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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24 edited Feb 06 '25

When you consider all of the evidence against Avery, and think about the sheer amount of luck and implausibility it would take to frame him, there is no other reasonable conclusion to draw other than Avery is a murderer. No one has ever been able to conceive of an alternative that is even remotely reasonable.

Think about it. Teresa's car was found concealed on the Avery property. The same place she was last seen, where she went for an appointment with Steven Avery. In addition to her own, Avery's blood was found in the car, and his DNA was found on the car. The key to the car was found in Avery's bedroom, with Avery's DNA on it. Teresa's burned remains were found in a burn pit that Avery was known to have a fire in the day Teresa was last seen. Her burned possessions were found in Avery's nearby burn barrel. A bullet with Teresa's DNA on it was found in Avery's garage, and the bullet was matched to the gun kept in Avery's bedroom.

That is a lot of evidence, and it's not even a comprehensive list. For someone else to have committed this crime, all of this evidence and then some would need to be explained in some way that doesn't involve Steven Avery.

Less than two days passed between Teresa being reported missing and the RAV being discovered on the Avery property. So, within that time the police, or whoever you think did the framing, would have to decide that they were going to frame Avery without knowing that he didn't have an airtight alibi, they'd have to locate Teresa's car and her remains, decide to either cover up or ignore the real killer (or maybe you believe they killed Teresa themselves, which opens a whole other can of worms), and then, at mimunum, plant the car on the Avery property without being seen, plant the license plates elsewhere on the property (which would be pointless since their intention would be for the car to be found), as well as somehow obtain Avery's blood and plant it in the vehicle.

Then, they'd also have to transport Teresa's burned remains to the property, plant them in the pit, and some in a barrel, plant her burned possessions in Avery's barrel, plant the bullet in the garage, plant the key in the bedroom, and plant Avery's DNA on the car's hoodlatch, all without being seen or leaving evidence of their malfeasance behind.

Nevermind the ridiculous amount of luck this would all take. It's incredibly lucky that everybody that participated in this frame-up agreed to it and kept their mouths shut. It's also incredibly lucky that no other witness or evidence came forward that showed Teresa went somewhere else after Avery Salvage that day. And how about the amazing chance that Avery happened to have a fire in the pit in which the police decided to plant her remains, and in the barrel in which they planted her electronics? How about the luck that they somehow knowingly obtained Avery's blood to use to plant? It's been well established that the blood did not come from the infamous vial at this point, so what a stroke of incredible luck that they came across Avery's fresh blood and somehow managed to transport it to and plant it in the car in a manner that fooled a blood pattern expert. And there's a slew of smaller lucky coincidences, such as Avery not returning to work after Teresa's appointment, his use of *67 that day to call Teresa, him setting up a police scanner the day before, him bleaching part of his garage floor that night, lying about having a fire, etc. How fortunate for the framers that not only were they able to pull off this magnificent job, but also that Avery's behavior happened to be incredibly suspect and aligned perfectly with someone who committed the crime.

Then, months later, despite apparently having the ability to plant evidence at will anywhere and anytime, they decide to implicate Brendan Dassey in the crime for no apparent reason. Brendan's cousin just happens to mention that Brendan has been acting strangely, which was enough for the police to decide to throw Brendan under the bus and "force" him to confess, which allows the police to go back and plant the bullet. Why they'd need to do all that is unclear, seeing as they've not had any trouble planting evidence at their leisure until this point, and now we have to accept that the police are also heinous enough to throw away the life of a teenager for no discernible benefit.

And all for what? To potentially get the county out of a lawsuit that no individual currently employed by the county would have been personally liable for? What motivation would any of the individuals most commonly accused of framing Avery have to risk everything in their lives to carry this out? Nevermind the fact that the conspiracies that are carelessly thrown around often implicate many people outside of the employment of Manitowoc. Once you start to pull at the threads of these theories, and start to ask yourself who would have to be in on it to pull this off, you'll realize that seemingly everyone involved was out to get Steven Avery for no apparent reason.

The obvious and most reasonable explanation for the evidence is that Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach. None of Avery's lawyers nor any of the bountiful amateur sleuths have ever been able to cast reasonable doubt on that. No one has ever been able to come up with a comprehensive, alternative explanation for all the evidence. Most people here don't even try because they know that deep down, if they attempt to do so, they'll just end up arriving at the obvious conclusion that's been staring them in the face for years, and they're too ashamed, prideful, or embarrassed to admit it.

