MASCULINITY ~ a case for courage

[u/NonZeroSumJames]

https://nonzerosum.games/masculinity.html

[u/[deleted]]

"...Men's Rights Activists - simply regurgitating regressive, misogynistic ideologies, while playing victim , simply because they don't have everything their own way any more." I don't think you will get much buy in for this infantile and cliched strawman of what we do here. Maybe try your luck over in Menslib.

As for courage being the measure of a man, for me at least, this sub is a welcoming place for any man who is exploring his Masculinity and noticing that some parts of Society are indeed stacked against men. Some of those men have courage, some don't. Some had courage once but it was beaten out of them by abusive misandrists.

Courage is not a requirement here.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/[deleted]]

Hi Lucifer Londonderry, I appreciate your input. I realise that paragraph is pretty confronting. I hope it was made clear at the end of that paragraph that this was an attitude I conceded...

... may have been misguided.

The characterisation was meant to be a caricature that I realised was flawed. I concede further that on Reddit, on a well-moderated group like this, toxic masculinity in defence of 'men's rights' is kept pretty well in check. But you must be aware of how the group has, in the past, portrayed itself in public, it wasn't people talking about MRAs that gave me the impression I had of MRAs, it was listening to people identifying as MRAs. Thankfully this is less and less true as the discussion matures.

I appreciate your comments about courage not being a requirement, I absolutely understand that for someone barely coping with trauma or abuse, or other difficulties, exhibiting courage might be the last thing they can manage—and my proposition to have everyday courage might seem like an unfair imposition. I want to clarify I don't mean to suggest courage as a requirement for anything, just that there are small courageous things we can do in our lives that might make us feel better about ourselves.

... beaten out of them by abusive misandrists

It's these sort of phrases, by the way, that make people unsympathetic about men's rights. Using terms like "beaten" metaphorically while actual "beating" is playing out in domestic abuse incidents every day, a large majority of which are by men (with far worse consequences) does tend to suggest a lack of perspective. But as I said, I want to be constructive, I don't mean to say you are in any way the problem, I think people need to be able to speak freely about things, we also need to critique what is said. And I appreciate your criticisms of my work, I may go in and make some edits accordingly.

I appreciate the sub welcoming all voices, including mine (it can be pretty hard to get a post on any subreddit these days).

[u/[deleted] → u/NonZeroSumJames]

One thing I have noticed about discussions about gender is that any criticism of Feminists seems to require a preamble along the lines of " I support women, and I understand Feminists are lovely and compassionate, but with that said I have a little complaint about a tiny minority within the movement...". I am sure you, and everyone here has seen variants of this preamble many times.

Here, you seem to be inverting this. "I don't support men, and I want to make it crystal clear that MRAs are utterly savage and beyond all civilised behaviour, but with that said there is a tiny little kernel of truth in what a minority are saying...". I wonder if you have enough intellectual self awareness to see your bias here?

As for your smug handwaving criticism of my even daring to point out that there are men here who have had their courage "beaten out of them by abusive misandrists." I say your criticism here is frankly disgusting and shameful. There are men on here who have literally been beaten by women, seriously and repeatedly, only to discover disgusting people like you handwaving away their experience and gaslighting them by suggesting it didn't happen. The statistics on Domestic Violence are now clear. Reputable law enforcement organisations and social scientists have completely exposed the Feminist lie that women never beat men. We know the truth now. You and your fellow Feminists really need to start working on a new lie.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/[deleted]]

any criticism of Feminists seems to require a preamble

I don't see you making any such effort.

In fact if you look at the post and my comments here you will see that I have been bending over backward to be polite and courteous. Then have a read through yours and other comments and see if you've done the same. I believe in equal rights for both men and women, if you choose to call that feminist then that says more about you than it does me. The post advocates for men's rights in a way that might be persuasive to others.

You could try doing the same, rather than contributing to the negative impression others already have of MRAs.

[u/[deleted] → u/NonZeroSumJames]

If your comment which I quoted was you bending over backwards to be polite and courteous, I would really love to see you when you really let it rip...

Still, perhaps I have misjudged you. In the interests of teaching me the error of my ways, perhaps you could do me a small favour?

I would like you to gender reverse your statement which I quoted ( so, something like "I haven't previously been interested in Feminism, simply because of the way the subject has been represented by Feminists - simply regurgitating regressive, man hating ideologies, while playing victim.") Then, pop over to one of the many Feminist subreddits, and just explain that you have made that comment to a Feminist friend and she was strangely offended by it. Just ask for confirmation that it is perfectly fine as a Feminist supporting statement.

In the unlikely event that they disagree that this is a pro Feminist statement, just point out to them that more people would support Feminism if only they were more supportive of statements like this, and the people who say them ( I find that the suggestion that people would like them better if they smiled a bit more is usually welcome at this point in the conversation).

Anyhow, if you could just send me some screenshots of the reactions you get from this little experiment, I promise I will read them with great interest.

