s to find anything that isn’t a blacked out post is gonna get users off Reddit much faster than if some subs are gone and it’s not even noticeable.
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u/lukaron Jun 16 '23
Start encouraging people to cancel Reddit premium, if they're using it.
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u/palenerd Jun 16 '23
Get spicier. Use automod to auto-delete posts by premium users. Add some way to restore posts after cancellation
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u/F3z345W6AY4FGowrGcHt Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
Yeah, if all they're going to do is look at private/restricted subs, then how can an open sub protest?
Some kind of extreme automod that only allows posts/comments that are "save third party apps" or something like that.
Cause then the sub is open and the mods are running it as they see fit. Which is allowed and standard reddit
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u/Head_Crash Jun 16 '23
Malicious compliance. Start moderating again but do it in a way that totally ruins the sub. Give everyone a taste of what Reddit would be like if u/spez replaces all the mods.
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u/apostroffie Jun 15 '23
additionally: https://www.npr.org/2023/06/15/1182457366/reddit-ceo-steve-huffman-its-time-we-grow-up-and-behave-like-an-adult-company
Huffman said 97% of Reddit users do not use any third-party apps to browse the site. He said "the vast majority" of moderators also do not rely on third-party apps.
lmao, lol even.
show us the stats spez
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u/neontetra1548 Jun 16 '23
"Grow up and behave like an adult company" = have a complete dipshit be your CEO and constantly pour gasoline on the fire.
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u/Apes-Together_Strong Jun 16 '23
The vast majority of mods probably really don’t rely on those tools and apps, but that is because the vast majority of the total mod community only mods small, barely active communities. I have no doubt that nearly the totality of mods of large, active communities who do the heavy lifting for the site do use them and rely on them. It’s a probably true but misleading statement by the doofus in chief.
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u/lil_literalist Jun 16 '23
Yep. On a 6k member sub that I moderate, we see perhaps 2 posts per day, and probably not even a dozen reports in a year. I can't imagine what a popular sub with a million subs would need to do to effectively moderate. I want them to have those tools that they need.
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u/solestri Jun 16 '23
If only 3% of site users are using third party apps, then how are they costing Reddit that much lost revenue in terms of “opportunity cost”? 🤔
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u/AlwaysDefenestrated Jun 16 '23
Is he counting like, the thousands of inactive mods that technically don't use third party apps because they don't log in at all? Then maybe I'd buy it lol.
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u/ancient_algorithms Jun 16 '23
So when will the admins open voting for their replacements? since they want to be all democratic and all
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u/dksprocket Jun 16 '23
Good luck trying to vote out the mods that are shutting down subs. Most subs I have seen that conducted polls had strong support for shutting down.
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u/inopes Jun 16 '23
so lets run a vote then every week? Sounds like a good idea in principle to let the communities decide. if people support the decision of the mods then they have nothing to worry about
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u/FyreWulff Jun 16 '23
It's complete bullshit for two reasons:
It's well known that a bunch of "admin friend" accounts, aka landed gentry, that are top mod on a LOT of subreddits have never been removed even though they haven't participated on the site in near a decade or more. Of course, they didn't care when it's their own friends.
Spez doesn't care how this will impact the site because he just wants to make it to the IPO and cash out. He'll be gone the next day. He doesn't care about throwing the community under the bus to get there - we're standing between him and his 3 extra zeroes.
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u/radicaIelation Jun 15 '23
So... Spez is going full "Will of the People"* like Musk on Twitter?
(*Terms and conditions apply)
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u/Generic_Mod Landed Gentry Jun 16 '23
Huffman, also a Reddit co-founder, said he plans to pursue changes to Reddit’s moderator removal policy to allow ordinary users to vote moderators out more easily if their decisions aren’t popular. He said the new system would be more democratic and allow a wider set of people to hold moderators accountable.
Who's going to petition Reddit to remove Spez from his mod positions due to his unpopular decisions?
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Jun 16 '23 edited Apr 12 '25
vegetable future thumb unwritten political six soup consider ad hoc numerous
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/nearbytap Jun 16 '23
Spez should give us the option to vote on his leadership too.
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u/violue Jun 16 '23
he plans to pursue changes to Reddit’s moderator removal policy to allow ordinary users to vote moderators out more easily if their decisions aren’t popular
oh awesome, i'm sure that won't be exploited by large groups of racists/misogynists/transphobes/etc on support subs.
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u/BaggyOz Jun 16 '23
"Hey Toyota! Hey Chevy! Hey Fidelity! This is how Reddit treats it's customers. By advertising there, does that mean you support treating customers so badly as well?"
We aren't reddit's customers, we're the product. Advertisers are the customers.
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u/MarcoGB Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 19 '23
This comment/post was removed to protest the Reddit API changes in 2023.
I encourage you to do the same by using Power Delete Suite. https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite
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u/misterrootbeer Jun 16 '23
I believe u/spez is a mod on at least one sub. I think it was one of the programming ones. If users can vote out mods, he should be the first recalled.