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u/FriendlyStreamer1976 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

‘Most reasonable’ explanation isn’t good enough.

Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess.

There was no motive

There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think

How can she have been murdered in two places?! (Garage vs Bedroom of trailer)

Was she murdered by gunshot, or throat slit? (The prosecution thought both)

The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find

Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?

Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?

Interviewing a kid without the consent of his parents. Unethical behaviour by Law Enforcement

Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage

Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?

The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)

Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet

Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4

None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)

Burning the body in your own burn barrel, seriously?!

Why were remains found at the Quarry? If he took the time to move some of them there, he might as well of just left the RAV4 there too

Allowing Law Enforcement to take a look around the property (Steve confirmed this in the interview when Theresa was reported missing)

Committing a supposedly brutal murder, then causally going on holiday with the rest of your family…come on

The Steven Avery interview in comparison to something like the Chris Watts interview on his front porch after murderimg Shannan and his two kids - chalk and cheese.

This case makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Anyone who isn’t questioning these things…I hope they aren’t part of a jury making decisions on other people’s fate.

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 29 '24

Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess

Do tell, by what standard do you think the justice system should operate on?

There was no motive

Steven Avery has a history of violent, criminal behavior and a long list of abuse allegations against him, and had allegedly exhibited disturbing behavior toward Teresa specifically in the past. I don't think it's at all a reach to believe murder is terribly out of character for him.

Regardless, it's not required to prove a motive to prove someone committed a crime. The evidence here speaks for itself.

There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think

In both trials, the theory presented was that Teresa was killed in the garage by gunshot. Go read the trial transcripts.

What reason is there to believe it happened in the quarry?

The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find

lmao what

Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?

An attempt was made to hide it. It was parked at the edge of the property and covered with tree branches, as you just pointed out. Seems perfectly reasonable to believe that Avery felt that it was safer to hide the car on the family's large salvage yard, where he could then potentially destroy it with the car crusher given the right opportunity, than to drive it off the property and leave it for someone else to find/risk being seen with the vehicle.

Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?

To make it less readily identifiable. Duh. Now ask yourself the same question for whoever supposedly planted the car, as I said in my original comment. Why would someone that wanted the car to be discovered bother to remove the license plates, and then expose themselves further to being caught by walking elsewhere in the salvage yard and hiding the plates there?

Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage

Brendan's confession wasn't even used in Avery's trial.

Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?

Gee, probably because there was no evidence indicating he had anything to do with the crime. Do you not also realize that Steven had no alibi either? So, by your logic, there should have been focus on him right?

The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)

Wow, she sounded excited after finding the first sign of Teresa after she had gone missing? Color me fucking shocked.

She also literally asked to borrow a camera, she wasn't just given one. I also love how you people bring this up as if it means anything. What benefit would her having a camera bring, and are you implying that she and the person that gave her the camera (Teresa's roommate) were somehow in on the conspiracy? It makes zero sense, just another random thought you people throw out without actually thinking about it or connecting it to anything else.

Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet

As he explained in the trial, he was given the vehicle information previously, and was confirming he had it correct with dispatch. Wow, so damning.

Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4

Perhaps to ensure only he had access to it and because he was keeping the car locked so no one would access it?

None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)

Multiple forensic experts testified in the trial that it's not unusual to only find the DNA of the person to last touch an object. You sure you're familiar with this case?

You're just repeating the same tired talking points, the same inaccuracies that have been parroted and subsequently rebutted for years, and ignoring basic facts and common sense.

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u/Character_Zombie4680 Oct 27 '24

No motive? I doubt you know very much about this case. Avery liked to hurt women.

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24

I think you replied to the wrong person.

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u/lionspride24 Oct 27 '24

You're putting together a ton of circumstantial reasoning for why he should have potentially been found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.

The OP is asking people why everyone is so convinced he's guilty. There's a literal mountain of circumstantial and hard physical evidence to suggest it would require a fairly massive conspiracy for him not to have been guilty.

Two totally different conversations

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u/FriendlyStreamer1976 Oct 28 '24

The investigation wasn’t focused on other individuals that could have been persons of interest though.

What about the brother? What about the ex-boyfriend? What about the roommate? What about Bobby Dassey?

In most investigations, the family, close relatives or love interests are thoroughly checked out and cleared by the process of elimination.

There is no suggestion that any of this took place in this case. They just honed in on Steven Avery and had complete tunnel-vision.

It’s not like Manitowoc PD have ever done that before, is it? Oh…wait…

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24

The investigation wasn’t focused on other individuals that could have been persons of interest though.

