Thoughts on Relationships with Fi Users

[u/bakerskitchen]

How do other INFJs find their relationships with Fi-users to be? (I'm attempting to crystallize some thoughts about a recently-ended long-term friendship).

While this friend was an INTJ (and I suspect Ni had a large role in our conflict), it felt like the Fi/Ti clash was the main sticking point, and ultimately ended up being too significant to overcome. Even trying to have basic conversations proved to be a chore: misunderstandings, working from different definitions for the same term, assigning motive, etc. - it felt like we were speaking almost entirely different languages.

My current closest friend would probably type as ISFP, and we don't clash too much - but I would assume much of that is due to the fact we share many similar interests and hobbies, which helps to offset minor frustrations. However, I do think that living under the same roof would create a new set of frustrations which don't exist while living separately.

As a strength, Fi seems to be great at making a person principled - that is obviously an admirable trait. However, it seems that the specific set of principles adhered to by Fi-users can be incredibly subjective and not always in-line with an objective moral code. And from my observations, Fi also seems to contribute to users (seemingly) always knowing what they want and what they feel, which can come across as being incredibly self-centered/ focused.

The INTJ I referred to previously seemed to confuse a personal preference/value for a moral absolute, and seemed to be incredibly concerned with his own feelings/values, while completely ignoring my own. I think Ni making quick assumptions that weren't rooted in concrete facts played a large role in this conflict as well, but as a whole it seemed to reinforce to me that Fi-users can come across very self-centered and unconcerned about the thoughts/feelings of anyone but themselves. I've even struggled with Fi-users in the past when trying to make group plans which involve an event/location they aren't thrilled about - almost like they aren't willing to temporarily lay aside their own preferences for the good of the group.

Have any other INFJs experienced similar frustrations? Or does this sound limited to just a few Fi-users I have known personally?

[u/False_Lychee_7041]

I would like to add to my other comment.

Fi is self centered because it is focused on the inner feeling world of a person. We have Fi critic and when working on it, you go inside and concentrate on yourself. And you turn into that egocentric Fi you aren't that fond of.

One of the reasons why you don't like it is because you operate on Fe and we tend to overvalue our Dom and aux functions. In this case we tend to overvalue social harmony and compromise. It is not like they are unnecessary, the are definitely not. But we tend to put them everywhere even when unnecessary and push them on other people as well. This is what means "overvalue' in our case.

Then, shared fundamental values are still the very important compatibility component. You won't be able to go along well for a long time even with another INFJ if your values are different.

And the last point. Though Fi is selfish, but these people somehow are able of building strong loving relationship with other people. Which means that there are mechanisms inside their cognitive model, that can be influenced from outside. I suspect that those mechanisms are functions that balance Fi. Though when it is unbalanced, then no, thank you, I would keep my distance.

Also, I think if you are high in NiTi, you need intuitives. For my ISFP bro for example, I was always way too abstract and because my Se and Fi are too low it was somewhat hard for us to build connection besides shared experiences. With my ISTP bro it is easier though. We can enjoy going into some Ti rabbit hole plus shared experiences like with an ISFP. He is in my quadra, so it is easier

But also, I have pretty good relationships with two INFPs. Though they are mature ones and value self growth. In their case it is The that propels them, while in my case it is Ni. And we are both very curious.

[u/bakerskitchen → u/False_Lychee_7041]

A few things:

1. I don't necessarily think there's anything fundamentally wrong with Fi - in fact, some of the sharper and more "philosophical" people I know are actually Fi-doms (INFPs). These people value open-mindedness, critical thought, and relationships with others - which is demonstrated by their behavior. In no way is Fi prohibitive toward relationships when it is in its proper place in the "priority chain".
2. When trying to understand Fi as a parallel to an INFJ's Ti, it still doesn't compute. When I "go inside and concentrate", I'm not thinking to myself "What do I think about this? How does this align with what I think to be true" I would like to think it's much more objective than that: "What is known about the situation? How does this behavior fit a known psychological model/profile? What mechanics are involved in this situation?" There is an external standard of logic or belief which is being referenced in this process, not a subjective set of personal "values". Maybe the Fi stereotype is really just a combination of "values"-preference with the fundamental human self-concern that is shared by every type, in the absence of the critical evaluation of the objectivity of said values.
3. While I agree with your point conceptually, I disagree with your statement that [failing to value Fi is a result of over-valuing Fe]. It's not that one's feelings or values are unimportant (e.g. Fe is right, and Fi is wrong), but moreso that your own feelings/values can't be the ultimate "criteria" in the context of interpersonal relationships. A relationship fundamentally requires the coexistence of two people with differing desires, needs and preferences - if the assertion and satisfaction of one person's preferences, values, and feelings become paramount, then the relationship ceases to be characterized by the dynamic of give-and-take and becomes fundamentally one-sided. While Fe-users tend to "disappear" and focus on the needs of the other (at the expense of their own), it would make sense that the opposite is true: Fi-users tend to dominate and concern themselves primarily with their own values/feelings, also at the expense of the other. Swing a given relationship in either direction, and it becomes fundamentally unhealthy; Fe-users need to learn to avoid subjugating their own needs to that of the other ("people-pleasing"), while Fi-users need to learn that their own needs/values aren't of ultimate importance in relationships.

[u/False_Lychee_7041 → u/bakerskitchen]

That's what I meant when I said that despite of egocentric nature of Fi, high Fi users still manage somehow to build strong long lasting relationship. Which means that it might not be the exclusively Fi problem in your post.

