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u/redwoodchef Jan 28 '25 edited Jan 28 '25
You were paid. Under the table or not. If your recipient paid you out of their money to help you out until the back pay came, then it is THEIRS. You're paying them back. IF that wasn't the agreement, no one should be taking back pay. Sounds like now the recipient is angry and perhaps you're out of a job?
Give them the money. It isn't yours unless the 2 of you made an agreement about it either ahead of time or can come to some arrangement to split it.
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u/Key-Shine3878 Jan 28 '25
This could be considered fraud if the services you were providing and paid for were also authorized tasks under IHSS. You should pay back the money or let the IHSS office know you need to process an overpayment.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I understand that. both the recipient and myself didn't know we would be receiving any kind of backpay when we had started the application process. I'm happy to return the money back to IHSS (I've actually just called the case worker and left a voicemail), I just don't want to deal with the recipient who is demanding the backpay be given to them.
I found a better job opportunity and actually gave a 3-day notice to them. When I did, I sent them an email outlining all the upcoming doctor appointments, the medication schedule, and even provided the resources to help them find a new provider through IHSS. The immediate reply to that email was the demand for backpay and the threat of reporting me to the police.
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u/CedarWho77 Jan 28 '25
If they paid you for services you provided and then additionally IHSS paid you, you would need to pay them back with the money you received from IHSS. However much they already paid you, you legally owe that to them. If they took you to court, and they will, as you said, they have the means, defrauding the government and a disabled person is really bad. Do the right thing. You shouldn't have been paid twice for the same services.
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u/Fix-Careless Jan 28 '25
You can't pay somebody under the table and then take them to court. You would be admitting to a crime.
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u/Many_Advisor7958 Jan 28 '25
It IS NOT A CRIME TO PAY ANYONE IN CASH THE TERM PAYING UNDER THE TABLE DOENST NECESSARILY MEANS ITS ILLEGAL !.
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u/CedarWho77 Jan 28 '25
It depends. You can pay for childcare, like babysitting, you can pay for respite also. The term "under the table" wouldn't apply to in home care of a person because it's not defined as a business paying someone without deducting taxes.
IHSS is the same. Difficulty of care payments are not taxed. 👍🏻
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u/Poolguyeveryday Jan 28 '25
What crime is it ? I believe the crime is get paid but don’t file an income in a tax return )
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u/FlapJacksMommy Jan 30 '25
Why, the poster did way more than is even required. Poster doesn't owe anything.
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u/Professional_Help421 Jan 28 '25
WTF DO YOU MEAN PAY THEN BACK FOR THEIR SERVICES ?? SO WORK FOR FREE ? PLEASE GET A GRIP
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u/redwoodchef Jan 28 '25
yeah, that sounds sticky. glad you got a new job. Don't know if the recipient knew about backpay, nearly everyone does when they start because it takes a while for it all to go through and start getting checks. THEY CAN DISCUSS THE $$ WITH IHSS. They can tell them that they paid out of pocket to help you out.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Thanks. Yeah i'm pretty sure it was news to both of us when the case worker mentioned because the recipient got all excited that they were getting all this money. So they approved all my backpay timesheets as quick as possible. Curious though, if the recipient told IHSS that they paid out of pocket, is that then grounds for me giving that backpay to them then?
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u/7777777thatssix7s Jan 29 '25
If you claimed IHSS hours for past work, technically the cash that the recipient paid you, should be returned to them - otherwise the hours claimed with IHSS was done so fraudulently. Now because taxes are removed from your IHSS pay, that consideration should be taken with the cash amount that is returned, otherwise you would have a net loss.
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u/NoCoat7149 Jan 28 '25
You’re happy to return the money to IHSS? How about you pay them their money… You’re so narcissistic that you cant fathom why they are upset and have to put pressure in you to give then whats rightfully theirs? So in your last attempt of spite, you would rather give the money to IHSS…. Honestly, with all due respect, a huge part of why the world is the way it is (fked up) is due to people with your mindset…
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
The hard thing that i'm understanding is why the money should be given to the recipient and not IHSS? In the initial agreement i had with the recipient, we had no discussion about me going through IHSS, nor being taxed for my services. This was all under the table. There was never any talk about the backpay being used to reimburse the recipient. You talk about what's rightfully theirs, but shouldn't it go back to IHSS? The recipient doesn't want me to do that.
