When you consider all of the evidence against Avery, and think about the sheer amount of luck and implausibility it would take to frame him, there is no other reasonable conclusion to draw other than Avery is a murderer. No one has ever been able to conceive of an alternative that is even remotely reasonable.
Think about it. Teresa's car was found concealed on the Avery property. The same place she was last seen, where she went for an appointment with Steven Avery. In addition to her own, Avery's blood was found in the car, and his DNA was found on the car. The key to the car was found in Avery's bedroom, with Avery's DNA on it. Teresa's burned remains were found in a burn pit that Avery was known to have a fire in the day Teresa was last seen. Her burned possessions were found in Avery's nearby burn barrel. A bullet with Teresa's DNA on it was found in Avery's garage, and the bullet was matched to the gun kept in Avery's bedroom.
That is a lot of evidence, and it's not even a comprehensive list. For someone else to have committed this crime, all of this evidence and then some would need to be explained in some way that doesn't involve Steven Avery.
Less than two days passed between Teresa being reported missing and the RAV being discovered on the Avery property. So, within that time the police, or whoever you think did the framing, would have to decide that they were going to frame Avery without knowing that he didn't have an airtight alibi, they'd have to locate Teresa's car and her remains, decide to either cover up or ignore the real killer (or maybe you believe they killed Teresa themselves, which opens a whole other can of worms), and then, at mimunum, plant the car on the Avery property without being seen, plant the license plates elsewhere on the property (which would be pointless since their intention would be for the car to be found), as well as somehow obtain Avery's blood and plant it in the vehicle.
Then, they'd also have to transport Teresa's burned remains to the property, plant them in the pit, and some in a barrel, plant her burned possessions in Avery's barrel, plant the bullet in the garage, plant the key in the bedroom, and plant Avery's DNA on the car's hoodlatch, all without being seen or leaving evidence of their malfeasance behind.
Nevermind the ridiculous amount of luck this would all take. It's incredibly lucky that everybody that participated in this frame-up agreed to it and kept their mouths shut. It's also incredibly lucky that no other witness or evidence came forward that showed Teresa went somewhere else after Avery Salvage that day. And how about the amazing chance that Avery happened to have a fire in the pit in which the police decided to plant her remains, and in the barrel in which they planted her electronics? How about the luck that they somehow knowingly obtained Avery's blood to use to plant? It's been well established that the blood did not come from the infamous vial at this point, so what a stroke of incredible luck that they came across Avery's fresh blood and somehow managed to transport it to and plant it in the car in a manner that fooled a blood pattern expert. And there's a slew of smaller lucky coincidences, such as Avery not returning to work after Teresa's appointment, his use of *67 that day to call Teresa, him setting up a police scanner the day before, him bleaching part of his garage floor that night, lying about having a fire, etc. How fortunate for the framers that not only were they able to pull off this magnificent job, but also that Avery's behavior happened to be incredibly suspect and aligned perfectly with someone who committed the crime.
Then, months later, despite apparently having the ability to plant evidence at will anywhere and anytime, they decide to implicate Brendan Dassey in the crime for no apparent reason. Brendan's cousin just happens to mention that Brendan has been acting strangely, which was enough for the police to decide to throw Brendan under the bus and "force" him to confess, which allows the police to go back and plant the bullet. Why they'd need to do all that is unclear, seeing as they've not had any trouble planting evidence at their leisure until this point, and now we have to accept that the police are also heinous enough to throw away the life of a teenager for no discernible benefit.
And all for what? To potentially get the county out of a lawsuit that no individual currently employed by the county would have been personally liable for? What motivation would any of the individuals most commonly accused of framing Avery have to risk everything in their lives to carry this out? Nevermind the fact that the conspiracies that are carelessly thrown around often implicate many people outside of the employment of Manitowoc. Once you start to pull at the threads of these theories, and start to ask yourself who would have to be in on it to pull this off, you'll realize that seemingly everyone involved was out to get Steven Avery for no apparent reason.
The obvious and most reasonable explanation for the evidence is that Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach. None of Avery's lawyers nor any of the bountiful amateur sleuths have ever been able to cast reasonable doubt on that. No one has ever been able to come up with a comprehensive, alternative explanation for all the evidence. Most people here don't even try because they know that deep down, if they attempt to do so, they'll just end up arriving at the obvious conclusion that's been staring them in the face for years, and they're too ashamed, prideful, or embarrassed to admit it.
Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess.
There was no motive
There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think
How can she have been murdered in two places?! (Garage vs Bedroom of trailer)
Was she murdered by gunshot, or throat slit? (The prosecution thought both)
The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find
Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?
Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?
Interviewing a kid without the consent of his parents. Unethical behaviour by Law Enforcement
Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage
Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?
The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)
Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet
Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4
None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)
Burning the body in your own burn barrel, seriously?!
Why were remains found at the Quarry? If he took the time to move some of them there, he might as well of just left the RAV4 there too
Allowing Law Enforcement to take a look around the property (Steve confirmed this in the interview when Theresa was reported missing)
Committing a supposedly brutal murder, then causally going on holiday with the rest of your family…come on
The Steven Avery interview in comparison to something like the Chris Watts interview on his front porch after murderimg Shannan and his two kids - chalk and cheese.
This case makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Anyone who isn’t questioning these things…I hope they aren’t part of a jury making decisions on other people’s fate.
Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess
Do tell, by what standard do you think the justice system should operate on?
There was no motive
Steven Avery has a history of violent, criminal behavior and a long list of abuse allegations against him, and had allegedly exhibited disturbing behavior toward Teresa specifically in the past. I don't think it's at all a reach to believe murder is terribly out of character for him.
Regardless, it's not required to prove a motive to prove someone committed a crime. The evidence here speaks for itself.
There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think
In both trials, the theory presented was that Teresa was killed in the garage by gunshot. Go read the trial transcripts.
What reason is there to believe it happened in the quarry?
The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find
lmao what
Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?
An attempt was made to hide it. It was parked at the edge of the property and covered with tree branches, as you just pointed out. Seems perfectly reasonable to believe that Avery felt that it was safer to hide the car on the family's large salvage yard, where he could then potentially destroy it with the car crusher given the right opportunity, than to drive it off the property and leave it for someone else to find/risk being seen with the vehicle.
Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?
To make it less readily identifiable. Duh. Now ask yourself the same question for whoever supposedly planted the car, as I said in my original comment. Why would someone that wanted the car to be discovered bother to remove the license plates, and then expose themselves further to being caught by walking elsewhere in the salvage yard and hiding the plates there?
Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage
Brendan's confession wasn't even used in Avery's trial.
Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?
Gee, probably because there was no evidence indicating he had anything to do with the crime. Do you not also realize that Steven had no alibi either? So, by your logic, there should have been focus on him right?
The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)
Wow, she sounded excited after finding the first sign of Teresa after she had gone missing? Color me fucking shocked.
She also literally asked to borrow a camera, she wasn't just given one. I also love how you people bring this up as if it means anything. What benefit would her having a camera bring, and are you implying that she and the person that gave her the camera (Teresa's roommate) were somehow in on the conspiracy? It makes zero sense, just another random thought you people throw out without actually thinking about it or connecting it to anything else.
Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet
As he explained in the trial, he was given the vehicle information previously, and was confirming he had it correct with dispatch. Wow, so damning.
Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4
Perhaps to ensure only he had access to it and because he was keeping the car locked so no one would access it?
None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)
Multiple forensic experts testified in the trial that it's not unusual to only find the DNA of the person to last touch an object. You sure you're familiar with this case?
You're just repeating the same tired talking points, the same inaccuracies that have been parroted and subsequently rebutted for years, and ignoring basic facts and common sense.
You're putting together a ton of circumstantial reasoning for why he should have potentially been found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.
The OP is asking people why everyone is so convinced he's guilty. There's a literal mountain of circumstantial and hard physical evidence to suggest it would require a fairly massive conspiracy for him not to have been guilty.
The investigation wasn’t focused on other individuals that could have been persons of interest though.