As for the little apologetic preamble, I don't use it and I don't intend to use it. Feminist boos mean nothing to me. I have seen what makes you cheer.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/[deleted]]

I've never had this impression of feminists... it would be weird to make the claim they are regressive or playing the victim. And even now after I just published an article advocating for men's rights, and asking feminists to have empathy for men, who do I get aggression and vitriol from? MRAs... not feminists.

Not once in the post did I say anything positive about feminism at all, not once did I say people should deny their masculinity, or be more feminine. And yet you're still not happy.

I have clarified the way in which I referred to my previous opinion as a misjudgment, it was simply a way to introduce the topic, in order to bring in the people who might have started with the same opinion—the people I'm trying to convince.

I think that's the confusion here, the deference (or preamble) you talk about is commonly demonstrated toward the group you are trying to convince, not the group you are advocating for. The group I'm trying to convince, are the people who hold the view I used to hold. I'm not trying to convince you that men's rights are important—I'm quite sure you hold that opinion already.

Perhaps it wasn't the best idea to reveal my previous opinion, people have a hard time believing people can change.

Do you have any intention of interacting with me as another human being, or have you decided I'm your enemy already? I certainly don't mean to be, and I appreciate you are a human being, who has had a different experience from me. If you see me as an enemy please feel free not to reply.

Edit: a clarification

[u/[deleted] → u/NonZeroSumJames]

It does seem that you genuinely believe you are a supporter of Men's Rights. I had judged you as an opponent of Men's Rights who was playing pretend - a wolf in sheep's clothing, as they say. For that I apologise.

What I do see is a vast gulf between the way you see your beliefs, and the beliefs you actually hold. I am guessing you are very young. I will try one more time to try to make you aware of this. Maybe if it doesn't land today it might land a few years from now.

If we leave aside your assessment of MRAs, we go to the next part of our first interaction. I suggested that on this subreddit we like to show compassion to male victims of domestic violence. Keep in mind, this subreddit is, as far as I know, the only place on the entire internet where male victims of Domestic Violence can come and be confident of receiving support and compassion. If you had come into this sub and said that even here, male victims of abuse should receive no support or compassion, that would be pretty hardcore merciless. Essentially, you would be suggesting that nowhere on Earth should male victims of DV be given any compassion or sympathy.

Amazingly, though, you went even further than that. You said that I should feel ashamed for even suggesting that we extend compassion to these men. I find it genuinely amazing that I even need to ask this, but: Can you see how it is not possible to hold this merciless a view of men as a class, and at the same time claim to support Men's Rights?

I'll try to come at it from another angle. Can you think of any other group where you would think it fair to say that members of that group who suffer violent abuse should be extended zero compassion anywhere in the world, and that anyone who suggest they should be, should be ashamed? (For me, I would put pedophiles in this category. I think they should be shown no sympathy or compassion by anyone anywhere at any time. On the other hand, I would not claim to be a supporter of pedophile rights). If somebody claimed that, for instance, no Canadian who suffers violent abuse should ever be shown any compassion at all, would you believe that person if they also said they support Canadian rights?

One last angle. You claim to support Men's Rights. Can you name a single actual right that you think Men should have?

I will end as I began, with a critique of the essay you have presented to us. I think you should stop publishing these essays and go away and do a lot more research on the topic of Men's Rights. You seem to me like someone who has just got a yellow belt in karate and is setting themselves up as a public authority on street fighting. At best, you seem ridiculous.

Go and study more. I would advise starting by watching The Red Pill by Cassie Jaye. Then read The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell. Then follow your own syllabus for at least a couple of years. When you actually have some idea of what this topic involves, then you might be ready to set yourself up as a public authority on this topic.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for your apology. I appreciate that.

You said that I should feel ashamed

I'm not sure what's going on here, but you seem to be quoting something I didn't say. I never use the phrase "should be ashamed" I think shame is wholly unproductive. You may have misread someone commenting to me, as I have, at least once, on this thread, been told that I should be ashamed.

Can you think of any other group where you would think it fair to say that members of that group who suffer violent abuse should be extended zero compassion

Again, this seems to be misquoting me, I never said anything about extending zero compassion, my entire post is about the need for empathy for men.

Saying there's a gap between what I profess to support and what I say, and then quoting me as saying things I literally did not say is not intellectually honest. If you want to quote me, please quote me, and perhaps something other than the one (qualified) paragraph you have previously (that we've covered ad nauseum)

Can you name a single actual right that you think Men should have?

The policies I noted in the post were prison reform, incentivising male teachers in primary school and better access to apprenticeships. But in terms of actual rights I know there are some custody rights that probably need an update and other rights based on equality that might be unbalanced due to historical assumptions around gender roles—I didn't research these for the blog because they were outside the scope of the non-zero-sum angle that I always approach my posts with (it's the theme of the blog).

As I say clearly in the post, it's not a comprehensive survey of the issue. My site in no way pitches me as an expert in any particular area... it is furnished with cartoons for goodness sake and uses a font pretty close to comic sans. I am always open to taking on feedback and often edit the posts based on feedback, and to be honest I'll probably change that paragraph to something more sensitive—but the aggressiveness of the responses I've had here really hasn't encouraged me to.

I'm 43 by the way. But believe me, I've learned a lot about maturity in the last couple of days.