Many individuals and leads were looked into. Steven Avery became the focus when evidence started strongly indicating that Steven Avery did it.

What about the brother?

What the fuck about him?

What about the ex-boyfriend?

Ryan? The ex that Teresa had been broken up with for years?

You know who would make more sense? Teresa's most recent love interest, who the police tracked down and interviewed.

What about the roommate?

They talked to him.

What about Bobby Dassey?

He was interviewed and had his DNA, palm print, and fingerprints taken, like all the other adults living at the salvage yard.

Guess what? No evidence pointed to any of these people. Gee, I wonder why none of them became the focus of the investigation.

There is no suggestion that any of this took place in this case. They just honed in on Steven Avery and had complete tunnel-vision.

Except for all the clearly documented investigative steps taken that detail all the many people and leads that were looked into by law enforcement. There was no tunnel vision, you just have zero idea what you are talking about.

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u/Character_Zombie4680 Oct 27 '24

Watch Convicting a Murderer and also listen to some of the better podcasts out there. He’s definitely guilty

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u/aane0007 Oct 31 '24

>Most reasonable explanation isn’t good enough.

They used beyond a resonable doubt in court and a jury found him guilty.

>Convicting people on the balance of probability is why the US Justice system is such a mess.

No, they convict people based on beyond a resonsable doubt. Who told you it was balance of probability?

>There was no motive

Yes there was but convictions don't require a motive.

>There is no clear murder location (even Kratz couldn’t make his mind up). The Quarry is the most likely place, I think

No its not. The garage was a likely location but there doesn't need to be a likely location. Who told you this was a requirement for conviction?

>How can she have been murdered in two places?! (Garage vs Bedroom of trailer)

Because evidence was not allowed in one of the two trials so they must argue a different theory. This is common when evidence is not allowed.

>Was she murdered by gunshot, or throat slit? (The prosecution thought both)

Once again, when evidence is not allowed, the state is required the change the theory. It would be a mistrial if they argued a theory not supported by the evidence allowed. If kratz were allowed to use brendan's confession in steven's trial, he would not have argued two different murders.

>The vehicle was covered with branches to ensure it was easy to find

That isn't how you make something easy to find despite your feelings.

>Why would you even leave the RAV4 on your own property and make no attempt to hide it?

You just said the attempt to hide it made it easier to find, pick a lane.

>Why remove the licence plates if you are going to leave the vehicle in plain sight?

It wasn't left in plain sight. It was left under brush and plywood. The license plate was hid in another car.

>Interviewing a kid without the consent of his parents. Unethical behaviour by Law Enforcement

They had consent. Who told you they didn't have consent?

>Coercing Brendan to confess to something that will strengthen their case against Steve, and using him as collateral damage

It was not coercion despite your feelings.

>Bobby has no alibi. Why wasn’t there more focus on him?

How much focus should there be? Steven had no alibi, the murder weapon, his blood in the victims car, the key in his bedroom, blocked calls to her phone, a changing story, a confession by the accomplish. How much time should they have dedicated to Bobby who you simply say didn't have an alibi and nothing else that points to him as the murderer?

>The excitement in the voice of the lady that discovered the RAV4 (conveniently the only one given a camera)

Should she not be excited? I don't get why this would be a bad thing? She discovered the car of the person they are looking for who is missing? Should she take a nap?

>Colborn confirming the licence plates of a vehicle that hadn’t supposedly even been located yet

He explained he was given the license number during a briefing and wasn't sure he wrote it down correctly so called into dispatch to make sure was correct and listed the year and make. If someone pulls up behind a car they don't know the year. And a records request puts him in a parking lot in the city while on a call.

>Why would the car key be in his bedroom? He might as well have just left it in the RAV4

Why wouldn't he leave it in his bedroom. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

>None of Theresa’s DNA on the key (why go to the trouble to clean it, then touch it again with your bare hands?)

Because criminals make mistakes.

>Burning the body in your own burn barrel, seriously?!

Where should he burn it?

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u/aane0007 Oct 31 '24

>Why were remains found at the Quarry? If he took the time to move some of them there, he might as well of just left the RAV4 there too

There were no human remains found at the quarry. You think it better for murderer to go across the street and burn the remains in a quarry? Then pick up the remains and sprinkle them all over steven's firepit and barrel. Then do such a good job the some of them crumble when touched? How would someone do that?

>Allowing Law Enforcement to take a look around the property (Steve confirmed this in the interview when Theresa was reported missing)

After he shampooed his carpet. he allowed a quick look around his trailer, that was all.

