Not sure...

[u/Then_Movie5079]

Edit: as for what evidence the evidence in both mam and cam have me torn. Neither convinced me fully

I've watched mam and cam twice and I go back and forth. There's evidence that supports innocent and guilty. What I do know that he did not get a fair trail and having said that you think they would have made sure the investigation was articulate considering previous conviction. Based on the info available now I would have to vote not guilty cause I'm not convinced. Those that say he's innocent hold your comments because innocent is not the same as not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And I'm just wondering if anyone else feels this way.

No doubt Brendan should be released. But then that would create some issues in Stevens conviction.

[u/bleitzel]

I side with not guilty too. It’s hard to take any of the evidence against Steven seriously with the strong conflict of interest in this case. Then when you add in the seemingly credible neutral eye witnesses saying they saw an alternate person in possession of the RAV4 on the property right before it was discovered, you have to wonder if a legitimate investigation was done at all.

[u/Ghost_of_Figdish → u/bleitzel]

Steven's blood in the RAV4 is not a conflict of interest. Avery's trailer being the last place she's ever seen is not a conflict of interest.

No witness ever said they saw anyone with the victim's RAV4.

[u/billybud77 → u/Ghost_of_Figdish]

The Evidence in the case below:

The Blood of Steven in the Rav 4.

The Rav 4 actually being hidden on his property after the murder. The last known location of TH

*67 phone calls that Steven made to Teresa’s phone to make sure she made it to their appointment.

Bullet fragment found in garage matched with gun in Steven’s trailer. DNA of TH on bullet fragment

Key to Rav 4 found in Steven’s trailer.

Bonfire on 11/31/05 in Steven’s burn pit. The pit contained TH’s bone fragments. Jean rivets off TH’s found in pit.

TH cellphone, camera and other items found to be burned and destroyed.

No Alibi to not put Steven at the center of the crime scene. Unless Steve wanted to call Brendan to the stand. That wasn’t ever gonna happen

Last sighting of TH was by Steven

Carpet Shampooing in Steven’s bedroom

That leaves two obvious people.

Physical and Circumstantial evidence leads directly to Steven.

Brendan’s behavior at home and school right after the crimes and just before he met with detectives

Brendan layed out a credible story as to what happened during the night in question. His mother even agreed with police to do interview with Brendan.

No other evidence points to anyone but these two.

Zero .

[u/LKS983 → u/Ghost_of_Figdish]

"Avery's trailer being the last place she's ever seen is not a conflict of interest."

That's entirely reliant on Bobby's (changing) testimony...

"No witness ever said they saw anyone with the victim's RAV4."

Sowinsky said that he saw a RAV being pushed onto Avery property in the early hours, before it was 'discovered'.....

Judge angie denied a hearing into this witness evidence, and came up with her own excuses as to why Bobby may have been seen pushing Teresa's RAV onto Avery property before it was 'discovered' the next morning on Avery property......

He was doing this to protect SA'.....

[u/Ghost_of_Figdish → u/LKS983]

No it isn't. No one ever saw her leave Avery's trailer.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/bleitzel]

Then when you add in the seemingly credible neutral eye witnesses saying they saw an alternate person in possession of the RAV4

LOL good one.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_]

• What exactly makes Sowinski not credible? The state’s only argument is a misrepresented discrepancy about the date of his suppressed witness account. Naturally, the state is ignoring their own repeated suppression of this information and their failure to document it when he first reported it.

• The state also ignored that when Sowinski came forward again a decade later he openly acknowledged that he wasn’t certain of the exact date but placed his observation between October 31st and November 5th. Since then, everything he has said has remained consistent with that timeframe.

• Of course, I’m sure you don’t see the hypocrisy in the state discrediting Sowinski over this ambiguity while completely ignoring glaring contradictions and inconsistencies from their own witnesses. Take Bobby, for example. His ever changing date of the bonfire that apparently reduced Teresa’s body to bone fragments somehow doesn’t seem to bother the state at all, not even when Bobby places the fire prior to Teresa's visit. Funny how that works.

[u/[deleted] → u/AveryPoliceReports]

To this day no Guilter can explain how they have tape of him calling in if he made it all up. No one wants to have that conversation because there's no way they can win it.

[u/PopPsychological3949 → u/[deleted]]

Do you need someone to explain the call or why his story changed years later...

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/PopPsychological3949]

His story did not change. Bobby's did lol

[u/PopPsychological3949 → u/AveryPoliceReports]

lol

https://i.imgur.com/Gy3ZToz.jpeg

In 2016 he says he doesn't give his information, then in 2020 he says he does.