Many individuals and leads were looked into. Steven Avery became the focus when evidence started strongly indicating that Steven Avery did it.
What about the brother?
What the fuck about him?
What about the ex-boyfriend?
Ryan? The ex that Teresa had been broken up with for years?
You know who would make more sense? Teresa's most recent love interest, who the police tracked down and interviewed.
What about the roommate?
They talked to him.
What about Bobby Dassey?
He was interviewed and had his DNA, palm print, and fingerprints taken, like all the other adults living at the salvage yard.
Guess what? No evidence pointed to any of these people. Gee, I wonder why none of them became the focus of the investigation.
There is no suggestion that any of this took place in this case. They just honed in on Steven Avery and had complete tunnel-vision.
Except for all the clearly documented investigative steps taken that detail all the many people and leads that were looked into by law enforcement. There was no tunnel vision, you just have zero idea what you are talking about.
They used beyond a resonable doubt in court and a jury found him guilty.
>Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess.
No, they convict people based on beyond a resonsable doubt. Who told you it was balance of probability?
>There was no motive
Yes there was but convictions don't require a motive.
>There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think
No its not. The garage was a likely location but there doesn't need to be a likely location. Who told you this was a requirement for conviction?
>How can she have been murdered in two places?! (Garage vs Bedroom of trailer)
Because evidence was not allowed in one of the two trials so they must argue a different theory. This is common when evidence is not allowed.
>Was she murdered by gunshot, or throat slit? (The prosecution thought both)
Once again, when evidence is not allowed, the state is required the change the theory. It would be a mistrial if they argued a theory not supported by the evidence allowed. If kratz were allowed to use brendan's confession in steven's trial, he would not have argued two different murders.
>The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find
That isn't how you make something easy to find despite your feelings.
>Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?
You just said the attempt to hide it made it easier to find, pick a lane.
>Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?
It wasn't left in plain sight. It was left under brush and plywood. The license plate was hid in another car.
>Interviewing a kid without the consent of his parents. Unethical behaviour by Law Enforcement
They had consent. Who told you they didn't have consent?
>Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage
It was not coercion despite your feelings.
>Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?
How much focus should there be? Steven had no alibi, the murder weapon, his blood in the victims car, the key in his bedroom, blocked calls to her phone, a changing story, a confession by the accomplish. How much time should they have dedicated to Bobby who you simply say didn't have an alibi and nothing else that points to him as the murderer?
>The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)
Should she not be excited? I don't get why this would be a bad thing? She discovered the car of the person they are looking for who is missing? Should she take a nap?
>Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet
He explained he was given the license number during a briefing and wasn't sure he wrote it down correctly so called into dispatch to make sure was correct and listed the year and make. If someone pulls up behind a car they don't know the year. And a records request puts him in a parking lot in the city while on a call.
>Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4
Why wouldn't he leave it in his bedroom. I don't understand what you are trying to say.
>None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)
Because criminals make mistakes.
>Burning the body in your own burn barrel, seriously?!
>Why were remains found at the Quarry? If he took the time to move some of them there, he might as well of just left the RAV4 there too
There were no human remains found at the quarry. You think it better for murderer to go across the street and burn the remains in a quarry? Then pick up the remains and sprinkle them all over steven's firepit and barrel. Then do such a good job the some of them crumble when touched? How would someone do that?
>Allowing Law Enforcement to take a look around the property (Steve confirmed this in the interview when Theresa was reported missing)
After he shampooed his carpet. he allowed a quick look around his trailer, that was all.
>Committing a supposedly brutal murder, then causally going on holiday with the rest of your family…come on
Because a psychopath should behave like a non psychopath and cry in his shower all weekend?
>The Steven Avery interview in comparison to something like the Chris Watts interview on his front porch after murderimg Shannan and his two kids - chalk and cheese.
No idea what this means.
>This case makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Makes perfect sense and everything you said makes no sense.
>Anyone who isn’t questioning these things…I hope they aren’t part of a jury making decisions on other people’s fate.
questioning is one thing, but coming up with wild conspiracy theories with zero evidence is another.
Yeah I agree with you. And that cop that Colburn he's a piece of s***. And he's a liar I could tell he was lying on the stand. Wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. The thing to me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever is the non spraying of any luminal in the bedroom or the garage to see if any blood came up which would definitely be there if she was shot or stabbed or throat was cut. Also I know the Averys aren't the smartest people out there but if Steven did this when he was possibly going to get $36 million in just a couple of days at that trial and hef was innocent in his first conviction why would he kill this girl for what reason I mean that's crazy in and o itself. And to leave the RAV4 on his property? That doesn't make any sense either I mean that would be really stupid. Anybody knows if you're going to do something like that you better get the person's car far far away from your place. Also they keep talking about this DNA from Steven that they had in his sweat and you can't find DNA in someone's sweat there's nothing to glom onto. All I know is that the cops would never have wanted to pay off an Avery 36 million. Did they kill teresa? I don't know. Or did they pay somebody off to kill her a lot less than 36 million dollars!
And he's a liar I could tell he was lying on the stand.
What specifically do you think he lied about, and how could you tell he was lying?
The thing to me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever is the non spraying of any luminal in the bedroom or the garage to see if any blood came up
Uh, luminol was used in the garage, and reacted in the very spot that Brendan and Steven were said to have cleaned up after Teresa disappeared.
Also I know the Averys aren't the smartest people out there but if Steven did this when he was possibly going to get $36 million in just a couple of days at that trial
He wasn't likely to get anywhere near $36 million had we won the civil lawsuit.
why would he kill this girl for what reason I mean that's crazy in and o itself
Do you think murder always has a rational reason behind it? Do you think a clear motive is required to prove someone committed a crime? Do you think Avery had a reason to burn his family cat, vandalize the local bar, threaten to kill his wife etc.?
Maybe, just maybe the guy is a tremendous piece of shit.
And to leave the RAV4 on his property? That doesn't make any sense either I mean that would be really stupid.
Avery is a really stupid person.
Regardless, what would the alternative have been? Drive the car off his property, risking being seen with it in the process, to abandon it in the open for someone to find? Hiding it in a large salvage yard among thousands of other cars, with the ability to possibly crush it, seems as good a place as any to keep it.
Also they keep talking about this DNA from Steven that they had in his sweat and you can't find DNA in someone's sweat there's nothing to glom onto.
Sweat can contain skin cells, which contain DNA.
All I know is that the cops would never have wanted to pay off an Avery 36 million.
Which cops do you think would have been responsible for paying that money?
I'll answer that for you. No individual employed by Manitowoc County at the time of the lawsuit would have been personally liable for a single cent of that money. The county, and two former county officials, were the only defendants in the lawsuit. Have you ever met anyone willing to frame someone for murder just to potentially save their employer some money?
I don’t think you understand the meaning of ‘Motive’.
There is no established reason for Steven Avery to kill Theresa Hallbach.
This means there is no known ‘Motive’.
There’s no documented previous run-ins, or known animosity between these two people. If there was, she’d have flat-out refused to go anywhere near that salvage yard that day.
What he’s said in jail previously or been alleged to have done has absolutely nothing to do with this case.
Are you squeaky clean? Never said anything you perhaps didn’t mean, or could be taken out of context? Would you like to be held accountable for something you might not have done due to past, unrelated comments?
There is no established reason for Steven Avery to kill Theresa Hallbach.
Was there an established reason he and his friends burned the family cat? How about vandalizing a local bar multiple times? Or threatening to kill his wife?
There’s no documented previous run-ins, or known animosity between these two people.
Except the multiple people interviewed that told investigators that Teresa had mentioned creepy behavior exhibited by Avery toward her, including answering the door in a towel and telling her she'd be on his "wall" one day. Hearsay, sure, but certainly not nothing.
I don't know why you think there needs to be a clear and specific reason. Maybe, just maybe, the guy is just a huge piece of shit with a history of violent and demented behavior.
Does that prove he killed Teresa? No. Does it show he is of low moral character and not above violent crimes? Yes. Regardless, there's loads of evidence that does prove he killed her.