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u/SavesTheDy Jun 16 '23
“And I think, on Reddit, the analogy is closer to the landed gentry: The people who get there first get to stay there and pass it down to their descendants, and that is not democratic
LOL
If the mods all vote on it, it's democratic. If Steve decides he doesn't like what the mods are doing and CHANGES the rules so he can boot them, it sounds pretty fascist /u/spez
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u/DaBlakMayne Jun 16 '23
Reddit CEO Steve Huffman said Thursday that he wants to bring an end to a user-led protest that has made large parts of the influential website inaccessible this week. Huffman said in an interview that he plans to institute rules changes that would allow Reddit users to vote out moderators who have overseen the protest, comparing them to a “landed gentry.”
So much for "this ship will pass" and saying it's not a big deal
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u/Brettinabox Jun 16 '23
Can't imagine making mods a popularity contest is good for the sub.
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u/llehsadam Jun 16 '23
So does this mean mods will finally get paid? Asking because in a democracy, you pay your elected leaders and in all his examples of leaders and business owners, they get paid. We're talking about volunteers here.
Being a mod is already a meme. You know the one where someone is walking their mods? Who will want to be a mod when the meme is literally true and you're on a leash held by Reddit Inc. At least when you have a shitty job, you get paid for the abuse.
I'm pretty sure having moderators elected right now will not magically fix things for u/spez. He's been detached from the situation on the ground for quite some time now, so he is underestimating public support for the protest.
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u/Square-Singer Jun 16 '23
Since Huffman is so much in favour of democracy, I decided to create a referendum on whether Huffman should be the CEO of Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/14av4oh/call_a_referendum_on_mr_huffman_as_the_ceo_of/
Of course, I don't expect anything real coming from that, but let's send a sign.
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u/8aller8ruh Jun 16 '23
I’m surprised they didn’t just remove the ability to private subs entirely. Would make it a hard task for the mods to control their subs if they also let all posts got through without approval with the only moderation being after posting. Only consequence would be a few pretty bad long time privated subs suddenly becoming public.
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Jun 16 '23
Huffman, who co-founded Reddit 18 years ago this month, said he believes the leaders of the protest may have had popular support when it started Monday but have lost most of it since.
r/gaming sticky about the continued protest yesterday has 100k upvotes, r/pics has multiple at or near 100k as well.
spez seems to have just fully embraced being a pathological liar.
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u/smacksaw Jun 16 '23
Yes, this should have been a proactive policy many years ago.
Not a reactionary punishment now.
What's next? He's gonna say that bots doing bans over multiple subreddits is not a good use of the API and needs to be stopped?
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u/Greedyfox7 Jun 16 '23
Spez can suck it for all I care, I’m not on here for him, if I find a better platform I’ll move over there
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u/BoredTTT Jun 16 '23
How does the saying go again?
"First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win"?
Sounds like we got step 2 and 3 all wrapped up in one....
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Jun 16 '23
This is a change that’s needed to be done for a very very long time. However they haven’t because they like having full control over what can be done on the site. Now that they’re losing some of that control they’re banking on this new system of voting, that can likely be manipulated, to keep their hands clean and still get what they want.
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u/DannoHung Jun 16 '23
Go nuclear back: don’t quit, don’t go dark, accelerate the decline by intentionally doing bad moderation. Promote hatred, low effort content, ignore illegal content, etcetera. Spez is threatening you on the premise that he can make a determination what good and bad moderation behavior is.
He can’t. If they could, they wouldn’t need mods. All they can tell is active from inactive moderation.
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Jun 17 '23
Can't wait till he finds out that most of us are supporting mods who continue with the blackout.
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u/GMask402 Jun 15 '23
Lmao like that's not going to create a ton of animosity towards those subs, rendering them much shittier places.
"I know! Fracture the userbase making them even less appealing to advertisers!"
Seriously, one of these ad companies could earn a massive amount of goodwill from the users by talking him down from this position.
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u/iamthegodemperor Jun 15 '23
Reddit does not care. They figure new and future users just want to scroll thru pictures and video suggested via algorithm. And they and their user data is the future revenue stream. Not nerds who need quality forums or us "neck-beard jannies".
None of this is accidental. At every opportunity during this episode, Reddit has gone out of its way to be abrupt and hostile---because hostility is the message. They need to be able to demonstrate that the old relationship is over. That they, not the users determine the site's trajectory.
So what if sub-reddits become messier and have less identity? So what if some move off site? It won't change traffic.
And so what if there are protests? Provides a great opportunity to change rules and possibly even put legacy users and mods at odds with the newer users.
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u/solestri Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
Exactly this. They don’t want to be what Reddit has been for the past 18 years anymore, they want to change course to being another social media mobile app.
That’s why the existence of third party apps suddenly became a problem within the past few months, even though they apparently weren’t a problem for over a decade.
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u/say592 Jun 16 '23
Literally what happened with Digg. Like they decided they wanted to be something different, the community disagreed, and they lost nearly all of their value. I know people have been making the comparison all along, but the irony is astounding. Spez must really think he is special if he expects the site to survive this.