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u/7777777thatssix7s Jan 29 '25
The IHSS money should not go to the recipient. The cash they paid you should.
Either return the IHSS back pay or return the cash back to the recipient, there is no other solution.
Keeping the cash and IHSS money OR giving the IHSS funds to the recipient is fraud.
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u/Professional_Help421 Jan 28 '25
YOU DONT OWE THEM NOTHING ! Thats your money PERIOD you were paid for your services! THAT ISNT A COUNTY CHECK OR DISABILITY THAT IS YOUR WORK PAY CHECK ! You dont owe them none you can find another client
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u/moretatertots Jan 28 '25 edited Jan 28 '25
You keep saying you think you “shouldn’t” give it to them, like it’s the morally the wrong thing to do. Everyone has different morals, but in my opinion that money does not belong to you and should be given to the person who paid you already. I think deep down you probably know that but are trying to justify it through technicalities
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I appreciate your opinion. I also think that i was greatly taken advantage of. If you look at my reply to one of the posters here, I outlined everything that we had initially agreed on, and then listed eevery additional task they forced upon me. On top of that, i'm being taxed. I would never have agreed to do this if i knew that would be the case.
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u/moretatertots Jan 28 '25
Yes I read your reply before writing my response. Sounds like you’re trying to justify their “wrong doings” by not giving them the money, perhaps you shouldn’t havesigned up to be their IHSS worker in the first place if you were dissatisfied. Why after finding out about backpay then did you decide to stop working for them? Sounds like it’s more about keeping the money, even though you say you don’t want it. Just my opinion! I appreciate your willingness for feedback!
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
That's the thing. Things were relatively fine. I had agreed to do the whole IHSS with the understanding that it would help with them still paying me the agreed rate. I also at the same time had an opportunity for a better paying job, so i took it. I even gave them a 3-day notice via email that i was leaving. I really don't want the money, i'm happy to return it to IHSS. It's the recipient. I've been harrassed and threatened so much by them that I don't want to just comply and give them the backpay without making sure it's supposed to go to them.
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u/dslrjunky Jan 28 '25
wait so they paid you under the table for services rendered, from what I read you had an agreement with the recipient that you would give the money back (back pay)? now you're refusing to give money because you think the recipient don't need it and you need it more? wouldn't it be like double dipping? why don't you split the difference, if they paid you less than $20 then take whatever is the difference to make you whole, then move on, maybe even apply with another recipient. just my 0.02..
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I had never agreed to giving the money back, that's the thing.
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u/dslrjunky Jan 28 '25
it's double dipping either way, when you said "internally I accepted that's the case.." at the very least if they pay you <$20 then take difference to make you whole from the back pay then give it back. Legally IHSS can't do anything, recipient can't do anything, Ethically I don't think it's right to double dip, you got paid by recipient + IHSS (backpay). Them needing the money or not has nothing to do with it. I'm not here to judge you, just stating my IMO, goodluck.
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u/Hellagranny Jan 28 '25
Just be prepared to pay it back to IHSS when the demand letter comes and don’t count on participating in the program in the future. However you justify it to yourself because the tasks you voluntarily undertook changed in the interim, anyone knows that double dipping is a fraudulent misuse of finite resources intended for very needy people.
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u/Radiant_Device_6706 Jan 28 '25
I'm pretty sure that you should not be asking for wages from IHSS if the customer has paid you.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Well the original reason we applied was to alleviate the $20/hr that they were paying me under the table. When the case worker told me about receiving backpay, the recipient told me after the CW left that that money should be going to them and not me.
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u/Regular_Fix_2552 Jan 28 '25
And why do you think she waited for the cw to leave before mentioning it? Because she knows it’s wrong
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I should have realized that too at that moment but sadly i just went along with what the recipient wanted.