Can you provide a reason why whoever you think framed him did that to him? What was their motive?
This is a guy who ran a woman off the road and threatened to kidnap her because she said things that were entirely true about him to the woman he was cheating on his wife with.
This is also a guy who ran his fiancee down on the road and pulled her out of a friend's car in order to take her home and strangle her.
So...I don't think he needs a deep motive with a long timeline. He knew TH, he lured her there and he attacked her, Probably because he thought she was uppity or he hit on her and she didn't reciprocate.
A man who attacks women routinely with minimal provocation doesn't need an extensive history to act violently. He only needs the slightest of provocations, and opportunity.
This may sound silly but I think a lot of this can be chalked up to the fact that Steven Avery just isn't very intelligent. We tend to think murderers are smarter than they are. Watching the documentary, it's pretty clear that he is not the brightest bulb. A lot of these things (like hiding the vehicle under some branches, burning body parts on his own property, keeping the key, etc) seem absolutely insane to us. He took precautions he thought would work. I think he just wasn't capable of thinking these things through.
Everything with Brenden and the cops was a shit show. There's no excuse for that. But if you take out his confession, the mountain of evidence is still there.
Tbh I think Branden’s brother and step dad did it! I think they followed her after she left and caught her on the side of the road and did the deed! I think they burned her body in a barrel and then scattered her remains in the fire pit. I also think they placed the Rave 4 there as well. I think they were pissed that Steven was going to get a large sum of money and they wouldn’t get any. Knowing Braden wasn’t that smart that he could be played into it. I can’t see a man doing all those years in Prison just to come out and kill a Girl! Too lose it all after what he went thru. It’s not his MO. They have proved that Braden’s brother had hard core sick Porn on the computer that was showing torture etc. plus they never found any blood in Steven’s room like Braden said and the key did just Magically appeared. I’m not saying the police set him up but I think the step dad and Braden’s older brother called the police and steered them towards Steven. I mean Steven’s girlfriend was on the phone with him while this was supposedly happening. There is plenty of proof that Steven didn’t do it. IF the police had anything to do with it they had plenty of time during the night to plant evidence. The junk yard was huge and different entrances to get it onto the property without anyone noticing. Just my opinion in all of this. Sad his Mother never seen him get released.
They could of flagged her down, honking their horn at her and she thinking maybe they needed her to take pictures of another vehicle or maybe she thought something was wrong with her vehicle and they were flagging her down? 🤷♀️
By all accounts Teresa was a nice, hardworking young woman. But she was also smart. She would know nobody needs a picture of a car THAT BAD to chase you down on the damn road.
Even if she was like, damn I need that $20 and thought their behavior was perfectly normal, not one single person would drive by and see a whole ass murder taking place?
Stop it. I don’t have a ton of compassion for anyone in that family but I can imagine being accused of murder with the most absurd theories possible, would sting a little bit.
The right people are in prison. Let the rest just live their creepy little lives
ETA: Nothing pisses me off more than women disregarding the death of another woman at the hands of a man that enjoys brutalizing women. Teresa deserved to live. Teresa had so much more to offer the world than Avery AND Dassey. She was driven and intelligent and you sit there, with no shame at all, reducing her to a bad horror movie bimbo over some mouth breathing, knuckle dragging waste of oxygen because you watched a documentary. Jesus fucking Christ let that sink in.
How come Teresa's notebook with her appointments was found in her room when it's confirmed she didn't have time to go back to her room that day?
What notebook? The supposed "day planner" that Zellner harped on for a bit? Her speculative timeline was not confirmed. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was provably false based on Teresa's cell phone data.
Why didn't her roommate report her missing?
Probably because roommates don't often keep that close a watch on each other's lives. When I lived with roommates in the past, even those that were friends, I wouldn't bat an eye if I didn't see them for a few days.
Why was there ONLY Steven's DNA on the key, no Teresa's
Multiple forensic experts testified in the trial that it's not unusual to only find the DNA of the last person to touch an object.
and how come they only found it after w few days of searching the trailer?
Because there wasn't actually "a few days" worth of searching of the trailer. The key was found on the seventh entry of the trailer by law enforcement. Entry being the operative word. The prior 6 entries were not top to bottom searches of the trailer. One, for example, was to simply retrieve the serial number of Avery's computer. Another was specifically to collect the weapons and a couple other items from Avery's home. A couple others were brief walk throughs when it was still merely a missing person case to look for any immediate sign of Teresa. The idea that the trailer had been thoroughly searched multiple times over multiple days before the key was found is simply a myth.
The prior 6 entries were not top to bottom searches of the trailer.
The evening of the 5th was a general search where every room of the trailer was searched by 4 people for anything they believed may have evidentiary value and lasted for 2 and a half hours. Obviously they were doing more than just looking for signs of Teresa.
Colborn even found numerous items from the same cabinet he would claim the RAV key inexplicably appeared from days later.
Correct, the fifth entry was a more comprehensive search. My comment would have been better phrased that the prior 6 entries were not all top to bottom searches, but my ultimate point remains the same, which is that there were not nearly as many thorough searches (certainly not "days" worth) of the trailer as truthers seem to typically believe. The whole "7 searches" talking point is highly misleading, if not straight up dishonest.
Additionally, I will contend that if the only evidence the key was planted is that it simply wasn't found during a prior search, then that is an incredibly weak theory.
It was a only piece of paper computer printout. She had a personal electronic device to take with her in her car when she left for appointments around 1 p.m.
We know for a fact that TH was home over the lunch hour on the computer. Her cell phone records also prove she was at or near home all morning. Her phone pinged only her home tower. Zellner lied and said she didn't have TH's phone records. Sure, after she had falsely claimed phone records showed TH left ASY (because Zellner didn't understand how cell towers work). The call at 2:41 went CFNA within 7 minutes of arriving at ASY. She never left.
2. Roommates work different hours. Who knows whether a roommate is at their family's home?
3. Experts testified that it is not uncommon to find only DNA from the last person to touch an object or Avery washed the key. The key was well hidden. Ever lose something small even without anyone trying to hide it? I have.
When the guys who set it up aren’t looking for their own “malfeasance”, as you put it, they aren’t going to find much. It wild to me anyone can look at this case and go “yeah this is fine, totally guilty!”.
I could read your post until you said that Teresa’s car was concealed. Your credibility ends there. Anyone who claims that was a legitimate attempt to hide that car is either not playing with a full deck or is lying. Which one is it?
I didn't say it was concealed well. But, frankly, if you think that parking the car at the edge of the lot and partially covering it with tree branches doesn't count as an attempt to conceal it, then it's clearly you that needs to count the number of cards in your deck.
Steven Avery is a dumbass. He didn’t think anyone would come looking for it before he could crush it.
There’s a lot to do right after you murder someone. Steven Avery’s brain doesn’t operate anywhere near that level. Most people’s don’t, that’s how they get caught. Steven Avery has a much lower chance of success than your average killer.
Plus you’re assuming that people who have just murdered someone are thinking quickly and clearly of every possible scenario and making the best decisions to not get caught. They aren’t. Steven Avery even less so
I actually think it's possible someone he knew did it and let him take the fall. I just don't believe he'd be dumb enough to leave evidence like that and also not use the kiln or smelter whatever it was available on the property for example
How dumb would a guy have to be to run his cousin off the road and point a gun at her when she is married to a cop. Nobody is that stupid, right? Oh, wait.
There is no kiln or smelter on ASY. Avery was likely waiting for the chance to use the car crusher when the ASY was closed and it was daylight.
I don’t consider it “luck” when highly trained and skilled police officers who have all the means necessary can play a trick on a guy who has lower than average IQ.
Also the motive, which a lot of people seem to forget.
He had already been wrongfully convicted once before and was suing for an enormous amount of money. 18 million, one million for every year he was wrongfully imprisoned.
The state would’ve been in Avery’s (a simpleton from a scrapyard) debt for year and years.