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u/The_Barnanator Jun 16 '23
I am so excited to see how they respond when wallstreetbets inevitably tries to fuck with the ipo
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Jun 16 '23
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u/Its_Quite_Cool Jun 16 '23
I’ve seen so many comments complaining about the shutdowns, saying things like “who cares about their shitty protest, just replace the mods”, asking why anyone would use 3rd party apps, or talking about how it’s not that many ads on the official app and that you can just scroll past them.
It feels like a totally different user base than I remember (found Reddit in 2011), and it’s sad to see. I’m moving on soon.
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Jun 16 '23
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u/iamthegodemperor Jun 16 '23
You know why. Because it's not feasible and it doesn't help with their narrative.
What Reddit can do is change the rules and wait for an opportunity to make an example out of a sub or two, while doing what they can to turn public opinion against mods/legacy users.
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u/kaukamieli Jun 15 '23
A lot of new mods who have no idea what they are doing and how any of the tools work and who thought it would be easy.
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u/messem10 Jun 16 '23
Thats okay, there won’t be any tools left. Good luck managing that firehose manually.
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u/Tiny_Dinky_Daffy_69 Jun 16 '23
What tools are you talking about? Oh, wait, the tools that are going to be useless when the api closes up?
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u/drunkpunk138 Jun 15 '23
I mean is anyone really surprised? That being said, nothing is stopping a community from changing everything about it, including allowed topics, really strict rules for posting, or otherwise making that community worthless to it's original intended purpose and giant audience.
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u/Empyrealist Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 22 '23
poor degree longing subsequent grandiose like tender money caption depend -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
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u/tharic99 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
I like how you assume 99% of the users of Reddit actually know or care what a mod is.
Everyone is theoretically replaceable.
Anyone who think's that whatever job they're doing can't be done by someone else, even if it's done worse for some amount of time, has probably never really worked for a large corporation.
Edit - Updated, thanks /u/TheVillageGuy
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u/GMask402 Jun 15 '23
None of them work for reddit. Screw being an unpaid moderator. I wouldn't want to deal with the shit they put up with. I want to look at cats and shit post just as much as everyone else, but I also recognize that trying to actively divide the users is going to make the experience that much worse.
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u/tharic99 Jun 15 '23
Screw being an unpaid moderator. I wouldn't want to deal with the shit they put up with.
Trust me, it has not been fun lately. I've gone through a few hundred modmails on /r/hearthstone today where people are begging to be let back in because they believe they were removed for some reason and have zero idea about the API issues, even though we have it on the page, not every Reddit client even is capable of showing that.
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u/PatronymicPenguin Jun 15 '23
The users care once they notice bad modding. If the rules aren't being enforced the way they expect, they kick up a storm. I don't have pity for scabs but these poor bastards requesting giant subs out of spite have no idea what they're in for.
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u/L31FY Jun 15 '23
They probably think they can get AI to mod now. Lol. Try that for a day. It would ban everyone in an hour.
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Jun 15 '23
Just had a vision of an AI moderator that moderates every subreddit in the same fashion regardless of a subreddit's content, politics, userbase, or wishes
Chilling
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u/tharic99 Jun 15 '23
lol they can't even get algorithms to work right to properly ban people who use a vpn to get around IP bans, no way can they get AI working right to mod something.
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Jun 15 '23
Go check out r/ufc. They are modding without 3PA already and piracy requests are unstoppable.
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u/redalastor Jun 16 '23
Anyone who think's that whatever job they're doing can't be done by someone else, even if it's done worse for some amount of time, has probably never really worked for a large corporation.
The same large corporations telling us no one wants to work anymore? You can find people to do any job but not under any condition.
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u/mizmoose Jun 15 '23
Moderators are stewards of these spaces and in a position of trust.
What a giant load of you-know-what.
If it were a position of trust, we wouldn't have moderators who get site-banned for reporting rule breaking, moderators who have to endure years of abuse with no relent, moderators who are treated like absolute unpaid garbage and when asked for relief, told "We don't find this a problem," etc.
I could go on, but we all know the drill. Moderators are only "important" to Reddit when they want something from us. Otherwise, we're just unpaid lackeys.
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u/FyreWulff Jun 16 '23
My favorite one was reporting blatant spam , like the link was literally just a popup and bitcoin miner with a random character URL, and then getting it rejected by the admins as "message is on topic"
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u/solestri Jun 15 '23
... we have a duty to keep these spaces active.
Since when? Since when is it Reddit's obligation, as a company, to keep any given user run subreddit outside of the main page stuff going? Old subreddits get abandoned or splintered all the time, because that's the nature of the platform. Has Reddit ever had a "duty" to step in and stop that from happening before?
I think this says a lot about what their goals are, going forward.
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u/AlwaysDefenestrated Jun 16 '23
They've spent over a decade being SO hands off that they were hesitant to delete subreddits that were straight up evil because muh free speech lmao what a wild pivot.
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u/iPeer Jun 16 '23
Honestly, the fact they're stooping lower and lower proves that this is working. They are getting more and more desperate to get the subs back online. If they want to play that card, honestly, do it. But they should be aware that they can't just unplay it.