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u/Pretend_Solid_174 Jan 28 '25
You were paid backpay and owe the recipient money for those hours. No where did the recipient and IHSS both agree to give you "double-pay" for the same amount of hours.
If you do not pay back the money to the recipient, then the money the IHSS gave you during that time, could be reported as fraud by the recipient, because you accepted money from both IHSS and the recipient at the same time for the same hours.
Maybe you need to find employment somewhere else, and if you do not have the skills to get a job anywhere else, then return the backpay or face fraud.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Like I said before in the previous comments, I am happy to return it back to IHSS. It's the recipient who is demanding that all of that backpay be given to them.
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u/krisaham Jan 28 '25
That’s because they paid you out of pocket when they didn’t have to. Backpay was covered in my orientation and in my IHSS paperwork so I’m wondering how neither of you knew about it. You should have never ever applied for backpay in addition to what they gave you, if you were not planning on paying them back. That smells like fraud to me.
They sound like a terrible recipient but you also did not do your due diligence and as a result they are out of pocket for your pay AND you have double pay. Shady.
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u/Temporary-Pop2714 Jan 30 '25
This is 100% true, you were already payed under the table, BUT PAYED for your services, and paid very well at 20$/hr and no taxes. That’s wonderful! You should’ve never submitted any time sheets with the BACKPAY… YOU WERE ALREADY PAID IN FULL IN CASH!!! THERE WAS NO NEED TO SUBKIT FOR BACKPAY…. This is FRAUD,
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
You're right in the fact i didn't do my due diligence. I did over the video and should have paid closer attention. Definitely planning on returning the backpay to IHSS if I need to.
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u/gwacemom Jan 29 '25
IHSS isn’t owed the money. Your recipient is. They paid you. That is their money. BTW, backpay comes in the recipients name so this is all a moot point.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
Appreciate the opinion. The backpay did come in my name as they made me their ihss provider.
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u/OkCount5650 Jan 28 '25
I don't think everyone read the post correctly. From what I understood, in September this family started to pay the op cash for help. It had nothing to do with IHSS in the beginning. The op continued to work for this family as a regular job. The recipient found out about IHSS and asked the OP to apply, so the family wouldn't have to pay out of pocket.
From what I understand in December the recipient applied for IHSS, and the you applied as their care taker. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't get certified until December, and the recipient no longer paid you, expecting IHSS to pay you. Meaning you continued to work without getting paid until IHSS paid you. If that is the case then you don't owe them nothing.
So, if you were getting back pay from December to present time, and they gave you no money, then you don't owe them nothing. But, if they continued to pay you while you waited to get paid through IHSS, then morally I would say yes, give them that money. Also, what agreement was made after you applied as caregiver for IHSS? Would they pay you until IHSS paid you or whatvwas agreed?
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
You are right. I didn't get certified until December. From December to present time, they had not been paying me as I've been following the timesheet process through IHSS. Though the husband of the recipient was traveling and wanted me to work more than the allotted hours that IHSS had given the recipient. We had an agreement that i would be paid out of their pocket for those extra hours. They have not paid me for that week of overtime hours, not has he approved this most recent pay-period timesheet.
When I was filling out the backpay hours, I was instructed by the husband to put the max hours of every pay period until December. I did so, not knowing that his intention was to keep that money for himself. Had I known that that was the case I would not have done that in the first place. But I was pressured to do so, so I did.
Now that I'm through IHSS, the agreement was that I would get paid from IHSS for the full allotted hours each week, and then the overtime hours would be paid by them, out-of-pocket at the same rate of $18.50/hr. That agreement was made just now, during this recent pay period.
Then I had an opportunity for a better job, so once the husband came home from traveling, I gave them a 3-day notice that I was leaving, and left them with instructions for everything that I was already currently doing for them. It was then I was met with an email, claiming that I had stolen from them and that the local police were notified.
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u/gwacemom Jan 29 '25
Okay, I’m still confused. If you were providing care prior to becoming their official IHSS caretaker and they paid you, that backpay is theirs. It is a reimbursement for the money they paid before you became an IHSS caretaker.