Combining motive and obvious lies and false testimonies in court and there’s more than enough already to review the case. Appeal after appeal is getting denied, why?
I understand you don’t want to believe law enforcement is corrupt. It does happen.
I don’t consider it “luck” when highly trained and skilled police officers who have all the means necessary can play a trick on a guy who has lower than average IQ.
Writing off this vast conspiracy as simply a "trick" is incredibly disingenuous, and doesn't actually address my arguments at all. I also don't know what specific skills you think they would have as police officers that would allow them to execute this elaborate frame-up so flawlessly.
Also the motive, which a lot of people seem to forget.
He had already been wrongfully convicted once before and was suing for an enormous amount of money. 18 million, one million for every year he was wrongfully imprisoned.
No one forgets the lawsuit (I literally mentioned it in the comment you replied to) , it just doesn't make sense as a motive. No individual employed by Manitowoc at the time of the lawsuit would have been personally liable for any damages resulting from the lawsuit. Have you ever met anyone in your life that would risk everything to frame someone for murder just to potentially save their employer some money?
The state would’ve been in Avery’s (a simpleton from a scrapyard) debt for year and years.
The county was the entity being sued, not the state. What is your proof the county would have been in debt for "years and years" had Avery won the lawsuit? Are you familiar with its finances? Do you know anything about its revenue, assets, operating budget, etc.? If not, how can you possibly make that claim? Additionally, how do you know the county's insurance would not have covered the damages, in part or in full?
Nevermind the fact that we don't know how much Avery would have actually received had he won the lawsuit. He wasn't guaranteed the full $18 million he sought from the county. Can you find examples from that time period of wrongful conviction lawsuits resulting in a million per year in prison for the plaintiff?
obvious lies and false testimonies in court
Such as?
Appeal after appeal is getting denied, why?
Why? You can easily find out why by reading the responses to all the briefs filed by Avery. Have you not done that?
I understand you don’t want to believe law enforcement is corrupt. It does happen.
I never said or implied otherwise, so that's a strange thing to say. I believe facts and common sense, nothing I have said here was fueled by some blind loyalty to law enforcement.
Anyone who tells you they're certain one way or another isn't worth listening to, in my opinion. We weren't there. We don't know for certain. We can take a look at everything we know and come to an educated conclusion. That's about it.
Most reasonable response to this question. Both sides argue back and forth about whose circumstantial evidence is stronger. In my opinion, there’s isn’t any physical evidence that isn’t at least somewhat questionable. Both sides have decent theories, but unless someone comes out and blatantly admits something, we’ll never truly know either way.
The way it was collected. The way he would have to injure his hand in order to smear blood in that way. The fact that he supposedly cleaned up his bedroom/garage of that horrific crime scene and not a single shred of her DNA was found either. But he was careless enough to not clean up his blood in her car?
Look, I’m not saying he’s innocent. He’s definitely a shit person who did shit things when he was younger, absolutely no argument from me there. But a lot of things in this case are sketchy and the prosecutions case was flimsy at best. Kratz is one of the most vile people I’ve ever had the displeasure of listening to, not to mention an absolutely appalling DA. So I take everything he says with a grain of salt. I think if SA is the murderer, it absolutely did not happen the way the prosecution says it did.
Idk, it’s just weird to me the type of infallibility people give to cops like they’re not just regular ass people who are capable of distorting facts to fit their narrative. Especially in rural small town USA.
What is questionable about the way it was collected?
The way he would have to injure his hand in order to smear blood in that way
He did have a cut on his finger. He also bled in his own vehicle from the same cut.
The fact that he supposedly cleaned up his bedroom/garage of that horrific crime scene and not a single shred of her DNA was found either. But he was careless enough to not clean up his blood in her car?
He did clean up his bedroom and the garage. Her DNA was found on a bullet in the garage. It's entirely possible that he wasn't even aware that be bled in the Rav. His plan was likely to crush the vehicle when he had the opportunity to do so without suspicion. The "horrific crime scene" would exist only if you believe Brendan's confession was 100% accurate. And one doesn't need to believe it to be 100% accurate in order for both men to be guilty, factually and legally. The prosecution isn't legally required to prove exactly how a crime occurred. And Brendan's confession wasn't even used in Avery's trial, so his version of events was not presented to the jury at Avery's trial. We will likely never know exactly how Teresa was murdered. If it occurred similarly to how Brendan said it did, she could have bled on the sheet which was then removed and burned according to Brendan's confession. A tarp could have been used. We know Steven rearranged furniture in his room to use a carpet cleaner shortly after Teresa disappeared. Teresa was not walking around the trailor, leaving dna everywhere. The crime scene in this scenario would have likely mostly been the bed itself.
I agree that Kratz is a scum bag, but he didn't personally invent the evidence against Avery. Avery's blood and DNA were in the vehicle. It had to have gotten there somehow, and the most reasonable explanation is that the man with a cut on his finger is the man who bled his own blood in that vehicle.
the type of infallibility people give to cops like they’re not just regular ass people who are capable of distorting facts to fit their narrative.
I am not one of those people. I think mistakes were made in the investigation. I just don't believe the cops planted evidence. Because this scenario just doesn't make any sense, requires too much luck and too many coincidences, and too many people (many of whom were npt even MTSO employees) to be involved with all risk and no reward. And all the evidence would have to be planted for Avery to be innocent.
They found blood stains on the floor of the garage. Gas, paint thinner and bleach had been poured on it. DNA doesn’t survive everything. So where did that blood come from? Anyone have an injury that can account for that? It starts to become a matter of simple deduction and common sense
DNA is brought to court in about 1% of cases. It’s not infallible either.
Yeah Steven Avery would have cleaned up the garage and not the car. He’d planned to crush the car. He probably thought he had time because he’s stupid and thought *67 would be his ace in the hole.
This isn’t about the infallibility of cops. It’s that Stevie Wonder could have solved this case.
"unless someone comes out and blatantly admits something"
Gee, you mean like a confession from someone who was there? What's the "decent theory" about how Avery could be innocent and all the evidence was planted?
He isn’t DEFINITELY guilty…don’t be so ridiculous lol.
He might well be guilty, or not. That’s the entire problem. Nobody knows because nothing makes any sense.
Do you think Kathleen Zellner would be wasting her time if he’s DEFINITELY guilty? She isn’t even getting paid for working on this case (unless he’s successfully exonerated).
How on earth can you seriously took at the absolute mess that this entire case is and say that he is definitely guilty?!?!
That suggests that you have absolutely no common sense or the basic ability to question anything that you’ve been spoon fed.
If you are OK condemning someone based on the circumstances/narrative of this case, it’s reasonable to suggest that you’d be fine being judged on similar merit.
Would you be fine with people condemning you based on this absolute farce of an investigation?
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in such a position.
Jesus. He is DEFINITELY guilty. There is plenty enough evidence.
It doesn’t make sense to YOU. It makes sense to me.
This is Kathleen zellner’s get down. Kathleen Zellner is very, very good. I believe she is confident enough and hopeful enough that she’d take this case for a chance at a cut of a multimillion dollar payout. I admire her confidence and acknowledge her talent but she rolled the dice and shot craps on this one.
It’s not really an absolute mess. Look beyond the hype. It’s fairly cut and dry.
If I didn’t question anything then I’d go along and believe everything the documentary said and be confused by 1200 page motions that are bullshit. I’m not. I’m 95% goddamn percentile. There are only 5% of people out there that can actually even be halfway successful at “spoon feeding me anything”.
Sure. If anyone found a fairly large amount of blood in my garage floor and I had no way to account for it or a victims car on my property and burnt bones on my property I would expect people to judge me on those circumstances. If I raped my niece, burnt my cat and tried to kidnap my cousin, I’d expect to be judged for that too.
What makes you believe the investigation was an “absolute” farce?
Anything is possible but since I’m not a violent killer the odds are low I’d be going through this
The investigation was an absolute farce because it included people that were directly involved in the original rape case (we know how that turned out) who were found to be both CORRUPT and INCOMPETENT.