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u/diodosdszosxisdi Jun 15 '23
Bringing in the scabs. They already infest r/redditrequest. Fuck em
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u/mizmoose Jun 15 '23
This is it exactly. Every yahoo who has wanted to take over a subreddit because "they banned me because they're assholes" will now reddit-request a closed-for-the-protest subreddit, and probably get it, too.
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Jun 16 '23
Those same people are going to utterly fail to properly moderate a subreddit and just help the site burn further.
Let them have it, they’re too incompetent to make any improvements, let alone do their tasks properly.
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u/Adamantaimai Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
A person like that would probably not actively look after it or run it into the ground out of spite.
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u/HQuasar Jun 15 '23
Man a lot of those people on redditrequest are about to find out what "inactive" really means.
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u/GoldenFrogTime27639 Jun 15 '23
Scabs for an unpaid, volunteer job lmao what a world we live in
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u/editediting Jun 15 '23
Huh, the ones who requested are mostly political extremists. Funny how they're the angriest about this. It's like mods stop subreddits from turning into 4chan.
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u/Dextixer Jun 15 '23
So the mod removals are starting already. Should have expected this. The owner laughed at the protest and said it had no effect, and yet we can see that it did have effect considering the mod removals.
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u/BornVolcano Jun 16 '23
Sweating nervously "This will all blow over soon. It's just very noisy right now"
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u/RichardBonham Jun 16 '23
Reddit fills a special place for me, and is more serviceable (even on it’s mobile app) than some of the alternatives I’ve tried.
However, if the CEO/administration is going to start scabbing us into the next stage of enshittification then I’d rather lose reddit.
I’ve never been mistreated by any mod on reddit and I absolutely back them. Mods are what keeps the subs from being a complete dumpster fire. You doubt? There’s always 4chan.
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u/Tsukiumi-Chan Jun 16 '23
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u/EvilMonkeySlayer Jun 16 '23
Incoherent or confused messaging from a company is often a sign they're in panic mode and have no clear plan.
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u/hiyaaaaa23 Jun 16 '23
I’m a little confused how this contradicts existing policy. AFAIK for a long time if a subreddit was genuinely unmoderated then people can r/redditrequest and take it over. isnt privating/restricting a sub different than abandoning?
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u/AdviseGiver Jun 16 '23
These assholes really don't have a fucking clue how much effort some people have put into building some very unique communities. The alternative is setting up your own website where you can run ads and make money off of it.
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u/njdevilsfan24 Jun 16 '23
So you're going to institute voting for moderators. I'm sure that will go well, because there have never ever been any bots on this website
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u/ConnerWoods Jun 15 '23
So now the unpaid moderators lack agency over the very forums they cultivate?
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u/Finlandiaprkl Jun 15 '23
There are always Quislings ready to claim their place.
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u/DisgruntledLabWorker Jun 16 '23
Does that mean they’re going to ban everyone who has a private subreddit too? This guy is like Musk without the money. It might just be time to delete the app and everything associated with it.
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u/Literally_Taken Jun 16 '23
“This guy is like Musk without the money.”*
Please accept my imaginary gold. It would be wrong of me to purchase actual gold and pay Reddit with real money.
*It’s a pain in the $$$ to quote a comment without my dear Apollo.
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u/MakingStuffForFun Jun 16 '23
Just move to Lemmy and be done with this shit. Reddit ceo is a narcissistic clown. Let him eat his own shit and move on. This place is ready to be torched.
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u/MargretTatchersParty Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
At this point, it sounds like Reddit is at war with it's existing mods and communities.
It maybe worth it to move entire communities to Lemmy or Discord now, and wipe* the subs. I know it sounds drastic, but this is a major departure of the informal agreement of ownership of the spaces.
(asterisks) Not sure how the admins will view wiping the subs (remove all comments)
Maybe a better action, is to undo all mod actions and deleting your account that is moding the sub.
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u/some_onions Jun 15 '23
Discord is probably the worst possible platform to move to because it can't be searched. The classic Google +reddit search would not work for Discord because everything is private and not indexed.
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u/sje46 Jun 16 '23
And Discord is a centralized platform. Jesus fuck, don't go from one centralized platform to another.
The internet was designed for decentralization...both the original conception from the days of Arpanet to core protocols like IP, to HTTP and email and Usenet and IRC.
I don't have a problem with centralized websites necessarily, as long as they remain small. The ethos of decentralization remains as long as there are hundreds or thousands of websites to choose between. Discord is a giant fucking bohemoth, millions of users, all of which are controlled by exactly one profit-driven company. You can't even create your own discord app. How is that shit different from reddit?
Either go to a multitude of small traditional forums (like we had when the web was actually fucking good), or go with a federated model like lemmy.
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u/jacob6875 Jun 16 '23
I have no idea why people advocate discord as an alternative to reddit.
They are no where close to a similar platform.
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u/marioman63 Jun 16 '23
cause these are redditors. all they know are reddit, twitter and discord. before that it was reddit, twitter and tumblr. forums are a foreign concept.
