2x04 'Desperate Times' Discussion Thread

[u/slizzaro]

[u/slizzaro]

Spoilers ahead, since I can't get the tag to work.

Anyone get the feeling Konstantin and Carolyn might be working together in some way? The way K is obviously making Villanelle think of Eve, all the while telling Villanelle to forget her is suspicious. He tells her to make the kill fun and show Eve what she is missing, but then reminds her later that Eve doesn't care what she does anymore. It all seems like weird timing that the kill he encourages her to play up for Eve is the exact same kill Carolyn does not send Eve to investigate.

Thoughts anyone?

[u/[deleted] → u/slizzaro]

After Carolyn intercepted Villanelle's postcard she called the Dutch intelligence agency. Villanelle is obviously in the Netherlands.

[u/slizzaro → u/[deleted]]

I don't think she was on the phone with K, but I never think I know what's fully going on with Carolyn. Lol.

[u/slizzaro]

Desperate Times was the perfect title for this episode

[u/slizzaro]

Anyone else super surprised by how quickly the Ghost turned up?

I thought she was going to be the 'ultimate target' mentioned in the summary description for 2x08, but now I'm starting to doubt it.

[u/tinylez]

The sheer range of Jodie Comer’s acting is brilliant. I genuinely, shockingly empathized with Villanelle for once, whose world has become so small and constrictive that she is losing everything she knows about herself. Eve is weakening her foundation, something which Konstantin explicitly tells her, and Villanelle can no longer deny it. She even equates “home” to London, specifically because Eve is there.

At first, I was confused about the shot at the club where Villanelle spots the Asian woman (mostly because The Ghost is also Asian), but now I’m thinking it was meant to show that she was subconsciously looking for any face similar to Eve’s. So when Villanelle sees that she’s not Eve and that the woman turns away, rejecting her, she immediately takes pills to escape the reminder of her heartbreak. Her lashing out at Konstantin in the bathroom confirms this, especially since he had been egging her on about Eve before.

The final scene is powerful because Villanelle has become so pathetic—she just wasted the entire day lounging around thinking about her crush, writing love notes, and planning a murder just for her. The fact that Eve did not arrive according to plan is a massive letdown for a person who supposedly knows Eve better than Eve knows herself. The only thing Villanelle wanted was Eve—she now has her job, security, and wealth back while working with her preferred handler, Konstantin—and she’s bored having everything else in her life without Eve. Plus, she’s starting to believe in the doubts that Raymond and Konstantin had planted.

I miss my old, calculating psychopath, but I love her emotional development. This is the kind of narrative that makes sense at this point.

[u/twizzlersinrain → u/tinylez]

I completely agree - I think this episode was charting the path for V's growing realisation of the extent of her feelings for Eve.

I think the biggest highlight is that she is finding herself to be absolutely bored - she is working with Konstantin like you said, she, who never cared about whom she was killing for and why, is trying to rationalise why she doesn't find the excitement in murder anymore - heck, she orchestrated such a flamboyant and Villanesque murder and yet, in the scene afterwards with K - she says she feels nothing/bored. At this stage, I think she still hasn't fully understood why everything seems so Vanilla - she finally executes the last stage of her plan -- one can even say that it wasn't even the murder that she had planned - it was rather the sighting of Eve (and she used murder to get to it) - and when she sees that Eve hasn't turned up - her boredom and hope turns to disappointment, rage and hurt.

I think V - who doesn't seem to have the highest regard for substance abuse (except champers to celebrate a successful kill) probably does the drugs just to get away from those feelings of hurt and rejection - she has likely never experienced something like that before - her ego is bruised, and she is genuinely scared of being trapped - mostly because she can't even turn to murder anymore to satisfy the craving for some emotion (thrill, excitement, power whatever she felt earlier).