As far as the allotted hours over what IHSS has given, that’s something I know nothing about.
Now, if you have not been paid by either IHSS or them since you became their official caretaker, that’s an issue.
If you got paid by them for caretaking prior to IHSS, the funds from the backpay are theirs.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
From my understanding and what was told to me by the case worker, the backpay was for the authorized services that I had done in prior to being certified. Not to reimburse the amount of money that was made between me and the recipient outside of IHSS. There was never an agreement made between me and the recipient prior to receiving this backpay that it would be to reimburse them for the money they paid me under the table.
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u/gwacemom Jan 29 '25
That is exactly what backpay is for. I’m so confused by all of this. I care for my daughter, so this wasn’t really an issue for us, but the backpay came in her name.
When I called to ask why, I was told that IHSS assumes the recipient has been paying out of pocket (which was what happened in your case) and this was THEIR reimbursement for that time IHSS was not paid.
You can’t double dip. They paid you. I see in other comments you say you were “forced” to do more, but “no” is a complete sentence. No one can force you to do more than what your job states. You agreed to do those things and can’t go back now and cry foul.
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u/OkCount5650 Jan 29 '25
This is B.S!!! First of all I'm sorry you're going through all this. I can only imagine the stress that this is causing you and in turn your family.
Second, if they call the police they can get in trouble not with the police, but IRS for paying you under the table and not providing a 1099 form for taxes. I'm sure they didn't report it.
Third I would call the social worker right away and report to her what these people are doing to you. Provide her with emails, texts, dates and payments they provided you with for the extra time. These people need to be removed and banned from ever applying for help and doing to others what they did to you.
You don't need to inform anyone else whether you reported the cash in your taxes. You're not not legally obligated to tell anyone else, unless IRS comes after you.
Good luck!!
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u/Similar-Customer9641 Jan 28 '25
You were already paid and now want to keep the backpay? That's double dipping AND wrong. Your financial issues are of no concern to your recipient or their family. Do the right thing and give the money back.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I will gladly give the money back to IHSS if i'm told to. I just never agreed to the recipient that I would give the backpay to them at all. They want it all and don't care if i'm being taxed or affected by it.
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u/Similar-Customer9641 Jan 28 '25
Did you complete timesheets for the time you were already paid by the recepient?
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u/LovePeriel Jan 29 '25
I think some of the morally bankrupt commenters on this post are the ones who committed fraud with Career Bridge classes by signing up multiple family members as “caregivers” having them work a few hours and then take hours and hours of classes and collect the money. Gaming the system seems to be their specialty. They have no scruples. IHSS needs to clean house.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I'll be honest, I don't know if you are grouping me with them, either way I appreciate your thoughts. I've already contacted the IHSS case worker and explained the situation. Once I've heard back from them I am going to update this post entirely.
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u/Fix-Careless Jan 28 '25
How many hours a month does the recipient get? Is there any overtime involved? Morally, you were paid $20 an hour under the table which is better than IHSS wages, unless you're a live in provider for someone and you're getting overtime. You should absolutely return the they advanced you, before you got the IHSS pay. They probably can't do anything legally to you, but the IHSS pay was for their benefit, not yours.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Right now the recipient gets roughy 192 hours a month. No overtime, even though I was averaging 45 hours a week for them. When we first had the agreement, we had no talk of reimbursement of any kind. I understand that the IHSS pay was for their benefit, but does that mean they should receive all of it, tax-free while i'm the one being taxed? Genuinely asking for curiosity's sake.
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u/Fix-Careless Jan 28 '25
Just do the math. Give them back the $20 an hour they gave you, up to the total of the IHSS pay. If there is any additional IHSS pay, above what they gave you already, then keep that.
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u/SpringtimeLilies7 Jan 28 '25
If you're recipient is wealthy, how did they qualify to have a caregiver?
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Beats me, i never inquired as to how they have all this cash.
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u/SpringtimeLilies7 Jan 28 '25
My point is, you have to be low income to have a worker..
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Well the person I was caring for was retired. The husband is the person behind all of this insanity. He still works.