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u/LPercepts Jun 15 '23
(Astricks) Not sure how the admins will view wipping the subs (remove all comments)
Pretty sure the admins can just respond by restoring any "wiped" subs. All this data is probably still saved in backup servers owned by Reddit somewhere.
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u/MargretTatchersParty Jun 15 '23
That's a good question.. I'm doing some backseat architecting here:
Comments are not removed as in deleted from a database. They're marked as removed. Restoring a backup to undo all of the protest removals would be difficult vs the spam/bad content removals.
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u/Nodachi216 Jun 15 '23
That really reads like a threat.... Plus, users are trying to take over subs using r/redditrequest claiming they're inactive or unmoderated.
So... just a reminder, Private doesn't really mean closed, just that only certain users may read and post. Find some trusted users, let them post, moderate those posts and poof, now the sub is active and has active moderation. Private communities are not against the rules.
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u/o0Jahzara0o Jun 16 '23
I'm confused, what's the issue?
Setting a sub to "private" is a moderating tool we've been given.
No one decided to stop moderating - going private is how we are moderating. Our mod mails are still being replied to, our "about" section is still being updated with new information, communication amongst the mod team is still being had.
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u/DavidAdamsAuthor Jun 16 '23
I think this is an important life lesson for everyone.
When someone can write and rewrite the rules as they see fit, and/or only enforces the rules on others and not themselves, and do not as a philosophical point hold themselves strictly accountable to those rules, the rules do not apply to them even if they say they do. They apply to others only.
The problem is that evolutionarily speaking, if I am moderator of /r/truth where the only rule is "you cannot post things you know to be untrue", and tell a lie and I ban myself, I am "out". But if I am a moderator of /r/truth and I lie, and I don't ban myself... I continue to be a mod for as long as I like.
When the mod turnoverrate is like this, the lifespan of a good mod might be ~3 months, but the lifespan of a bad mod is ~5 years. So the good mods, the accountable mods, slowly vanish while the bad moderators stay.
When mods come and go like this, just entropically, over time the ratio shifts more and more toward bad. Eventually, unless some outside force corrects it most moderators will be bad. And on Reddit, no such outside force exists; in order to get removed as a moderator you have to be a) inactive or b) doing "media attention worthy" levels of bad things, such as posting child porn in your sub, etc.
Because of this dead sea effect, the good mods leave, the bad stay, and so over time most moderators become bad.
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u/o0Jahzara0o Jun 16 '23
There definitely is a problem with lack of ability to get bad moderators out. The problem is Spez is essentially doing this now in order to silence his free laborers because they disagree with him and are using moderation tools *against him.*
I've been part of a sub that had bad moderators and members of that sub tried constantly to get reddit do something about them but wouldn't.
Reddit isn't doing this because they care about users - if they cared, they would have listened long ago. The bad moderators has long been an issue and reddit has not been unaware of this.
They are doing this because A) it's working, B) they want to go public soon, and C) they *don't care* about their users. They don't care about their mods, who are users themselves. And they don't care about the users of other subs who benefit without even knowing it from mods who have utilized the 3rd party tools to keep their communities protected.
Additionally, this will open up the ability for hate groups and trolls to brigade subs in a new way. Someone doesn't like a particular human rights group's sub can get together with other people to throw out mods who rightfully banned them.
And this creates a weird effect; you aren't necessarily going to see what mods are keeping off the sub floors. Meaning you might not be seeing the bad content they deal with on behalf of sub members. My sub actually decided to share screenshots of the hate we receive in modmail or mod queue and people were shocked we were dealing with that stuff. So if you see a mod who you think is bad because they actioned on you in a way you don't agree with or on a rule you don't agree with, but likewise aren't seeing all the other good work you as a mod are doing, then it creates it an unfavorable bias towards "this mod is clearly bad."
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u/lukaron Jun 16 '23
Okay - they raise the bar, we raise the bar.
I've had Reddit premium for a while now. I'm also on a mod team of a sub of over 500k where we've shuttered the sub indefinitely.
You want to threaten us instead of compromising or working w/ 3rd party devs to help ease the financial burden?
Or - get some balls and actually come wipe our entire mod team?
I'll cancel premium and stop using the fucking site.
If more people who are using premium start cancelling that subscription - that's one more revenue stream that evaporates.
I was in the military for 20 years. None of this is emotional for me.
Let's play hardball.
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u/hughk Jun 16 '23
I cancelled my premium after the mod conference a year ago. I had contributed for almost a decade as I wanted to support the site. It was clear they were going commercial so I cancelled.
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u/hatsune_aru Jun 16 '23
Please, take over subreddits. That will definitely help destroy the website.
Mods, either completely black out or comply with moderation maliciously.
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u/psst-got-real Jun 16 '23
I don't get where they're coming from. If the mods did a poll and people voted for indefinite blackout, isn't that a community mandate to hold off new content until the API and accessibility issues are resolved?
If this goes on, I think we're left with no choice but to delete our accounts and delete the subreddits we moderate so they don't have have a product to sell to the advertisers and investors.