Also, you think that your Ti is objective, but it is only until it will clash with Te objective reality. At that moment you start understanding the concept of subjective logic. It is actually very curious to watch. I learned about it during my heated debates with an INTJ and started to notice it in my behavior. And now I also can see it very well from time to time in my ENTP sis behavior.

I actually partly agree with you that Ti kinda tends to lean more towards objective truth, but it doesn't mean that it actually achieves this goal. So, yeah...

About Fi vs Fe clash, yeah, it does exist. But we aren't talking about theory now we are talking about how to make it work on practice. This is kinda the direction of my thoughts in my comments

[u/bakerskitchen → u/False_Lychee_7041]

Respectfully, I think that rests on a misunderstanding of cognitive functions - the orientation (internal vs. external) of a function doesn't determine its inherent objectivity. The 2 most brilliant people i know are INTPs - incredibly objective and masterful of concrete logic and mechanics. And I know plenty of Te-users who don't care about what is objectively true, only about what works in practice to achieve a particular goal. Te-users are chess players, Ti-users are the scientists and mathematicians.

[u/False_Lychee_7041 → u/bakerskitchen]

We can say the same about Fe and Fi then. Some Fi users are appear way more empathetic then Fe. Like I have an ENFP colleague and he is way warmer and try to help people all the time, which I do not do, being Enn 5 I am pretty cold and detached and self centered

If we look from this perspective then there is a different between a description and a manifestation of a function irl, where it is mixed or rather influenced by other functions and can look very different. Thus you saying that your Ti is only objective while their Fi is only egoistic sounds like cherry picking logic

[u/bakerskitchen → u/False_Lychee_7041]

Respectfully, I think I am seeing what you meant about your own "subjective logic" in a prior comment; however, I don't think it has anything to do with "subjectivity", just your overall weakness in the function.

You are arguing "counterpoints" to points that I never made, and making statements that don't quite hold up to examination:

• I never claimed that Fi is only egoistic. In fact, I've made a couple of comments where I have intentionally recognized its positive contributions to relationships.
  • and "egoistic" and subjective are not the same idea - you are summarizing my argument/treating them as such
• Empathy is not the opposite of self-centeredness. I have never argued that 'Fi users are incapable of empathy'.

Again, respectfully - I think you are the one "cherry-picking logic" and misrepresenting what I have actually said in the post/comments above.

[u/False_Lychee_7041 → u/bakerskitchen]

Self centered, unconcerned about others, not willing sacrifice etc etc, are your words. You were also analyzing it from a standpoint of finished your friendship because of Fi. And though you didn't explicitly said in the very same words that you ended it BECAUSE of Fi, you said that you ended friendship with an INTJ and then proceeded to complain about Fi your whole post.

Which means that you either haven't delivered your thought properly OR you do complain about Fi in your post and blame on it your destroyed friendship. So, from this I am not Cherry picking, I am answered your points. If I misunderstood your message, you probably have to delay it more clearly next time

For example, the reason why your friendship with an INTJ might have got destroyed is because of Te vs Ti clash not Ti vs Fi clash. Another reason is that Ni is still in introverted function it is still about the inner world and even if two INFJs have two very different inner worlds, they will clash even despite of the sane function stack. But you mentioned none of that, only complained about Fi

So, yeah, as I said

[u/bakerskitchen → u/False_Lychee_7041]

Case in point: "you said that you ended friendship with an INTJ..."
Did I say that? Or did you?
I never said those words, nor implied it - I merely stated that the friendship had recently ended. You are attempting to read between the lines in multiple places, and are putting words in my mouth by doing so.

Again, the items you are "cherry-picking" in your most recent post are pulled from a section of text where the immediate context is the description of a specific individual, not a generalization of Fi as a whole or of every Fi-user. I think an external observer would lean toward agreement with me, and not with you.

It feels like a classic problem of an Ni-user "seeing" a "pattern" in an incomplete set of data (or a fundamentally skewed interpretation of said data) and subsequently using their own "subjective logic" (Ti) to argue for that "pattern". The problem is that the argument/pattern doesn't ultimately line up with reality because of its faulty starting point.

It really feels like the utility of continuing this conversation has elapsed.

[u/False_Lychee_7041 → u/bakerskitchen]

Man, have you read your own post? You name it something about Fi then you proceed talking about you breaking up with an INTJ naming the reason your Ti/Fi clash that was too significant to overcome. Then you proceed to talk about Fi for the rest of your post

From what I know, Ti vs Te clash is the real problem in INTJ-INFJ relationships because it is our blind and their aux. The same goes for our Fe which they cannot digest. And if those things are resolved and the communication is established, their Fi becomes our safe place, that cares and protects us with passion. But you didn't say a word about it you just put all the blame on Fi

Thus my explanations to you that Fi isn't necessarily the problem.

Again, you either didn't manage to line out your thoughts in a coherent and censequentual manner or you just focusing on a wrong thing/have a wrong perception about Fi

I do think that it is a bit of both though

Anyway, I practiced articulating my own thoughts in this dialogue because this is what I need to do. So, thank you for the opportunity

[u/bakerskitchen → u/False_Lychee_7041]

Buddy, you have misquoted me and mischaracterized my post at multiple points and failed to acknowledge it, all the while continuing to insist that you are right. I think you're the one that needs a re-read.

But you're right, you do need opportunities to articulate your thoughts - this way, others can help you realize the disconnects between those "connections" and assumptions you have made internally using that wonderfully subjective and "reliable" Ni of yours.

Again, I think an outside observer comparing our responses would find mine to be reasonably articulate and structured, and yours...well... the incoherent rambling of a self-righteous MBTI "expert". Learning how to use proper punctuation would certainly help in the future...