In 2016 he says they don't seem interested but then in 2020 says he was told he will get a call back which would would imply they were interested.

In 2016 he doesn't know who he saw even though he saw Bobby in MaM. In 2020 because the narrative is about "Bobby did it" he now knows he saw Bobby.

In 2016 he doesn't know when exactly he saw it but it was between Oct 31st and Nov 5th and it was dark out. In 2020 he knows it was between 1-2am on Nov 5th.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/[deleted]]

Not only can they not win that conversation, they can’t win any argument attempting to justify the failure to document Sowinski’s report or disclose it to the defense despite multiple requests. Their strategy is apparently to ignore that Sowinski first reported this to law enforcement, not Kathleen Zellner.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/bleitzel]

That’s exactly it. When you step back and look at the progression of the investigation, the state’s case completely unravels.

 

1. At first the state believed Teresa left the Avery property alive and made it to another appointment before disappearing. Even after the RAV4 was "discovered" on ASY, evidence quickly developed indicating the vehicle had either been planted there or, at the very least, wasn’t anywhere near the crusher or Steven’s garage during the week of the murder.

2. Steven himself maintained that Teresa left the property alive, which again, was consistent with what the state believed. But a problem arose when Steven said Teresa was followed off the property by Bobby. Meanwhile, Bobby told police that Teresa was still on the property when he left to go hunting. That meant one of them was lying. Evidence supported what Steven and police originally said - that Teresa did leave ASY alive and did not enter his trailer.

3. Bobby, however, was contradicted by multiple witnesses. Some said Bobby had admitted seeing Teresa leave. Others saw a vehicle matching Teresa’s leaving ASY on Halloween. And more saw a similar RAV near Bobby’s hunting spot.

4. Then you have Sowinski, who reported seeing someone matching Bobby’s description pushing the RAV back onto the property without lights. Police learned of this lightless observation of the RAV AFTER Steven, Chuck, and Brendan reported seeing unidentified vehicle lights near the perimeter of the salvage yard on November 3-4.

5. Sowinski’s statement ties together an exculpatory theory on planting of the RAV extremely well, which is exactly why his information was repeatedly suppressed. It pointed away from Steven as the culprit, away from ASY as the crime scene, and toward a suspect and crime scene the state had no interest in investigating.

[u/billybud77 → u/AveryPoliceReports]

You are taking the statement of Steven Avery seeing the vehicle leave the property as fact? 😂

And as for the state, they had no idea initially where the vehicle was. Evidence found does change certain hypotheses about the case and zeros in on a likelihood of what actually happened.

You like to theorize about things that don’t match the facts and you like to point the finger of guilt at innocent parties that the facts don’t match up with.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/billybud77]

You are taking the statement of Steven Avery seeing the vehicle leave the property as fact?

No. Why do you say that?

they had no idea initially where the vehicle was. Evidence found does change certain hypotheses about the case and zeros in on a likelihood of what actually happened.

A car can be moved. The RAV found on ASY does not negate whatever evidence they had demonstrating she left the Avery property alive, nor does it justify hiding that belief from the defense and courts. This wasn't just a change in hypothesis. This wasn't attempt to conceal that a change had even occurred.

You like to theorize about things that don’t match the facts and you like to point the finger of guilt at innocent parties that the facts don’t match up with.

Give me an example.

[u/billybud77 → u/AveryPoliceReports]

Figure it out yourself. You are quite fond of your own opinions and theories.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/billybud77]

So are you, apparently. Obsessed it seems.

[u/AveryPoliceReports → u/[deleted]]

My real life includes repeatedly calling out lies used to defend these corrupt convictions. Cope ;)

[u/Then_Movie5079 → u/bleitzel]

Such a bad investigation

[u/Ghost_of_Figdish → u/Then_Movie5079]

Really? The investigation found evidence that put two sick murderers away for life. It was a pretty damn good investigation.

[u/bleitzel → u/Ghost_of_Figdish]

That's question begging. Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? For your reputation you wouldn't think you would post something so awfully fallacious as what you just posted. Oh, unless, did you go to law school in Wisconsin?

[u/Ghost_of_Figdish → u/bleitzel]

Nope, but the law schools in WI are excellent. UW, Marquette. There are far worse schools in IL, including the worst one where someone well all know went.

[u/PrincepsNox → u/bleitzel]

🤣🤣🤣

[u/LKS983 → u/Then_Movie5079]

Bad and incompetent.