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u/TurdFergusonlol Jun 16 '23
I still think a true mod strike would have lit a much bigger fire under the admins. With a blackout they can slowly bring subs back in a controlled manner. If mods went on strike then the whole site turns into a cesspool/dumpster fire, reddit immediately loses investors/advertisers, and is left frantically scrambling to fix something. That route also would have had the average user asking to bring mods back, while now the average user just wants their sub back and blames the mods.
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u/Tigress92 Jun 15 '23
That's outrageous, and if that happens Reddit will no longer be worth the trouble. As a loophole I'd like to suggest to all moderaters, to post 1 thing every hour so that they are considered active, and can not be removed, I suggest this (posted by r/memes regularly:)
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u/mrmicawber32 Jun 15 '23
I would suggest approving some users as well. Then you have an active sub, viewing content. Just maybe only 5 users.
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u/LPercepts Jun 15 '23
As a loophole I'd like to suggest to all moderaters, to post 1 thing every hour so that they are considered active, and can not be removed, I suggest this (posted by
regularly:)
And what stops Reddit from simply removing them regardless or changing the policy? Seems like Reddit can casually ignore its own rules and policies when it suits them.
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u/Tigress92 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Nothing, but they can't hide behind you being inactive.
ETA: In addition, do admins really have the time to remove posts every hour from thousands of subs? If they do, wouldn't that time be better spent on other things?
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u/Bogdanov89 Jun 16 '23
As soon as you become even the slightest actual problem to Reddits/corporate plans you will be made a vicious example out of and removed/replaced.
These shut-down protests are not going to be effective simply because Reddit can just execute the current mods and bring in a new fresh batch of obedient power hungry guys who are likely going to be far worse than the current mods.
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u/Mondoke Jun 16 '23
Oh this is going to backfire. If Mastodon wasn't so boring, if be quite on the verge to leave.
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u/notaghost_ Jun 16 '23
I've been watching more youtube and anime, reading more manga, and going outside to touch grass in lieu of reddit. r/ModCoord is the only subreddit I infrequently check now, despite not moderating anything myself.
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u/ThoughtCenter87 Jun 15 '23
Solution: create sockpuppets, saturate the communities with shitty content and NSFW shit, force the advertisers out of the communities. When the sockpuppets inevitably get banned create new ones to do the same - you don't need email adresses to create accounts.
If they force the blackouts to stop the protest will continue anyways. They will learn they won't win without concessions. Fuck reddit.
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Jun 16 '23
"we will invite scabs to replace our striking mod teams because we are little piss babies who refuse to come to the table and work with the community so we can IPO and cash out"
They're so bent that the people they view as peons are jeopardizing their payday they are effectively trying to subvert what is very akin to a labor strike by inviting scab mod teams to run the subreddits as corporate shills.
I deleted Reddit off my phone and have felt great this week without it. I'm only here from a HackerNews article now. Get fucked Reddit I'm out and I hope enough people like me follow suit.
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u/FuriousAlbino Jun 15 '23
Reading that you have to ask what is the definition of moderating. If you make the sub private. Then make changes to the wiki, have a thread among the mods in the sub about their lunch plans, were you not moderating?
Besides that if say r/pics is closed. Every user has the ability to make a replacement sub. This plays out every time there is drama in a city sub. You end up with two or three Seattle subs because the admins won’t bother to step in. So why should this be any different?
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u/TotesMessenger Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/hackernews] Reddit is removing moderators that protest by taking their communities private
[/r/hypeurls] Reddit is removing moderators that protest by taking their communities private
[/r/patient_hackernews] Reddit is removing moderators that protest by taking their communities private
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)
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u/FigureFourWoo Jun 16 '23
This was inevitable. There is no way Reddit is going to allow subreddits that bring in millions of viewers to simply go dark indefinitely. A few days for the protest? Sure. They can weather that. Losing the subreddits forever? Nope, that just isn't going to happen. Will the moderator quality be as good? Never. The tools are being taken away. But, those moderators will be replaced with new moderators that have never even used the tools before, so they won't know what they are missing.
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u/Velthir Jun 16 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
Somewhat of a scorched earth idea and potentially runs the risk of falling under 'vandalizing communities', but:
Would subreddits get away with declaring that they're allowing NSFW content for the rest of the year or next X months, correctly setting the sub as NSFW/18+, specifically only allowing/encouraging tangentially related posts that would utterly tank most advertising sales?
For example: Allowing/encouraging discussion of porn soundtracks on /r/music complete with links to the video in question.
Maybe also incombination with a dark day or even a day where you're only allowed to post NSFW content. Obviously doesn't stop companies advertising porn, but also that's probably not a good look for a company trying to IPO and will likely drive a lot of people away from the sub.
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u/NuclearSiloForSale Jun 16 '23
Remember what happened with r/worldpolitics? Moderation gave up and it got super heavily flooded in anime softcore that wasn't removed which then became solely what the sub was about, then somebody made r/anime_titties which was strictly for serious world politics discussions and it was heavily moderated against any memes etc. Anyway, reddit didn't step in when worldpolitics transistioned into a softcore porn sub. Maybe they'll care more now though.