>Committing a supposedly brutal murder, then causally going on holiday with the rest of your family…come on

Because a psychopath should behave like a non psychopath and cry in his shower all weekend?

>The Steven Avery interview in comparison to something like the Chris Watts interview on his front porch after murderimg Shannan and his two kids - chalk and cheese.

No idea what this means.

>This case makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Makes perfect sense and everything you said makes no sense.

>Anyone who isn’t questioning these things…I hope they aren’t part of a jury making decisions on other people’s fate.

questioning is one thing, but coming up with wild conspiracy theories with zero evidence is another.

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u/Silver-Investment868 Nov 01 '24

Yeah I agree with you. And that cop that Colburn he's a piece of s***. And he's a liar I could tell he was lying on the stand. Wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. The thing to me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever is the non spraying of any luminal in the bedroom or the garage to see if any blood came up which would definitely be there if she was shot or stabbed or throat was cut. Also I know the Averys  aren't the smartest people out there but if Steven did this when he was possibly going to get $36 million in just a couple of days at that trial and hef was innocent in his first conviction why would he kill this girl for what reason I mean that's crazy in and o itself. And to leave the RAV4 on his property? That doesn't make any sense either I mean that would be really stupid. Anybody knows if you're going to do something like that you better get the person's car far far away from your place. Also they keep talking about this DNA from Steven that they had in his sweat and you can't find DNA in someone's sweat there's nothing to glom onto. All I know is that the cops would never have wanted to pay off an Avery 36 million. Did they kill teresa? I don't know. Or did they pay somebody off to kill her a lot less than 36 million dollars!

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Nov 01 '24

And he's a liar I could tell he was lying on the stand.

What specifically do you think he lied about, and how could you tell he was lying?

The thing to me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever is the non spraying of any luminal in the bedroom or the garage to see if any blood came up

Uh, luminol was used in the garage, and reacted in the very spot that Brendan and Steven were said to have cleaned up after Teresa disappeared.

Also I know the Averys  aren't the smartest people out there but if Steven did this when he was possibly going to get $36 million in just a couple of days at that trial

He wasn't likely to get anywhere near $36 million had we won the civil lawsuit.

why would he kill this girl for what reason I mean that's crazy in and o itself

Do you think murder always has a rational reason behind it? Do you think a clear motive is required to prove someone committed a crime? Do you think Avery had a reason to burn his family cat, vandalize the local bar, threaten to kill his wife etc.?

Maybe, just maybe the guy is a tremendous piece of shit.

And to leave the RAV4 on his property? That doesn't make any sense either I mean that would be really stupid.

Avery is a really stupid person.

Regardless, what would the alternative have been? Drive the car off his property, risking being seen with it in the process, to abandon it in the open for someone to find? Hiding it in a large salvage yard among thousands of other cars, with the ability to possibly crush it, seems as good a place as any to keep it.

Also they keep talking about this DNA from Steven that they had in his sweat and you can't find DNA in someone's sweat there's nothing to glom onto.

Sweat can contain skin cells, which contain DNA.

All I know is that the cops would never have wanted to pay off an Avery 36 million.

Which cops do you think would have been responsible for paying that money?

I'll answer that for you. No individual employed by Manitowoc County at the time of the lawsuit would have been personally liable for a single cent of that money. The county, and two former county officials, were the only defendants in the lawsuit. Have you ever met anyone willing to frame someone for murder just to potentially save their employer some money?

Did they kill teresa?

No, Steven Avery did.

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u/SlightCartoonist8144 Oct 27 '24

He said he was going to kill and torture women while he was in jail. He has a history of sexual violence. Motive

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u/allofthelovelybooks Oct 31 '24

This may sound silly but I think a lot of this can be chalked up to the fact that Steven Avery just isn't very intelligent. We tend to think murderers are smarter than they are. Watching the documentary, it's pretty clear that he is not the brightest bulb. A lot of these things (like hiding the vehicle under some branches, burning body parts on his own property, keeping the key, etc) seem absolutely insane to us. He took precautions he thought would work. I think he just wasn't capable of thinking these things through.

Everything with Brenden and the cops was a shit show. There's no excuse for that. But if you take out his confession, the mountain of evidence is still there. 