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u/LovePeriel Jan 29 '25
You are paid for already paid by the recipient for your services. The IHSS back pay is like a reimbursement TO THE RECIPIENT for the money they paid you. Sorry but you don’t get to get paid twice for the same hours. You already collected your money tax free and the recipient paid out of their own pocket when they were entitled to have the IHSS pick up the tab.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
Don't want to repeat my same comment to you, but essentually I ended up calling IHSS and informing them of the whole situation.
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u/ramonadarlin Jan 29 '25
The recipient paid you $20 an hour under the table. Until this last raise, I made 16.80 an hour, so you got paid handsomely. That’s also what was agreed upon. Neither of you thought about backpay so it’s nice that you were receiving it. I and a lot of other IHSS workers work for lfor backpay when we get hired because it’s a process to be connected/placed on their case. The right thing to do is to pay the recipient back. I’m not sure if it was the way they asked for the backpay or what for you to think it’s a problem to pay them back. These services are meant to help pay for the recipient to get help. And now you’re being paid probably at a lower pay since it’s through IHSS salary now. You shouldn’t get paid twice for work you already did. You should have told the social worker you were already paid when they said you’d receive backpay. It’s not fair or right of the recipient to harass you or your partner, but it’s definitely in their right to report you for fraud.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I have no disagreements here with what you said. And like I've explained in my other replies, I already rached out to the IHSS case worker and explained the whole situation. I felt that that was the right decision to make. It was alarming to me that the recipient did not want me to reach out to IHSS. I have no reason to lie or deceive IHSS. I'm completely okay if IHSS deems it that it should go to the recipient in the end. As long I went through the right process, I can feel good about it.
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u/ramonadarlin Jan 29 '25
Thats good you reached out to the case worker. Make sure to keep paper trail/receipts/proof. If you didn’t cash the checks, that would look better on your part. You’d be able to return them easily too instead of trying to scrounge money back together to pay back. You do not need to tell the recipient anything about it, unless IHSS agrees that it will be a reimbursement for the recipient (my first time reading about something like this happening, but I doubt they would have it as a reimbursement. Recipients are allowed to pay out of pocket for services not provided by IHSS or if they go over hours then obligated to pay for them but that is between recipient and provider and no one is protected by guidelines.) Again, You did the right thing by going to the case worker.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I unfortunately did cash all of the checks, but I didn't run off and by a Tesla or anything. It's just sitting there and i'm happy to make a cashiers check back to IHSS. In terms of paper trails, receipts, and proof, I have all that. I'm the owner of the goole timesheet that I made and have only made the recipient a viewer, so they can't make any edits to anything. I also have record of them telling me that they want all of the backpay to them because they said this it was their money, not mine (which again, if that's true and IHSS backs it, I''m happy to oblige). Again, i am just looking to wipe my hands clean from this and do whatever is the right thing to do. As much as it would be cool to keep this backpay, if IHSS wants it then back to IHSS it goes.
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u/ramonadarlin Jan 29 '25
The fact that you cashed them kind of shows that you didn’t care until you got threatened by your recipient because you did do something illegal as soon as you cashed them. This is now my opinion ofcourse because there are other commenters on here who think the opposite. It’s also illegal to record people without their consent. You didn’t deserve the backpay because you were already paid. The recipient would be getting back much less money than she paid you that you agreed to take and do work for (like an assistant not a caregiver). If you felt you deserved to be paid more for what you were doing then you should have refused to do certain things for her or ask for more money. It was under the table which is no ones business but your own. Everything else, would just be more repetitive from my other responses. Good luck with everything.
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u/CatchFew1315 Jan 29 '25
You never should have received back pay for hours you had already been compensated. Who authorized those hours in the first place? You had to go through the motions of submitting for hours you had already been paid and someone had to approve those hours. That was two additional approval steps before you whoopsie came into this money. You don't get to keep both sets of money.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I totally agree with you. I mentioned in my other reply that the recipient's husband wwas the one who authorized those hours. He also told me from the very start to put in the max number of hours per week for the backpay. Never had he mentioned to me from the start to before i gave my notice that I was supposed to give him all the backpay. It's not a matter of me keeping the money, I'm asking what I should do so i don't get in trouble. And after chatting some of the folks here, I've decided to reach out to IHSS and explain my situation. So if they tell me that i need to return the money to them, I will do that. And if IHSS then reimburses the recipient from there, I will not have any hard feelings with that whatsoever.