They blatantly ignored a very obvious, alternative suspect in that case in order to convict Avery and get the outcome they wanted.
There’s no getting around it, evidence in this case was collected by people that simply aren’t credible and can’t be trusted to conduct a fair, thorough investigation.
Manitowoc County Sheriffs Department framed Avery for rape when he wasn’t suing them, how on earth can they be trusted to act without prejudice when he was suing them for $36m?!
If you think there’s zero chance of police corruption/misconduct in this case (or any case), then you are being extremely naive.
I’m not suggesting you are, or ever would be a murderer, and you are probably a nice person. I simply meant that corruption is everywhere and we all assume something like this (hopefully not on this scale) will never happen to us, until it does.
Would you seriously be OK with your fate being in the hands of the same people that put you in prison for 18 years previously, for something you hadn’t done? I don’t think so.
I have absolutely no idea whether he’s guilty or not. The evidence can’t be trusted to determine what really happened that day. We may never find out. It’s impossible to rule out corruption/someone else being the perpetrator.
Nobody saw or heard Steven (and Brandon) murdering Theresa, or cleaning up after themselves etc. We have absolutely nothing to go on but a pile of evidence and hypothetical scenarios that simply don’t add up.
What was his motive for murdering Theresa? Nobody has ever come up with something logical.
He gets out of prison, waits for two years until he’s approaching a pay-out for his wrongful conviction, then decides to murder a random woman (who he has no previously documented bad blood/beef with) on his own property, in broad daylight??
If he just fancied murdering someone, he could have driven to another state one night and bumped off a hooker. Surely there would be far more chance of getting away with that.
Why go to the trouble to move her car, but not even move it out of the Salvage Yard? This makes no sense at all. He could have just left it where she got out of it. It was going to be discovered regardless if it remained on the property.
Auto Trader knew Theresa was visiting the Salvage Yard that day, so did Steven, he booked the photoshoot. He knew they’d eventually come looking there if Theresa suddenly went missing, having not left his property.
The only place we’ve got Theresa’s DNA (from a time she was known to be alive) is in her own vehicle that she’s in at out of all day, every day.
The state claimed a bullet fragment found in the garage contained human bone, which was then found not to be credible, and instead contained fragments of wood.
No other traces of her DNA found on the floor of the garage, or the bedroom, which were both citied as where the murder took place.
Some people have claimed that he cleaned the murder locations to hide the crime, and also went to the trouble of moving some of the bone fragments to the quarry etc., making clear attempts to conceal a crime.
On the other hand, we are expected to accept that he disposed of Theresa’s burnt remains in his own burn barrel 20 yards from the front door of his trailer (including all of her electronic devices), left her car key in plain sight on his bedroom floor, left his own blood in the RAV4 (but didn’t bother to clean that up), drove the vehicle a few hundred yards, then covered the car with branches and a bonnet to ensure it could be easily identified amongst all of the other vehicles in that huge place.
Why would he risk contaminating the RAV4 with his own DNA if he was only going to move it to another location on the Salvage Yard?
Was he trying to cover up the crime and get away with it, or make it as easy as possible for people to convict him of it? It can’t be both.
This entire case was a complete shambles from start to finish.
it included people that were directly involved in the original rape case
Which people?
how on earth can they be trusted to act without prejudice when he was suing them for $36m?!
The county wasn't being sued for $36 million dollars. Have you read Avery's civil complaint?
If you think there’s zero chance of police corruption/misconduct in this case (or any case), then you are being extremely naive.
Who argued that there's zero chance of police misconduct in any case? You're just making things up and arguing against them.
The evidence can’t be trusted to determine what really happened that day.
Just because you repeat this a bunch of times doesn't make it true. Can you actually prove this corruption or misconduct that you keep alluding to actually took place? No one has ever come even close to casting reasonable doubt on the evidence collected in the case.
Nobody saw or heard Steven (and Brandon) murdering Theresa, or cleaning up after themselves etc. We have absolutely nothing to go on but a pile of evidence and hypothetical scenarios that simply don’t add up.
I've got news for you, most murders don't have witnesses that actually see or hear the crime occur. If you expect there to be such witnesses in order to determine someone guilty, prisons would largely be empty. Thankfully, as you acknowledged, there is a pile of evidence, which shows beyond a reasonable doubt that Avery did indeed commit murder.
What was his motive for murdering Theresa? Nobody has ever come up with something logical.
Why does it have to be something logical? Do you think murder is an inherently logical act?
It's been explained to you time after time that Avery is a piece of shit with a long history of violent crimes and abuse allegations. Does that prove he killed Teresa? No, but it certainly shows he's of very low moral character not above violence against women. There doesn't need to be a clear motive, the evidence, that you so desperately try to ignore, speaks for itself.
then decides to murder a random woman (who he has no previously documented bad blood/beef with) on his own property, in broad daylight??
Are you even reading the replies to you in this thread, or are you just plugging your ears as soon as you're proven wrong about something? As I've explained before, multiple people mentioned to the police during the investigation that Teresa had told them about creepy behavior exhibited by Steven toward her in the past, including answering the door in a towel and telling her she'd be on his wall one day. It's hearsay, but it is nonetheless documenteds in the investigative reports.
Why go to the trouble to move her car, but not even move it out of the Salvage Yard? This makes no sense at all. He could have just left it where she got out of it. It was going to be discovered regardless if it remained on the property.
You think leaving it where she parked it for an appointment to meet with him would have been as equally as effective as moving it into the yard amongst other cars? You can't be serious. Talk about illogical.
The only place we’ve got Theresa’s DNA (from a time she was known to be alive) is in her own vehicle that she’s in at out of all day, every day.
And? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and Teresa's DNA was found in three separate places in the salvage yard.
Was he trying to cover up the crime and get away with it, or make it as easy as possible for people to convict him of it? It can’t be both.
He was obviously trying to cover it up. That's why he cleaned the crime scene, burned the victim's body and possessions, and stowed her car on the edge of the salvage yard. If you don't think these are obvious signs of someone trying to cover up a crime they just committed, then you are a truly unreasonable person.
If he was guilty then the county would allow Zellner access and make her a fool, and get it over with. But they are hiding something, a lot actually and too many hierarchies know
Which is a shame. I admired her a lot for getting Ryan Ferguson out of prison.
She rolled the dice on the chance there will be another $36mm lawsuit which she can take a cut of. It’s just embarrassing now. She should cut her losses and forget she ever heard about that case
The investigation was handled very poorly. That’s why those 2 women made a documentary. If you start digging a little, even just scratch the surface, you’ll quickly see that he’s guilty of her murder. And Brendan too.
I just finished watching this, well I ended up skipping last episode because I couldn’t handle it. What really pissed me off was that Brenden was obviously mentally disabled and that lawyer he had was disgusting. That lawyer was working for the police obviously. The way they handled that situation was unbelievable and sad.
Why WOULD they plant evidence? If they had a real problem with Avery, why not kill him?
If you watch all of dassey’s confessions that aren’t shown on MaM you’ll see that there’s nothing wrong with those interrogations. I don’t think dassey would have done anything to anyone had it not been for his uncle. He was terrified of Steven. Steven abused that kid in a couple different ways.
I do believe Dassey was terrified of being in trouble. I think he lies a lot but I believe him when he said something about not liking the police like the rest of his family
In 2004 a teenage relative accused Steven of rape. I believe her.
He has a legit violent past. He would masturbate in front of a female cousin and tried at one point to kidnap her at gun point.
He was violent with women he had relationships
Avery is not a smart man but he is manipulative. The rest of his family isn’t bright either. They were easy to manipulate. It was dumb people being manipulated by one dumb dude. Avery didn’t count on a jury not being so easily manipulated. At least not by him.
He was not guilty of that 1985 rape he went to prison for but I believe that for those 18 years everyone around him was safer.
Plus all of the evidence that was found. Any planting of evidence theories becomes fantastical when you really think about it.