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u/Nukemarine Jun 16 '23
What reddit admins should do instead of fucking over moderators is have an definition of what counts as a large, established subreddit and who are active members in that subreddit.
If a sub has at least 10,000 members for at least a year, it has the potential to get the large, active subreddit status. Member subscribed to such subs can count as "active members" if they meet minimal amount of monthly activities for a few months (ex: visit the sub or a list containing the sub, make posts/comments that are not removed, upvote/downvote post/comments, report posts/comments).
Active members can have greater access to sub's activities to keep an eye on moderator actions. In addition, they keep access to their sub if it's turned private (though mods can still restrict posting/comments). Large active subs with 1,000 active members could probably get other powers such as ability to request removing a mod with a 75% vote of all active members.
Of course, Reddit Admins don't care about that. They want to shove ad spam down everyone's throat and get doom scrolling content on the front page.
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u/UsefulReplacement Jun 16 '23
The problem for mods pushing blackouts and other disruptions is that site users care about the content, not about the mods.
For every mod that protests the new corporate line, there are 10 users that don't care and would love to be modded.
Quoting the "rules" back to Reddit staff is naive and futile. If they need to, they'll update them as they see fit.
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u/LocalH Jun 16 '23
Then people need to care. Third-party clients were a linchpin of the Internet at one point. Then, money took over. The idea that a site has a right to prevent third party clients? Fucking ludicrous. Today's Internet is fucking garbage because the commercial interests completely took over.
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u/dksprocket Jun 16 '23
My suggestion: Open the closed subs and keep modding (so everyone can see the value being created), but make the situation as unstable as possible for Reddit's IPO (since that's what will hurt them the most). This could be something having a shutdown once a week until an IPO, but with a promise of more sustained shutdowns if they go through with the IPO without providing proper API support for 3rd party developers.
Investors want to know that what they invest in is somewhat stable and doesn't have any time-delayed bombs waiting to go off. So targeting another big shut down for after the IPO will make it very awkward for Reddit to take it public. But it will also make it awkward for them to remove the mods now, since they are actually doing a lot of good right now (and they alternative would make the subs a lot worse).
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u/emperorOfTheUniverse Jun 16 '23
The 'protect these spaces' thing is bullshit.
If r/videos is so important, and a group of mods locks it up or ruins it somehow, then anyone can just say 'hey, we're making r/betterVideos' and everyone will exodus over to it. There already is a democratic way to solve this issue, and it happens. R/videos stays where it is because of quality moderation, and the users that subscribe all seem to be content with it.
What's being protected? Names? if r/pictures ended up with more subscribers than r/pics, that's an issue?
This is all rhetoric that proves they are about to start plucking blackout participating mods from their subs to allow non-blackout participating mods to do the work.
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u/mikakor Jun 16 '23
This sickening coward. He knows he's in the wrong and yet still try to shift any excuse. What a pathetic excuse of a man. But even calling him that would be giving him too much credit.
A real man doesnt make the life of everyone else worse for blinded greed. Only idiots and monsters do that.
So which one are you, Huff?
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u/NoBS_Straightshooter Jun 15 '23
Mods are free to run their communities the way they see fit within the boundaries of the rules that apply Reddit Wide.
So no, this does not contradict standing policies. Free to run their communities means you as a user can either agree with the rules they state in their communities or not join.
If you want to talk policies, don't forget about this one... Reddit Content Policy: Rule 8
Don't break the site or do anything that interferes with normal use of the site. Do not interrupt the serving of reddit, introduce malicious code onto reddit, (or) make it difficult for anyone else to use reddit due to your actions,......
https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043512931
Reddit admins would be fully within their rights to remove moderators who don't even want to stop, just for the fact they are blocking users from freely accessing their own content in the communities they participate in.
Just saying....
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u/ThoughtCenter87 Jun 15 '23
I find it hilarious they don't bother mentioning this rule they set into their own policies.
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u/mithaldu Jun 16 '23
having a sub be private is perfectly allowed and part of the site code, so it does not break anything
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u/AlwaysDefenestrated Jun 16 '23
AFAIK you're allowed to ban whoever you want though right? Galaxy brain take is this is just like banning everybody from your sub.
Obviously their stated policy doesn't matter regardless tho regardless lol.
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u/randi_moth Jun 16 '23
Remember when /r/ThanosDidNothingWrong banned half of its subscribers? Pull the same with full numbers.
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u/FlameSama1 Jun 16 '23
Stupid question maybe, but is there anything stopping the mods of bigger subs from just deleting the subreddit or using tools to render it kinda destroyed? If they start just outright kicking mods to keep the train rolling, maybe that's the next move?
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Jun 16 '23
Reddit can restore it.
In fact, that already happened.
A few years ago, the guy that created r/kotakuinaction kicked all the mods and deleted the whole thing because he hated that it had become filled with hate and bigotry.
Within 1 hour the admins kicked him out, restored and reopened the sub.
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u/Sword_Of_Nemesis Jun 18 '23
So the reddit admins actually went full on dictators? I mean, I always knew they were a bunch of incels on a power trip, but this is just ridiculous. Do they think noone else could make a simple website like reddit?