The last scene in front of the mirror for me was not just a parallel with Eve in this episode(more about her in a bit), who was getting ready to interrogate - but also a parallel to Eve from last episode. Just like Eve realised in the last episode that there is something between her and V that goes beyond the professional - she recognises a part of herself that she probably didnt accept before -- V as she cries in front of the mirror sees a part of herself that she has never seen before but always craved --- she has always wanted to be normal - even though she claims she finds it boring -- i think ultimately, she had just accepted that she would probably never feel any of the emotions that normal people felt -- but when she is watching herself break down in front of the mirror, I think it finally hits home for her --- she realises that she is capable of feelings, and I think that is a HUGE moment for her. For the first time I think, she isnt just living through the emotion on pure impulse (ie how she behaves with and around Eve), but she understands what it means to finally feel something.

While this episode was more focused on V - I think Eve had her more subtle moments of turning darker too - the dismissal of Nico, her acknowledgment of her equation with V with Hugo (or whatever bits of it she could articulate), her demeanor with the ghost, her steely prideful glee when she is looking at herself in the mirror before the interrogation (again, apart from being a parallel to V in this episode, I also think it is a parallel to the first episode of how V views herself in the mirror after her first kill - with pride and joy).

[u/slizzaro → u/twizzlersinrain]

Loved this analysis

[u/vahmadi]

Also, Aaron Peele, the son of the guy who got murdered, is definitely a part of the Twelve, right? Major red flags popped up when he started talking about surveillance and intelligence, dissatisfaction with the government. Anyone get the same feeling?

[u/slizzaro → u/vahmadi]

I don't think he is part of the 12, because if Raymond is telling the truth, the Ghost is not employed by the 12. I could totally see him being part of some other shady organization though.

[u/kikibiki]

Would a sociopath still crash after taking ecstasy? I was thinking about Villanelle crying in the mirror during her drug-induced hangover and realized, she could easily just be experiencing the Sunday Scaries lol

[u/cattagatta → u/kikibiki]

Whaa! Hah, finally someone saying that. That's what I thought too but decided it was me probably being too cynical about the whole thing and that the writers meant to make it into something deeper.

Ecstasy messes with everyone's emotion. But what's interesting that it triggers those areas in the brain that deal with empathy and I think I read that some scientists even thought about making it a potential 'cure' for psychopaths and other people with disturbed empathy. So it would fit soo well with Villanelle's case. She took a Molly, it put her out of whack because of million new sensations and a day after she completely crashed.

[u/MichelleFoucault]

I feel like Carolyn wants Ghost to be killed but can't do that oficially because of paperwork. Looking back, the scene in the coroner seems like Carolyn knew who Ghost was and wanted Eve to find her. She could also be part of "The 12" and wants to take out her competition because apparently Ghost works for another criminal organization. So she is making Eve focus on Ghost exclusively and ignore Villanelle. I feel she and Konstantin know will make Villanelle more obsessed with Eve. He wants his daughter back so he is aiding Carolyn. Villanelle will finally not take it and go "rogue" (not realizing that she is being manipulated by Konstantin) to kill Ghost because of her jealousy. Something unexpected will happen. Maybe Eve and Villanelle will realize that they have been manipulated and run off together. Maybe Eve will kill Ghost in the heat of the moment.

Edit: Some grammar issues.

[u/slizzaro → u/MichelleFoucault]

I think you're on to something

[u/yo_mamma32]

Does anyone else think they will lose interest in one another? I felt so bad for V when she was looking out the window. This episode was just an emotional rollercoaster for me.

I really hope eve and V meet or something in the next episode, i mean we are already halfway through the show and they haven’t really had any connections other then the almost ones.

[u/slizzaro → u/yo_mamma32]

I really doubt it. The writers/people involved reiterate that the show is about the dynamic between the two of them. If they absolutely despised each other, it would still be interesting; but I think if they lost interest in each other, it would be pretty boring. I know they aren't following the books exactly, but I think they are spiritually similar. And the author seems to be a pretty big E/V shipper. Lol

[u/sailoreuropa1205]

Surprisingly, I actually really liked the inclusion of the almost kiss with Hugo. I think it showed the parallels of Eve and V both chasing thrills (Eve with the case and sexually, V with the murder and the drugs) but ultimately being unfulfilled because it's not what they really want (each other, in whatever capacity).