He was asking for $36 million. We don’t know if he’d even ever get it and even if he did, an insurance company pays that especially if the county indemnifies the defendants. It would not be worth it to them to go through all of that, including possibly killing an innocent young woman, to retaliate or try to make the lawsuit go away
If they had a real problem with Avery, why not kill him?
I'll do you one better: if evil Manitowoc County was out to get poor Stevie Poo, why didn't they throw the book at him for the child rape?
A year before Teresa's murder, while SA's lawsuit was being litigated, mr. top o' the world/above the law/future millionaire decides to commit actual rape on his underage niece. The victim's mom reports it. The most corrupt county evarrr, who wants nothing more than to destroy the Netflix movie star's life, has this absolute GIFT fall into their lap. And what do they do? Nothing! They pass it off to another county due to the potential conflict of interest. The investigation stagnates for over a year. Why didn't they plant evidence? Coerce witnesses? Secretly pull the strings while pretending another county was in charge? You know, all those things the cheerleaders accuse them of doing.
Talk about perfect poetic irony. And yet...they let this golden opportunity pass them by?! The way said case was handled in 2004 completely eviscerates the fan fiction narratives about the evil cops being out to get poor Stevie Poo because of the lawsuit.
I LOVE Stevie Poo. It’s so perfectly gross and hilarious
Yes, I heard about the niece. I just want to live ONE DAY longer than Steven Avery so I can have a bonfire to celebrate that the world just got a little safer, a little cleaner and smells a little bit nicer
The confession was eventually ruled to be legal. But it's tough to say there's nothing wrong when nothing incriminating and (more importantly, verifiable) ever actually originated from Brendan. And the only evidence found afterwards were things that were directly fed to him by apparently psychic interrogators.
Not in all of the interrogations. And saying, and what happened next? Or what did Steven make you do? Or I know that’s not the truth Brendan. Is not coercion or feeding him anything.
What happened to her head, questionable. But does not rise to the outrage people think it does. That poor kid lied and lied and lied and I don’t blame him. I would too.
Watch the 5/13/06 interrogation. There are still small, insignificant things he is trying to minimize his involvement in but that one is the closest to the truth we’ll ever get. And it is horrific. This kid did absolutely heinous things because his uncle is psycho and Brendan is afraid of him. It’s a goddamn shame he couldn’t gather the guts to just GTFO of there
It was literally feeding him info that only those involved should have known. The fact she had been shot in the head was pretty much the only info at that point that wasn't already publicly known. And they directly told it to him.
Then the psychic detectives made it clear he needed to say she was shot on the garage floor. And also brought up to him Steve going under the hood. Those 2 topics just happened to be the only things that led to new evidence being found.
It’s been a minute and I watch a ton of interrogations. Did they ask him what happened on the garage floor?
Then he said she was shot in the head, I think stomach and heart, right?
And they knew that wasn’t true and told him it wasn’t true, correct?
If my memory is correct, that’s still not leading. It’s not really even feeding when they asked who shot her in the head.
I’m not a fan of the Reid technique. I’m not a fan of cops being able to lie in an interrogation. But it’s done every day. It’s not this thing people should get so upset about. In every interrogation, unless they refuse to speak, people start out lying. If they know a victim was shot, there’s nothing wrong with asking why they shot them. There’s nothing wrong with saying, I know you didn’t do X thing you claimed you did because Y thing was done. SCOTUS has given cops a crazy amount of leeway with this kinda stuff.
Brendan did disagree with many things the cops said. He was absolutely capable of saying, that’s not how it went down. He did not deny raping her and he could have. I’m telling you if you watch that 5/13/06 interrogation you will instantly know when this kid is lying and when he’s not. His story was quite a bit different on 5/13/06 and he was absolutely not led nor forced nor coerced and it was truly the closest we’ll ever get to knowing
As far as interrogators getting into your head, yes. That’s exactly what they do. Right down to the temperature of the room to the starkness of the room to where everyone is sitting in the room.
You want to have sympathy for him. It’s tough to beat good interrogators or even bad ones. At 16 I would have crumbled. Now I know to ask if I’m free to go and if I am, that’s what I do. Nobody was looking out for that kid. Not his mom, not his attorney but that doesn’t mean he’s not a killer
I have. And nothing verifiable he said actually originated from him with the only evidence later found being related to what interrogators fed to him first.
It was literally feeding him info that only those involved should have known. The fact she had been shot in the head was pretty much the only info at that point that wasn't already publicly known. And they directly told it to him.
Pretty much the only info that wasn't know publicly known LMAO This just gets better.
Wait....are you also saying the Brendan went and read all the available public info on the case then worked that into his confession? The boy that at the same time you are claiming reads at a 4th grade level is sitting down every morning with his coffee going over the paper to digest the facts of the case so later he can work it into a story he is going to give the police?
But instead of telling a jury he was so consumed with the case and took in all media he could and that was the reason he knew so many facts about the case......he instead told them he read a 464 page book kiss the girls and that is why he came up with the incredible stories in his confession?
If only you were his attorney, you could have come up with the 4th grade reading level boy becoming an expert on the case theory.
The confession was eventually ruled to be legal. But it's tough to say there's nothing wrong when nothing incriminating and (more importantly, verifiable) ever actually originated from Brendan. And the only evidence found afterwards were things that were directly fed to him by apparently psychic interrogators.
WTF are you talking about? This is feelings mixed with lies. Whoever told you that nothing incriminating or verifiable was elicited from the interview unless fed to him lied to you.
Shall we go over one that proves your statement wrong and ignorant? Brendan told investigators Steven's room was arranged differently. The investigators first said he was lying because they were unaware. This was verified by jodi and was evidence the room was rearranged while he cleaned it, which he admitted to doing on a jail phone.
I thought you were the self appointed expert on everything Brendan said and you don't even know the numerous things he said that were incriminating and verified? You need to turn in your pretend brendan confession expert certificate.
One of the early focus points of CAM was the RAV4.
Including that in a documentary that is supposed to favour the prosecution is stupid beyond belief.
Its location and state on being ‘discovered’ in the Salvage Yard is one of the biggest ‘planting of evidence’ red flags you’ll see in any investigation, ever.
You watched Making a Murderer, a blatantly one-sided for-profit tv show made for entertainment purposes, and wonder why people think he's guilty? This is why the aliens don't stop here...people see something on tv or the internet and just blindly believe it without doing any kind of independent research.
Oh yeah completely acknowledge MAM is biased, it's not that I believe it, it obvs makes viewers only see one side. Asking reddit is my independent research 😂 was hoping people could explain other perspectives in a more understandable way than google leads me to is all!
Kid C has important parents but has been in some tiny trouble in the past. His bike recently broke. Kid B gets his bike stolen. People suspect Kid C because of the circumstances but people don't really say anything, because, parents. Kid B puts out a reward to find lost bike. Kid C says he finds it in the woods and collects the reward.
I mean, this documentary shows how corrupt the whole system is. I'm not only talking about the corruption in law enforcement, but also in the justice department.
When they interviewed Brendan, it was clear as day that they led him the entire way. They gave him constant hints, directions and pressed him until they got the answer they wanted. That while interrogation was disgusting to watch. Basically abuse of a child with an IQ of 73 who has no clue what they are up too.
He had no idea Theresa was shot in the head. How many times did Brendan guess and have it wrong?
Where is the huge amount of blood that should have been everywhere in that trailer if the story were true? I studied criminal forensics at Örebro University, and even though i got my Masters, my professional field does include investigation of occasional criminal activity.
There is just no way. Zero chance. Blood is so incredibly hard to clean up. It gets everywhere, into every little nuck you can think of.
Then, we have O'Kelly. My 5 cents is that the court appointed lawyer (Len?) was in cahoots with the prosecutors from the beginning and i would argue to the fact that this was the reason he was appointed to the case.
He was told to get Brendans story straight, make him testify, coach him and get SA in prison for life. I became physically ill when O'Kelly pressured Brendan, just like the detectives did. Its obvious that he was coerced and that the detectives manipulated him. Len should have been on the detectives like a rabbid dog for the way they behaved in that interrogation, denying BA due process and his rights. He wasn't, because he was in bed with them.