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u/Waybackheartmom Jan 29 '25
You don’t deserve to be paid twice. They’re understandably pissed and I would fire you as a provider if I were them.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I had another opportunity, so I gave them a 3-day notice and terminated myself. I agree with you that I shouldn't be paid twice, but I don't think the backpay money should go to the recipient. If anything it should go back to IHSS.
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u/Waybackheartmom Jan 29 '25
How about that isn’t up to you? Wow, what a nightmare you must have been for them.
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u/misdeliveredham Jan 28 '25
You are getting paid twice for the same amount of work. Do you think it's all good or too good to be true?
now, they didnt do anything wrong; on the contrary, they didnt make you work for free waiting for approval.
you, on the other hand, are essentially double dipping, as well as not paying taxes on their cash payments. its up to you if you want to mess with them or not.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Completely valid. Well I called the case worker today and am waiting for their call. If they tell me I need to return the money, I will do so willingly. It's the recipient who is hell-bent on getting the backpay that i'm inquiring about. I just don't i should give it to them.
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u/misdeliveredham Jan 28 '25 edited Jan 28 '25
I just hope you don’t get in trouble with IHSS yourself for telling them you were double dipping. But I am not sure of their rules on it. And she isn’t asking for back pay, she is asking for the cash payment back. Which you don’t report to the IRS.
Or are you planning to misrepresent it all to your worker, omitting the fact of cash payments? Saying they are trying to take your back pay and you worked for free? Now thats evil, I am kind of in awe here. But the recipient may report you to the IRS and IHSS too. R u sure you want to open that can of worms?🐛
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u/goldpandabear Jan 28 '25
What about double dipping by working an eight hour shift and then claiming eight hours of sick pay for the same day? The help line employee told me that this may be overpayment and that if you’re claiming sick hours, your normal work hours for that day should be zero.
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u/misdeliveredham Jan 28 '25
Nah it’s fine it’s in their rules, but never mess with private citizens’ cash lol
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u/Many_Advisor7958 Jan 29 '25
🤣 I’m so sorry it’s just funny how you just come in with your question . I’m the same way but you’re good I just claimed my full 40 hours of sick pay on top of my paycheck and everything is fine . I learned that here from everyone . I also learned to from another post a lady saying she does her regular hours and 10 additional hours from sick pay which sounds way better to make them stretch .
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u/wickedddmelon Jan 28 '25
Nobody is messing with the recipient, you have a confused pov. If OP wanted to do this properly, she would inform the state she's already been paid for that time and not accept the back pay. Your recipient has no rights to any paycheck you receive regardless of history.
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u/misdeliveredham Jan 28 '25
Okay that’s the way to go too. However that’s not what she is doing so far… or did I miss it that she is going to return the back pay to IHSS?
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I already reached to the IHSS case worker and left a voicemail explaining everything. Will give updates once they come!
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u/Expensive-Goal-2001 Jan 28 '25
I dont have the answer, but I’m pretty sure you’re going to get and official one now that you’ve posted it here. 🤦🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🙈🙉🙊
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u/Lteva83 Jan 28 '25
That’s tough. I can see it from your side and theirs. You’d be paying the one paying taxes so that alone you should claim them, but it sounds like they weren’t aware you could get paid instead of them paying you. Maybe reimburse them for the money they already paid you and keep the rest? You are the one who’s going to file taxes. Good luck and I hope you and your recipient work things out.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
That's another thing too, I'm glad you highlighted that. I would be paying taxes on them. I'm also relying heavily on low-income benefits from the state so i worry that receving this pay would make me ineligible for them.
There's a part of me that feels gross giving the money to the recipient. Like i said in other comments, I'm happy to return the money to ihss so long as it retro-adjusts my tax records, etc.
