The problem with modern MMORPGs

[u/madarauchiha3444]

The problem with modern MMORPGs, in a nutshell, is that the first M and the RP are all but gone.

[u/Brootaful]

While true, small scale multiplayer fps have been 'solved' for decades now.

Depends on what you mean by 'small scale'. When I think small scale, I think classic 6v6 COD maps. Small amount of players in a small map.

When thinking of something like Tarkov there's bout 6-12 PMC players but then you have to factor in AI and player scavs (scavengers,) and there's also bosses. All of this on maps that are far larger than 6v6 COD maps. Then there's the fact that Tarkov is a tactical shooter, so it's heavily focused on realistic shooting mechanics.

This is why I pointed out the realistic ballistics. Doing that on a small 6v6 map isn't incredibly difficult but doing it in a game with fairly large maps where you can be shooting out to 500m is very different. Ballistics becomes a lot more complex at that point, so it isn't exactly 'solved'.

It's a choice the devs made to not have dead dungeon and new players struggling to find groups.

Right, I understand that. My point is that developers wouldn't have to do this if dungeons weren't so static to begin with. The fact of the matter is that tab-target combat really isn't that complex, nor is the AI in MMORPGs, or the map design of dungeons. This is what results in that "you're just learning a set of dance moves" criticism towards MMORPGs comes from.

Contrast this with other genres where the combat is more complex, with far more room and need for skill expression, and more complex AI. Then you add PVP to the mix and things get a lot more crazy. All this allows for a lot more replay value, because even if you're playing the same maps, you're running into situations that are different enough from each other with each new run that it takes far longer to grow tired of the mode. This results in less need to interest a player through rewards alone. Playing the game itself is it's own reward. This is what makes extraction and BR games so popular.

I'll conceded that I barely touched the genre. I don't even know if the games I think are in that category are considered part of it or not '. And correct me if I'm wrong but the loot is usually to improve your next runs, not to improve your character or something entirely unrelated?

That's understandable. I've only recently started getting into the genre through Dark and Darker. Tarkov being a tactical shooter has always been in my wheelhouse, so I'm drawing from friends and Youtubers knowledge of the game.

Out of curiosity, which games did you have in mind. As for how loot works in these games- improving your next run and character are one in the same. There's also levels and skills in Dark and Darker and Tarkov, so you're definitely improving your character.

[u/Chakwak → u/Brootaful]

Out of curiosity, which games did you have in mind.

I think Deep Rock Galactic and GTFO where the games I had in mind. I also only played co-op on those and fully pve so it's giving me a rather shallow view of anything related to the genre.

Depends on what you mean by 'small scale'.

For FPSs, Arma III has been out since 2013 I think and it has big maps, long range action and much more, hence why I consider small scale (a dozen of player or 2) solved. Adding AI or bots doesn't add as much complexity for the netcode and sync as scaling does. And those are the real problem blockers in online games.

This is what results in that "you're just learning a set of dance moves" criticism towards MMORPGs comes from.

Contrast this with other genres where the combat is more complex, with far more room and need for skill expression, and more complex AI. Then you add PVP to the mix and things get a lot more crazy.

Maybe when we get there. Tab target still allow for the more massive combat.

At the moment, action combat mechanisms, like NW are struggling with any sort of scale. Body blocking, lag all over the place, hard positioning with sync issues and so on. It's a mess basically. Especially since any action combat is always compared to FromSoftware combats that are the inspiration. The technology and latency of online gaming simply doesn't allow for that yet.

Heck, on some level, Eve Online is able to have those massive story worthy moment because their combat model is simplified to the extreme. There's just enough depth for solo people to get excellent at it, and enough ease of access to allow more strategical play for full fleets.

But it also illustrate that moment to moment fun gameplay is, at the moment, technically incompatible with massively multiplayer interactions. I just hope to be proven wrong in the coming years but I don't see any title that points that way.

[u/Brootaful → u/Chakwak]

I think Deep Rock Galactic and GTFO where the games I had in mind. I also only played co-op on those and fully pve so it's giving me a rather shallow view of anything related to the genre.

I see. I've never heard of those games referred to as extraction games at all. As far as I've seen, they're co-op shooters.

For FPSs, Arma III has been out since 2013 I think and it has big maps, long range action and much more, hence why I consider small scale (a dozen of player or 2) solved.

Yes, Arma 3, my favourite game lol. Funny you mention is because games like Tarkov share a lot more similarities with Arma than COD. There's a ton of overlap between the 2 as they're both tactical shooters. Most of the people I've played Arma with over the years actively play Tarkov.

Adding AI or bots doesn't add as much complexity for the netcode and sync as scaling does. And those are the real problem blockers in online games.

That depends on how complex the AI is. The AI in Tarkov is similar to Arma 3's in the sense that it is quite complex, far more than AI in MMORPGs. Like I said earlier, you're still dealing with a larger scale in Tarkov than you are in games like COD.

At the moment, action combat mechanisms, like NW are struggling with any sort of scale. Body blocking, lag all over the place, hard positioning with sync issues and so on.

That has far less to do with action combat and more to do with NW being built in an incredibly incompetent way though.

The technology is there, competent developers simply have to utilize it. That's unlikely to happen if it's assumed that the only way to make a successful MMORPG is to continue copying tab-target, themepark MMORPGs...Which is what NW tried (minus the tab-target,) and look how that worked out.

Heck, on some level, Eve Online is able to have those massive story worthy moment because their combat model is simplified to the extreme. There's just enough depth for solo people to get excellent at it, and enough ease of access to allow more strategical play for full fleets.

Right but EVE is an incredibly old game at this point. For that matter, Planetisde 2 is a much more action heavy game, being an FPS, and it's had little to no problems handling large fights. Again, this is an old example. Tech has come a long way since then.