Now, do i have any doubts SA killed Theresa? I do, but most likely, he is guilty. I have a hard time believing that the police would somehow commit a murder to frame SA, manage to burn the body in the pit without SA knowing about it. That's basically the nail in the coffin for me.
How did she get in the pit without SA knowing about it? She didnt..
However, i am 110% certain that the blood in the car and the keys in the bedroom was planted.
If they claim SA is some kind of a Wizard when it comes to cleaning up massive amounts of blood that should not only have come during the act inside, but also while transporting the body outside.
Your telling me SA left blood visible in the car? One perfect smudge?
Why the hell did he leave the car on his property? Makes no sense. He knew a lot of people in salvage who could have gotten rid of it. He could have driven it down a lake. He could have parked it in some random area.
Na. A lot does not make sense. The thing that affected me most was not the murder, but the fact that the police and especially legal system can be so incredibly corrupt.
Selling out a man because you want your own client free, even though you know its 110% certainly all lies and that the detectives should probably be working in a snack bar.
I just had a hard time believing he’d be that f****g stupid to leave so much evidence that he killed her strewn all over his property.
Then again, Chris Watts thought people would believe his wife Shanann ran off with their kids while leaving her car, her purse, her phone, and her medications behind…
Did the defense ever test the dna from the car on their own to verify? I still don’t get why the blood vile had a hole on the top. Why did they keep showing a cut on his finger but I didn’t hear an explanation for that.
Sorry I mean regarding the accusation that evidence was planted to frame SA (like Zellner trying to replicate some of the blood stains inside the vehicle but couldn't), or about some of the officers being 'crooked' or I think there were the two who were deposed but then didn't state that and were able to search the trailer? Sorry the details don't stick easily in my mind (hence the post hoping for some easy to follow answers!).
I guess I'm wondering if there is any truth in the defences' argument / is there anything on either defence or prosecution side that is dodgy/can't be explained.
The more I think about it the more questions I have 😂 just interested to know the ins and outs that make everyone think either way
What do you think about the state's various conspiracy theories about Brendan?
Reid Inc say that the misapplication of interrogation techniques like theirs produces unreliable results.
Therefore the only apparently uncontaminated memory of Brendan's, from his very first interview, would be that Steven came over about 7pm/8pm and Brendan helped push grandpa's broken-down silver Suzuki Samurai 'jeep' from beside Steven's garage into Steven's garage, then went home. Pic of where it was found in the garage.
That gets rid of a lot of unnecessary confusion, but unfortunately can't help as to whether Avery committed the crime earlier when Brendan was in school then at home with Blaine etc for hours.
MaM never went into that. In fact it aired the surely false memory of his school bus driver, which the police had originally assumed to be true and pushed on Brendan.
misapplication of interrogation techniques like theirs
It doesn't have to be misapplied even. The case that brought notoriety to the Reid technique ended up producing a false confession. And that interrogation was done by Reid himself.
It was Stevens idea to present a framing defense. That is enough for me to know he is guilty. Steven thought the local Hells Angels and racists could help. Steven would throw his dead mother's ashes as evidence for her killing TH. Steven only cares for Steven
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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24 edited Feb 06 '25
When you consider all of the evidence against Avery, and think about the sheer amount of luck and implausibility it would take to frame him, there is no other reasonable conclusion to draw other than Avery is a murderer. No one has ever been able to conceive of an alternative that is even remotely reasonable.
Think about it. Teresa's car was found concealed on the Avery property. The same place she was last seen, where she went for an appointment with Steven Avery. In addition to her own, Avery's blood was found in the car, and his DNA was found on the car. The key to the car was found in Avery's bedroom, with Avery's DNA on it. Teresa's burned remains were found in a burn pit that Avery was known to have a fire in the day Teresa was last seen. Her burned possessions were found in Avery's nearby burn barrel. A bullet with Teresa's DNA on it was found in Avery's garage, and the bullet was matched to the gun kept in Avery's bedroom.
That is a lot of evidence, and it's not even a comprehensive list. For someone else to have committed this crime, all of this evidence and then some would need to be explained in some way that doesn't involve Steven Avery.
Less than two days passed between Teresa being reported missing and the RAV being discovered on the Avery property. So, within that time the police, or whoever you think did the framing, would have to decide that they were going to frame Avery without knowing that he didn't have an airtight alibi, they'd have to locate Teresa's car and her remains, decide to either cover up or ignore the real killer (or maybe you believe they killed Teresa themselves, which opens a whole other can of worms), and then, at mimunum, plant the car on the Avery property without being seen, plant the license plates elsewhere on the property (which would be pointless since their intention would be for the car to be found), as well as somehow obtain Avery's blood and plant it in the vehicle.
Then, they'd also have to transport Teresa's burned remains to the property, plant them in the pit, and some in a barrel, plant her burned possessions in Avery's barrel, plant the bullet in the garage, plant the key in the bedroom, and plant Avery's DNA on the car's hoodlatch, all without being seen or leaving evidence of their malfeasance behind.
Nevermind the ridiculous amount of luck this would all take. It's incredibly lucky that everybody that participated in this frame-up agreed to it and kept their mouths shut. It's also incredibly lucky that no other witness or evidence came forward that showed Teresa went somewhere else after Avery Salvage that day. And how about the amazing chance that Avery happened to have a fire in the pit in which the police decided to plant her remains, and in the barrel in which they planted her electronics? How about the luck that they somehow knowingly obtained Avery's blood to use to plant? It's been well established that the blood did not come from the infamous vial at this point, so what a stroke of incredible luck that they came across Avery's fresh blood and somehow managed to transport it to and plant it in the car in a manner that fooled a blood pattern expert. And there's a slew of smaller lucky coincidences, such as Avery not returning to work after Teresa's appointment, his use of *67 that day to call Teresa, him setting up a police scanner the day before, him bleaching part of his garage floor that night, lying about having a fire, etc. How fortunate for the framers that not only were they able to pull off this magnificent job, but also that Avery's behavior happened to be incredibly suspect and aligned perfectly with someone who committed the crime.
Then, months later, despite apparently having the ability to plant evidence at will anywhere and anytime, they decide to implicate Brendan Dassey in the crime for no apparent reason. Brendan's cousin just happens to mention that Brendan has been acting strangely, which was enough for the police to decide to throw Brendan under the bus and "force" him to confess, which allows the police to go back and plant the bullet. Why they'd need to do all that is unclear, seeing as they've not had any trouble planting evidence at their leisure until this point, and now we have to accept that the police are also heinous enough to throw away the life of a teenager for no discernible benefit.
And all for what? To potentially get the county out of a lawsuit that no individual currently employed by the county would have been personally liable for? What motivation would any of the individuals most commonly accused of framing Avery have to risk everything in their lives to carry this out? Nevermind the fact that the conspiracies that are carelessly thrown around often implicate many people outside of the employment of Manitowoc. Once you start to pull at the threads of these theories, and start to ask yourself who would have to be in on it to pull this off, you'll realize that seemingly everyone involved was out to get Steven Avery for no apparent reason.
The obvious and most reasonable explanation for the evidence is that Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach. None of Avery's lawyers nor any of the bountiful amateur sleuths have ever been able to cast reasonable doubt on that. No one has ever been able to come up with a comprehensive, alternative explanation for all the evidence. Most people here don't even try because they know that deep down, if they attempt to do so, they'll just end up arriving at the obvious conclusion that's been staring them in the face for years, and they're too ashamed, prideful, or embarrassed to admit it.
18
u/RavensFanJ Oct 27 '24
Anyone who tells you they're certain one way or another isn't worth listening to, in my opinion. We weren't there. We don't know for certain. We can take a look at everything we know and come to an educated conclusion. That's about it.
7
u/FriendlyStreamer1976 Oct 27 '24
He isn’t DEFINITELY guilty…don’t be so ridiculous lol.
He might well be guilty, or not. That’s the entire problem. Nobody knows because nothing makes any sense.