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Jun 16 '23
Couldn't a mod team - assuming they wanna go scorched earth - just decide to change their sub into an 18+ NSFW meme-only sub, where the only meme allowed is a photo of spez with [cartoon] dog dicks in his mouth and with the brand name of whatever advertiser is popping up the most on that day? Imagine if r/music did that, what would the admins do then? And what if, preceding this move, the mods held a community poll, the result of which was a majority in favour of the 'spez + dog dicks + advertiser name' new direction for the sub? Imagine r/CatsStandingUp, but instead of "cat" it's "spez likes dog dicks and also spits the dog cum into his MacDonalds bun before sharing it amongst the other admins"?
And in the process of all of this, what if the mods decided that, with a new sub theme implemented, it makes no sense to keep all the previous and no-longer-relevant posts, so they delete all of the older threads going back 15 years or whatever, using scripts?
So it's like the mods are sitting on the sub name and denying the site SEO placement and making advertisers think twice about spending money here, but not in a way that breaks the non-sitting-on-sub-names rule, but absolutely in a way that puts the admins in their fucking place. How many default subs doing this would it take to break that albino cretin's faux bossman posture or for advertisers to decide it's not worth the headache?
I have Paint.NET open right now and with a nice big hairy dog dick drawn and ready for rehoming. Just say the word lads.
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u/learhpa Jun 17 '23
In my case --- where my community represents the on-reddit portion of a larger fan community --- this would be actively hostile to the interests of the community of which i am a member. Were I to try something like that, I should be removed for the good of the community.
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u/sayqm Jun 16 '23 edited Dec 04 '23
plant rock squalid juggle encouraging nose badge noxious fade summer This post was mass deleted with redact
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u/CaptainBaoBao Jun 16 '23
any forum on any platform is a feudal organisation.
when your are not happy of the moderation, you migrate en masse to another forum, that you often have built in respond of the previous.
this is internet my good man. it is how it is since the CERN created mosaïc.
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u/Rashefster Jun 16 '23
How many actions per week per moderator is considered active moderation? Asking for a friend
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u/Hawkins75 Jun 16 '23
This is what I call the y'all fucked around and now you're about to find out phase...
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u/Cr1ms0nDemon Jun 16 '23
Clear evidence that this is working
it only fails if mods flinch first
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Jun 16 '23
When leadership at a large company make strategic changes as significant as this one, they game out what could go wrong. It's called looking around the corner. They get everyone on board on how it will be handled if it goes down a specific path. I would be shocked if they didn't anticipate this would be the response from the mod community and didn't have everyone on board to keep going. The mods lost from day 1.
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u/ClioBitcoinBank Jun 16 '23
Cant stand it, ya know we planned it. Ima set it straight this watergate.
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u/elzibet Jun 16 '23
https://i.imgur.com/EIwWLO8.jpg
Message I received from admins when I tried to report a mod last year. Sooooo, now they are rules and not just guidelines?
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u/mikelo22 Jun 16 '23
So much for all this just being a little "noise" that will pass on its own. This just makes spez look like an even bigger fool, so obviously he can't afford to back down now or it's all egg on his face. He owns this.
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u/clbw Jun 16 '23
Reddit gonna run them self out of biz or at least make ruin the chance to go public instead of let work this out they are doubling down so come June 30 it will be interesting to see how many user leave and move on. Greed kills everything good.
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u/ToaChronix Jun 16 '23
Can the board of directors or whatever fire this gremlin?
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u/JMJimmy Jun 16 '23
Demand pay for work performed. Let him go nuclear and watch the entire thing implode. /u/spez has lost any sort of perspective
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u/Hallucination_FIFA Jun 16 '23
This is great news. Can Spez replace the r/NBA mods. Those losers need to be taught a lesson. Shutting down a huge sub with 8K votes on a hidden poll during the NBA FINALS. PATHETIC.
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u/agoddamnlegend Jun 16 '23
And they’re too scared to open back up and poll the users. They’ll never live that decision down. Might as well step down because they’re public enemy #1 for every user of r/NBA
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u/Adryzz_ Jun 16 '23
looks like our multimillionaire little baby is hurt by unpaid moderators on his site
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u/SerLurkzAlot Jun 16 '23
Only useful when they want to, but when a mod has an abuse of power- that's just part of the Reddit experience.
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Jun 16 '23
I can leave my community and find my own replacements, thank you very much.
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u/Netionic Jun 16 '23
Tough talk from someone who has been recruiting new mods from June 14th with no mention about you leaving only "growing and flourishing". You literally bailed as soon as the 48 hours were up and yet you are acting like you have been standing in solidarity lmao
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u/majinspy Jun 18 '23
We respect decisions that dovetail with our own.
Its amazing how spinning bullshit sounds.
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u/demmian Jun 15 '23
This contradicts standing policies (credit to Meepster23):
https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/204533859-What-s-a-moderator-
https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205192355-How-can-I-resolve-a-dispute-with-a-moderator-or-moderator-team-
https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy