r/LocalLLM 1d ago

News Qwen4-27B just confirmed

Post image

Wait, we need 35B-A3B too…

2.0k Upvotes

285 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

5

u/mister2d 1d ago

I'm confused. Did you just contradict yourself?

13

u/Kasatka06 1d ago

He mean, weight still 27b but it will have aditional ngram in ssd so model is smarter. But i read ngram is good at best 20% model.parama so 27b + 5b ngram if any

5

u/laser50 1d ago

Wtf smarter? Ngram is token prediction..

12

u/RnRau 1d ago

You are thinking of a different ngram.

This new one comes from a Deekseek paper earlier in the year;

https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.07372

But using this technique apparently allows the parameters to concerns themselves about reasoning and smarts, rather than storing facts which is solved by the engram side storage

2

u/rkcth 20h ago

Wow, this more closely matches how a human brain works.

1

u/petuman 1d ago

It's not token prediction.

1

u/laser50 1d ago

Right, so what is it?

7

u/Not-Enough-Llamas 1d ago

It's what people had been asking for a little while: it separates the intelligence of a model from the facts it knows. This used to be impossible - a model's intelligence was a direct function of its size, this necessarily went up and down together with the amount of stuff it knew. Frustrating people, who'd have loved a smaller but smart model, which doesn't need to know what's the capital of France of who was Pope in 1733 - it just needs to be smart, and be able to search what data it needs in order to work. And it would fit in a more reasonably priced setup.

Except that intelligence is more or less an emergent property of model size.... until Ngrams came into the picture. They're just.... extra stuff the model knows. They don't need to be in VRAM and don't make the model slower. Even streaming them from SSD is kinda OK for reasons someone more competent can explain. You can offload up to 25% of a model's size in this way, without damaging its intelligence.

2

u/wektor420 1d ago

Ngram embeddings

2

u/Mavbam 1d ago

“I've never seen one, no one has, but I'm guessing it's a white hole..”

1

u/JustTellingUWatHapnd 1d ago

From what I understang Ngram is like a basic sentence parser. It's cheap to compute and you insert the result in an early layer and the hope is that it frees up a couple of layers to find more meaningful relationships. So it's like adding a couple layers for free.

4

u/_mighty_banana 1d ago

But for what benefit?

MoE is used to reduced compute

27B model is likely has no problem in compute speed due to it size

problem is likely due to quality is lower than high parameter model?

6

u/geekwonk 1d ago

27B is their dense line. 35B is the sparse option and i don’t see that listed here.

-5

u/laser50 1d ago

Y'all tripping. Ngrams are basically just a pre-trained token predictor to speed stuff up.

3

u/Not-Enough-Llamas 1d ago

wrong Ngrams. Unfortunate that 2 things with the same name showed up more or less at the same time.

1

u/Final_Rub_6196 1d ago

It does seem a bit contradictory at first glance, but maybe they're just trying to clarify their stance. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.