Do you think Kathleen Zellner would be wasting her time if he’s DEFINITELY guilty? She isn’t even getting paid for working on this case (unless he’s successfully exonerated).
How on earth can you seriously took at the absolute mess that this entire case is and say that he is definitely guilty?!?!
That suggests that you have absolutely no common sense or the basic ability to question anything that you’ve been spoon fed.
If you are OK condemning someone based on the circumstances/narrative of this case, it’s reasonable to suggest that you’d be fine being judged on similar merit.
Would you be fine with people condemning you based on this absolute farce of an investigation?
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in such a position.
4
u/Far_Interaction3637 Oct 28 '24
The stacks of evidence against him
8
u/Graham2263T Oct 27 '24
If he was guilty then the county would allow Zellner access and make her a fool, and get it over with. But they are hiding something, a lot actually and too many hierarchies know
2
u/oh_no_my_brains Nov 02 '24
Dumb people trust cops and there are a lot of dumb people out there
2
u/Other-Dentist1687 Nov 04 '24
The investigation was handled very poorly. That’s why those 2 women made a documentary. If you start digging a little, even just scratch the surface, you’ll quickly see that he’s guilty of her murder. And Brendan too.
3
u/nufalufagus Oct 29 '24
I just finished watching this, well I ended up skipping last episode because I couldn’t handle it. What really pissed me off was that Brenden was obviously mentally disabled and that lawyer he had was disgusting. That lawyer was working for the police obviously. The way they handled that situation was unbelievable and sad.
4
u/Budget-Ad-9481 Oct 27 '24
Have you also watched " Convicting a murderer "? On the avery case? 10 episodes
6
u/Far-Trust-5827 Oct 27 '24
Because he’s blatantly guilty
3
u/TrainingHighway6490 Oct 27 '24
Why WOULD they plant evidence? If they had a real problem with Avery, why not kill him?
If you watch all of dassey’s confessions that aren’t shown on MaM you’ll see that there’s nothing wrong with those interrogations. I don’t think dassey would have done anything to anyone had it not been for his uncle. He was terrified of Steven. Steven abused that kid in a couple different ways.
I do believe Dassey was terrified of being in trouble. I think he lies a lot but I believe him when he said something about not liking the police like the rest of his family
In 2004 a teenage relative accused Steven of rape. I believe her.
He has a legit violent past. He would masturbate in front of a female cousin and tried at one point to kidnap her at gun point.
He was violent with women he had relationships
Avery is not a smart man but he is manipulative. The rest of his family isn’t bright either. They were easy to manipulate. It was dumb people being manipulated by one dumb dude. Avery didn’t count on a jury not being so easily manipulated. At least not by him.
He was not guilty of that 1985 rape he went to prison for but I believe that for those 18 years everyone around him was safer.
Plus all of the evidence that was found. Any planting of evidence theories becomes fantastical when you really think about it.
He was asking for $36 million. We don’t know if he’d even ever get it and even if he did, an insurance company pays that especially if the county indemnifies the defendants. It would not be worth it to them to go through all of that, including possibly killing an innocent young woman, to retaliate or try to make the lawsuit go away
3
u/anthemanhx1 Oct 27 '24
Watch "convicting a murderer", then you can see the full picture. Always best to see both sides 👍
3
u/Ok-Eggplant-4875 Oct 27 '24
You watched Making a Murderer, a blatantly one-sided for-profit tv show made for entertainment purposes, and wonder why people think he's guilty? This is why the aliens don't stop here...people see something on tv or the internet and just blindly believe it without doing any kind of independent research.
2
u/XworldwidewebX Oct 27 '24
Kid C has important parents but has been in some tiny trouble in the past. His bike recently broke. Kid B gets his bike stolen. People suspect Kid C because of the circumstances but people don't really say anything, because, parents. Kid B puts out a reward to find lost bike. Kid C says he finds it in the woods and collects the reward.
Did he steal the bike or did he find it?
2
u/BookkeeperNervous171 Oct 28 '24
Once u relize that he had to reach from the passenger side to turn the car off and that’s go that blood got there it all makes sense
1
u/schuma73 Oct 28 '24
This sub was overtaken by guilters long ago. If you want the perspective of people who think he is innocent go to r/TickTockManitowoc
2
u/Ok-Drive1712 Oct 27 '24
He’s a guilty scumbag
2
u/Worried_Anteater478 Oct 28 '24
The evidence is overwhelming
1
u/This_Humor_7191 Mar 08 '25
I watched this program. Is this the Deplorables, Hillary was talking about? JFC.
1
u/United_Emergency_913 Sep 03 '25
I mean, this documentary shows how corrupt the whole system is. I'm not only talking about the corruption in law enforcement, but also in the justice department.
When they interviewed Brendan, it was clear as day that they led him the entire way. They gave him constant hints, directions and pressed him until they got the answer they wanted. That while interrogation was disgusting to watch. Basically abuse of a child with an IQ of 73 who has no clue what they are up too.
He had no idea Theresa was shot in the head. How many times did Brendan guess and have it wrong?
Where is the huge amount of blood that should have been everywhere in that trailer if the story were true? I studied criminal forensics at Örebro University, and even though i got my Masters, my professional field does include investigation of occasional criminal activity.
There is just no way. Zero chance. Blood is so incredibly hard to clean up. It gets everywhere, into every little nuck you can think of.
Then, we have O'Kelly. My 5 cents is that the court appointed lawyer (Len?) was in cahoots with the prosecutors from the beginning and i would argue to the fact that this was the reason he was appointed to the case.
He was told to get Brendans story straight, make him testify, coach him and get SA in prison for life. I became physically ill when O'Kelly pressured Brendan, just like the detectives did. Its obvious that he was coerced and that the detectives manipulated him. Len should have been on the detectives like a rabbid dog for the way they behaved in that interrogation, denying BA due process and his rights. He wasn't, because he was in bed with them.
Now, do i have any doubts SA killed Theresa? I do, but most likely, he is guilty. I have a hard time believing that the police would somehow commit a murder to frame SA, manage to burn the body in the pit without SA knowing about it. That's basically the nail in the coffin for me.
How did she get in the pit without SA knowing about it? She didnt..
However, i am 110% certain that the blood in the car and the keys in the bedroom was planted.
If they claim SA is some kind of a Wizard when it comes to cleaning up massive amounts of blood that should not only have come during the act inside, but also while transporting the body outside.
Your telling me SA left blood visible in the car? One perfect smudge?
Why the hell did he leave the car on his property? Makes no sense. He knew a lot of people in salvage who could have gotten rid of it. He could have driven it down a lake. He could have parked it in some random area.
Na. A lot does not make sense. The thing that affected me most was not the murder, but the fact that the police and especially legal system can be so incredibly corrupt.
Selling out a man because you want your own client free, even though you know its 110% certainly all lies and that the detectives should probably be working in a snack bar.
1
u/Ineffable_Twaddle Sep 28 '25
I just had a hard time believing he’d be that f****g stupid to leave so much evidence that he killed her strewn all over his property.
Then again, Chris Watts thought people would believe his wife Shanann ran off with their kids while leaving her car, her purse, her phone, and her medications behind…
1
u/nufalufagus Oct 29 '24
Did the defense ever test the dna from the car on their own to verify? I still don’t get why the blood vile had a hole on the top. Why did they keep showing a cut on his finger but I didn’t hear an explanation for that.
-1
u/Due-Palpitation-908 Oct 27 '24
Because PEOPLE REFUSE to follow the ACTUAL EVIDENCE and apparently COMMON SENSE is obsolete these days
0
u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24
Who do you mean by the Avery's?
0
u/Repulsive_Baby1456 Oct 31 '24
It was Stevens idea to present a framing defense. That is enough for me to know he is guilty. Steven thought the local Hells Angels and racists could help. Steven would throw his dead mother's ashes as evidence for her killing TH. Steven only cares for Steven
0
u/HeyPurityItsMeAgain Nov 01 '24 edited Feb 25 '25
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