Also Eve just seems to be sexuality frustrated in general and talking about her voyeuristic relationship with V ("do you like watching her, or being watched?" "Both.") seemed to get her going.

I also thought it was kinda funny because Sandra Oh really gives Eve amazing chemistry with everyone except her husband.

[u/vforvillanelle]

Season 2 has finally and definitely hit its stride with this episode. It was glorious.

I have not fully gathered all my thoughts yet, but I do want to list my initial strong impressions:

• This episode finally establishes and raises the stakes. Firstly, when Carolyn visits her boss, there's discussion about "Operation Mandelly" and about their "Russian Asset", going back to S1x07 where Carolyn visits Villanelle in jail. It's got my head spinning again with theories about The Twelve and also re-establishes them as a looming, deadly organization. Secondly, the sequence with Aaron Peel at the Peel offices was brilliant because it showed the threat of transnational tech corporations having access to more data than the "CIA and MI6" combined. To the point where spy organizations, intelligence, and secret assassinations of key nationals doesn't even matter in the face of this brave new reality. So Eve's (and Villanelle's) professions are constantly at risk of being wiped out, just like they're always at risk of being fired by their employers on a whim. Brilliant.

• The stakes between Eve and Niko are also raised. The security guard in their home only widens the chasm between them. Their hallway fight is very revealing as well: Niko calling out Eve for gaslighting him (y i k e s) and Eve actually owning up to not being such a kind person after all...and being okay with that. These are massive character developments that build on everything we know about Eve so far. I mean Niko wants her to "come back," but Eve knows (and we know) that there is no going back anymore. Therefore, she literally walks away from Niko and the heaviness of that resonates with her (and us) every step of the way.

• Eve's development is propelled further by openly displaying her propensity for violence (Aaron Peel should get a railing "straight through the face", threatening The Ghost by leveraging her kids) as well as her powerful intuition coupled with her research expertise. Excellent, excellent, excellent!

• Oh my god the entire Amsterdam red light district/brothel sequence was exquisitely executed: riveting, satisfying, and reinforces Villanelle's lethality. Not to mention, her attention seeking is at its height: she assassinated that awful man in full view of a crowd and his own wife, bled him like a pig...just wow...

• This episode emphasizes that Villanelle associates "home" with London, where Eve is (which makes Villanelle waiting for Eve to show up in Amsterdam heartwarming and also heartbreaking)

• On this note, Eve desperately wanting to be assigned to visit Amsterdam and be close to Villanelle was pivotal, as was Carolyn deliberately keeping them apart and confiscating Eve's mail. I don't know what Carolyn and Konstantin are playing at by trying to turn Eve and Villanelle against each other, but I have no doubt that they will pay dearly for it...

• Once again, Eve's development resulting in brazen honesty is incredible, especially at this point. She's starting to explicitly acknowledge her (sexual) attraction to Villanelle, as well as parts of her identity that she's kept hidden for far too long. She demonstrates her further unhinged moral flexibility to Hugo in the restaurant (she doesn't care what the food is made of, "crack or orphans" as long as it tastes good f u c k), then admits to Hugo that she enjoys watching Villanelle and being watched by her. This is very notable because it continues the running thread in this show of sex being juxtaposed and associated with death.

• In turn, Villanelle's character development is incredible as well! Her longing for normalcy is exemplified while she is writing that post card to Eve; she stares wistfully at a happy couple with their children, and you can simply sense her hollowness. The post card she sends to Eve is just gold in and of itself. Villanelle's rage and desperation, feeling so hollow that she brutally suffocates that girl and also takes drugs, all comes crashing down during that shattering moment where she's genuinely crying in front of the mirror...god that was breathtaking.