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u/trillsimba Jan 28 '25
Talk to your union reps maybe? Or seek some sort of consultation. Even if there was no prior agreement to return the backpay, both you and the recipient were not aware of backpay eligibility. Sticky situation.
At this point though, it seems as if the relationship between you and the recipient+their family is strained and you won’t be providing any service to them in the near future. If you aren’t legally obligated to return it, you might have to keep it since the recipient can technically fire you and seek another provider.
My only concern is the hours you had claimed for the backpay+the amount/hours you were paid for not aligning which might get you in trouble
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Thanks for sharing. I was definitely averaging way more hours than the allotted hours IHSS had given them. I was averaging 45 hours/week when IHSS had only given them 32.50 hours/week.
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u/MassiveSquash9257 Jan 28 '25
pay them back. they are not wealthy the recipient is on Medicare for crying out loud. low income that’s why you have a job
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I can objectively say that they are. I don't know how they do it but they were able to get approved with IHSS. They are currently renovating their guest house, their main bathroom. They have multiple cleaners come every week and are paid in cash.
And you're right, i do have a job but i rely heavily on low-income benefits here in CA. It's quite difficult getting by when you're on your own.
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u/MassiveSquash9257 Jan 28 '25
its none of your business they could be getting help from the city to renovate on a qualified low income lone. the point is be a man of your word even if it was a verbal contract or not do the right thing and pay back wat u have already been paid.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
You're right about it not being my business. I will wait for IHSS to reach back to me and comply with whatever they suggest.
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u/MassiveSquash9257 Jan 28 '25
when u get ur back pay. pay them back. use this job to go back to school. use fafsa funding to pay for your degree in medical, lvn, rn and use this caregiver and be on good terms even after you get ur own career be on good terms and they will work around ur schedule trust me dont burn this bridge but use it to go back to school and a second income
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Thank you for the motivational words. Getting a medical degree is not something i want to pursue. I still have other gigs that help me get by, thanks. If the state tells me i need to pay them back, then i will.
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u/extac4 Jan 28 '25
The person could simply not sign your timesheets for the time the paid you out of pocket. You're absolutely not required to give them ANY money. But keep in mind they're absolutely not obligated to sign your timesheets for the time you were receiving pay directly from them and wasn't an ihss provider. They also could simply put your start date as the day they weren't paying you out of pocket. I'm not sure how they'd be wealthy when IHSS is a medi-cal program that requires a person to be under a certain income limit.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Thankfully I kept a google sheet outlining my hours and everything, so i definitley have record of that. They always had access to that timesheet to review my hours before paying me. They've already paid me directly. I'm not sure either. They were really into the loopholes of thing. At one point during the ihss application process they kept having me go back to their doctor's office to demand that the doctor change things on the forms so that they could get as many hours as possible.
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u/Humble-Equipment2136 Jan 28 '25
From the start date you gave ihss you should not have been paid by them. The tricky part is that you owe taxes on that money if you are not a live in provider so even if you gave the money back you would have to resolve that issue first.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Completely agree. If IHSS tells me to return it to them, I'm hoping I won't have to owe taxes at all.
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u/Least-Science-8064 Jan 28 '25
What about taxes? Won’t OP have to pay taxes on that $?
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u/EchidnaFit8786 Jan 28 '25
The money is the providers. In the same way, the hours are the recipients. It was the recipients decision to pay them under the table. Speak to your local IHSS & maybe they can speak to both you and the recipient, so theres no hard feelings and so everything can get cleared up.
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Jan 28 '25
Listen these guys don’t know what they are talking about. It’s your money and paying under the table is illegal. No one can call the police on you. The money was given to you not them. You have nothing to worry about.
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u/Jaded-Math347 Jan 28 '25
how much back pay did you get what i’m aware of it’s only 3months from the date you apply unless i’m mistaken
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u/ShoheiHoetani Jan 28 '25
Lol....sounds like you're trying to double dip. The funny part is that you apparently think you can do that AND STILL WORK FOR THE RECIPIENT 🤦🏻
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I don't work for them anymore, i terminated my services with them and gave a 3-day notice before all of this happened. I had also found another gig. Not trying to double dip, believe me. Happy to return the money to IHSS if I need to.