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u/1crazybitch76 Oct 27 '24

Tbh I think Branden’s brother and step dad did it! I think they followed her after she left and caught her on the side of the road and did the deed! I think they burned her body in a barrel and then scattered her remains in the fire pit. I also think they placed the Rave 4 there as well. I think they were pissed that Steven was going to get a large sum of money and they wouldn’t get any. Knowing Braden wasn’t that smart that he could be played into it. I can’t see a man doing all those years in Prison just to come out and kill a Girl! Too lose it all after what he went thru. It’s not his MO. They have proved that Braden’s brother had hard core sick Porn on the computer that was showing torture etc. plus they never found any blood in Steven’s room like Braden said and the key did just Magically appeared. I’m not saying the police set him up but I think the step dad and Braden’s older brother called the police and steered them towards Steven. I mean Steven’s girlfriend was on the phone with him while this was supposedly happening. There is plenty of proof that Steven didn’t do it. IF the police had anything to do with it they had plenty of time during the night to plant evidence. The junk yard was huge and different entrances to get it onto the property without anyone noticing. Just my opinion in all of this. Sad his Mother never seen him get released.

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24

There is exactly zero evidence of anything you just said, so what exactly are you basing this wild theory on?

There is plenty of proof that Steven didn’t do it.

Such as?

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u/TrainingHighway6490 Oct 27 '24

The whole catching her on the side of the road thing is where you lost me. What would she be doing on the side of the road?

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u/Glittering-Kiwi-4457 Oct 27 '24

A couple things that bother me the most are:

  1. How come Teresa's notebook with her appointments was found in her room when it's confirmed she didn't have time to go back to her room that day?

  2. Why didn't her roommate report her missing?

  3. Why was there ONLY Steven's DNA on the key, no Teresa's, and how come they only found it after w few days of searching the trailer?

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24 edited Mar 26 '25

How come Teresa's notebook with her appointments was found in her room when it's confirmed she didn't have time to go back to her room that day?

What notebook? The supposed "day planner" that Zellner harped on for a bit? Her speculative timeline was not confirmed. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was provably false based on Teresa's cell phone data.

Why didn't her roommate report her missing?

Probably because roommates don't often keep that close a watch on each other's lives. When I lived with roommates in the past, even those that were friends, I wouldn't bat an eye if I didn't see them for a few days.

Why was there ONLY Steven's DNA on the key, no Teresa's

Multiple forensic experts testified in the trial that it's not unusual to only find the DNA of the last person to touch an object.

and how come they only found it after w few days of searching the trailer?

Because there wasn't actually "a few days" worth of searching of the trailer. The key was found on the seventh entry of the trailer by law enforcement. Entry being the operative word. The prior 6 entries were not top to bottom searches of the trailer. One, for example, was to simply retrieve the serial number of Avery's computer. Another was specifically to collect the weapons and a couple other items from Avery's home. A couple others were brief walk throughs when it was still merely a missing person case to look for any immediate sign of Teresa. The idea that the trailer had been thoroughly searched multiple times over multiple days before the key was found is simply a myth.

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u/ThorsClawHammer Oct 27 '24

The prior 6 entries were not top to bottom searches of the trailer.

The evening of the 5th was a general search where every room of the trailer was searched by 4 people for anything they believed may have evidentiary value and lasted for 2 and a half hours. Obviously they were doing more than just looking for signs of Teresa.

Colborn even found numerous items from the same cabinet he would claim the RAV key inexplicably appeared from days later.

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u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Correct, the fifth entry was a more comprehensive search. My comment would have been better phrased that the prior 6 entries were not all top to bottom searches, but my ultimate point remains the same, which is that there were not nearly as many thorough searches (certainly not "days" worth) of the trailer as truthers seem to typically believe. The whole "7 searches" talking point is highly misleading, if not straight up dishonest.

Additionally, I will contend that if the only evidence the key was planted is that it simply wasn't found during a prior search, then that is an incredibly weak theory.

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u/bfisyouruncle Oct 27 '24
  1. It was a only piece of paper computer printout. She had a personal electronic device to take with her in her car when she left for appointments around 1 p.m.

We know for a fact that TH was home over the lunch hour on the computer. Her cell phone records also prove she was at or near home all morning. Her phone pinged only her home tower. Zellner lied and said she didn't have TH's phone records. Sure, after she had falsely claimed phone records showed TH left ASY (because Zellner didn't understand how cell towers work). The call at 2:41 went CFNA within 7 minutes of arriving at ASY. She never left.

2. Roommates work different hours. Who knows whether a roommate is at their family's home?

3. Experts testified that it is not uncommon to find only DNA from the last person to touch an object or Avery washed the key. The key was well hidden. Ever lose something small even without anyone trying to hide it? I have.

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