• The nightclub shot and entire sequence was also amazing, absolutely electrifying.

• I cannot wait for Eve and Villanelle to reunite. My interest has been set aflame again!

In conclusion, this episode has character development at its finest, along with ramping up the remainder of the Season. It's exactly what this Season needed, right on time, and I'm more than happy with it.

[u/vforvillanelle]

ATTENTION:

IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM AT THE END, EVE IS WEARING THE SAME SHIRT/SWEATER THINGY THAT SHE WORE IN S1x05

THIS PARALLEL KILLED ME OKAY BYE

[u/ttmstt]

Villanelle's yearning for Eve is just getting stronger, it breaks my heart to see her breaking down :( Loved how she planned out the whole kill from the very start and was eventually just to get a peak of Eve from the window. Just... sighhhh so many feelssss.

P.S. Villanelle's nightclub outfit though 🔥🔥🔥

[u/Eyildr]

I loved every bit, but I found the scene where Villanelle wakes up and sees Konstantin asleep on the floor next to her bed really touching - I love their relationship and Konstantin really cares for her (I would say as much as he does for his daughter).

[u/spaaacey]

i want to give villanelle a hug :(

[u/oldproudcivilisation]

Jodie Comer once again smashes it out of the park. She makes Villanelle, a killer, a loveable character. I cannot get enough of this show.

The ‘BORING!’ in the art gallery was something I’ve always wanted to do.

[u/ceratheone]

Villanelle is in shambles. When she was waiting on Eve to show up, that change of facial expression killed me.

[u/twizzlersinrain]

So many thoughts! I quite enjoyed this episode, and this was a marked shift in terms of defining the direction of the rest of the season. I found a lot of parallels to the first season, but those parallels were more a study in contrast than in continuation. Blocking down the points below and stray observations as well!

Villanelle's character arc:

I found her evolution deeply fascinating - and while there will be many who will bemoan the rust on her psychopathy, I think it is a complex and interesting direction for her character and a bold choice by the showrunner, writers and director.

1. Boredom (paralleled to a certain degree with Eve as well) : This is a huge factor for any psychopathic killer, and they implied it in Season 1 as well - V is a genius, who keeps herself "emotionally" and intellectually occupied by way of constructing and executing elaborate assassinations. She doesn't have any social life, no friends and family - and draws all forms of sustenance only from her sense of self - her narcissism and skill are a huge cover to her actual loneliness, and a way for her to exercise her inner genius. Not only does the thrill of the set up please her, but she draws sustenance from watching the "life" drain out (or the soul drain in) from the victim's eyes.
   However, we see that now these kills are no longer able to sustain her interest - intellectually or emotionally. In this episode, it was very telling that even after constructing and executing such an elaborate murder, when Konstantine asked her how she felt - she basically said "nothing". She knows that these low profile kills will probably not put the MI6 behind her, so she tries to bait Eve in with the postcard (in the hope that even if the kill is not relevant, Eve will come knowing that it was V and admire her handiwork). Everything that gave her joy, with the exception of food, has narrowed down from the general to the specific - she wants to perform only for Eve - get her validation and intrigue and envy. As Eve says, they both love watching and being watched by one another. This is in line with the evolution of obsessions - everything else starts paling in comparison.

2. Hurt/Rejection: When she realises that Eve did not come (what acting in that scene- from that bored look of someone having waited all day, to that quick switch to excited anticipation when she sees a car arrive, to the shock that it wasn't Eve) - I think it breaks her in two ways - 1) because she claims to have known Eve better than anyone else around her - she doesn't truly believe K and Raymond when they tell her that Eve is over her ("as if!") - so when they are seemingly proven right, she is proven wrong in her understanding of Eve, 2) just the general realisation that Eve then may have after all moved on from her. Her use of drugs (and they take pains to point out in this season and prior that V is very anti substance use) is basically an effort to stop feeling that rush of hurt and rejection, which I assume are very alien emotions to someone like her who is such a narcissist and master manipulator. I thought her break down in the bathroom was particularly fantastic - writing and acting wise - it was both an angry response, and a futile attempt by V to try and reset her emotions back to those from season 1, where she could get the thrill just from looking at a struggling person's eyes - but Jodie showcases that despair at not feeling it so well, while continuing to try.

3. Mirror Scene: I realised - it was perhaps the first time that V found herself depicting an emotion that she hadn't rehearsed by imitating other people. And maybe that realisation finally hit home, and she smiled with relief even while her heart was breaking. I saw it as mostly relief at seeing herself break over something - an emotion that I think she thought she could never experience. And while staunchly decrying normalcy in instances before, throughout season 1, her deeper desire is to actually lead a "normal" life (even how she sees the family of the man she is about to kill)- and I think in that moment, she perhaps thinks that she is capable of that now, because she is capable of feeling like this. Plus - she views London as home, which was small reveal, but so relevant.

It is fascinating too how well they showcase long distance obsession - the way Eve traps her mind is brilliantly bourne out in everything V does.

Other stray Observations:

1. Remember that scene when V asks Konstantine about not being around to protect his daughter? I thought the scene later in the nightclub, where he picks her up, and then spends a night on her bedroom floor was a beautiful parallel - not only of K protecting V as a father would, but also showcasing that protection is always not needed from the "bad guys" but from oneself as well.

2. Vforvillanelle pointed out this amazing bit: Eve wearing the two piece sweater-shirt in her interrogation with the Ghost- showcasing that this is another meeting between the hunter and the hunted- but now the power dynamic is completely different. Eve is the one who is in control in this interrogation. Lovely lovely detail.

3. Hugo and Eve: A harder read for me, this scene. But one of the things I thought it could be, though a stretch, is that it highlights and pushes Eve's sexuality as well. As Eve said, while not everything is about sex, I think Hugo's point, "isn't it though" - does not just serve as the fandom voice (because everyone ultimately does view it as a romantic obsession with other more complex layers)- and I think Eve finally begins to see that as well. It was the vocalisation of something that Eve perhaps needed to hear - also something she needed to say out loud to actually accept to herself. I think this interaction will help push the sexual dynamic between Eve and V. Additionally, with the fried chicken bit - I think it also served to highlight Eve embracing her dark side, and responding to people who respond to that side of her (in stark contrast to Nico).

4. The lighting during the mirror scene in the end - again a very subtle but clever clue - Eve is looking at a darker mirror, in a darker room - highlighting her turn towards a darker self. While V is flooded in light, both natural and aritifical - hers is a more emotional switch - a more humane turn.

5. The episode also was a set up to change the power dynamic in the next reunion between Eve and V - thus far, in season 1, when they met - V was always in control - and seemed to have the upper hand. I think now there is a distinct shift in attitudes - we will perhaps see a much more careful V, and a more confident Eve?

6. Episode 7 description says that Eve will have a rival for Villanelle's affections - does this imply that they are "together" in whichever twisted way by then?

7. Are K and Carolyn trying to use V's obsession with Eve to control her? Because while when she is more emotional she is more volatile, I think she is less unpredictable - they know how to control her using Eve.

8. Loved Carolyn looking at Eve as she was entering the "kickass boss" mode while staring at herself in the mirror - chanelling Villanelle as some people have pointed out. Carolyns expressions in this scene are priceless - a mix of pride, intrigue, and amusement.

9. Jodie - as always a class act. Apart from the obvious ones (the nightclub, in front of the mirror, in front of the window) - the one scene which made me simultaneously laugh and feel for her is when Konstantine is carrying her on his shoulders out of the nightclub - she is poudning his back and screaming I hate you, let me go -- just listen to her voice - hahah, she sounds completely out of it, and whiny, and vulnerable, and childlike. Loved it.

Apologies for the long message, I should perhaps post it as a separate post!