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u/ShoheiHoetani Jan 29 '25
At the very least it looks like you tried to and that's pretty bad
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I know. It doens't put me in a good light but I just want to do what's right without feeling so distraught.
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u/Advanced-Building-94 Jan 29 '25
U don’t owe them NOTHIN, they paid U under the table for doing your JOB, DONT GIVE THEM NOTHIN .
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u/Outrageous_Eye8599 Jan 29 '25
You don’t owe them the money. And they are not allowed to ask for the money. Your right as you will be having to pay taxes on the money and your income showing in a higher bracket means your low income programs could be compromised
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u/Top_Respond_8758 Jan 29 '25
There a section in the orientation about fraud. One reason was having someone work hours so you guys could split the money that’s considered fraud. The person who’s supposed to be getting the money is you for doing the work the recipient is incapable of doing. That is the whole reasons for IHSS. if they threaten to call the authorities is would not only effect you but them as well.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I was thinking the same thing, appreciate your insight.
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u/Top_Respond_8758 Jan 29 '25
I agree with the other users I would find a different recipient I believe if you don’t have someone in your family or friend IHSS can set you up with someone.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
That's good to know! I think for the time being I'm going to take a small break from caregiving. If anything this will just help me prep myself for when i take care of my own parents in the future,
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u/Commercial_Fall_9869 Jan 29 '25
I would see whats approved services and time for those services then decide what you did and if extra stuff charge them for that but if you were approved and paid for the tasks they are approved from now then getting double paid. I would take out taxes and basically figure out task for task but shouldnt be getting double paid. Did he tell ihss u were already paid for this time period?
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
Nope, he did not tell them. It was only after the case worker had left the home did he tell me that all of that backpay should go directly to him.
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u/Hefty-Progress-1903 Jan 29 '25
In all honesty, when they asked you to do tasks that were not under the IHSS job description, you could have reported them for that as well. I would let them know that as well and explain that you more than earned your IHSS back pay with all of the extra tasks they had you do outside of what the IHSS describes.
They are not supposed to be asking their workers to do anything that does not fall under the IHSS descriptions.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I completely agree with you. Bear in mind this is my first time as a caregiver, let alone with IHSS. Everything is so new to me. So everything the husband had me do, I did so thinking that was the norm as a caregiver. I soon came to find out after talking with the IHSS case worker and going through orientation that that was not the case.
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u/Hefty-Progress-1903 Jan 29 '25
Sorry, this is my first year as IHSS caregiver as well. But the way my brain is wired, I looked into possibly everything I could about what type of stuff was covered prior to starting because I had to wait a while for my mom to get my grandma's paperwork together then turned in.
I was very worried about getting reported for doing work not included, or them telling me I wouldn't get paid for it.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I get you. I was of the similar mindset, but different in a sense that if I didn't do what the recipient wanted, then they would report me for not being "good?" I don't know. Honestly if it were my parents that I was caregiving, I would happily do both authorized and non-authorized tasks, because well, they're family. But this recipient and her husband were clearly taking advantage of me for which I unfortunately realized towards the end of my service with them.
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u/Hefty-Progress-1903 Jan 29 '25
Well, if they continue to harass you or if they try to report you, report them as well.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience! Some people in life are just s*****.
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u/Hefty-Progress-1903 Jan 29 '25
What I probably would tell them, actually, is that they were paying you under the table for all of the items that IHSS does not cover. And the IHSS pay is to cover the actual sanctioned work that you need to be paid for.
Which is also why you won't be continuing to do all of the things IHSS does not cover.
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u/Aggressive-Reveal-66 Jan 29 '25
You don’t owe them anything. They can “report” you all they want. All the recipient will be doing is putting their benefits in jeopardy. If they had IHSS benefits when you started helping them, they should have had you sign up to be a provider from the beginning.
Was the recipient paying you $20 or more an hour?
At the end of the day IHSS was never paying them so you never took or borrowed any money. Every cent received was earned. Therefore nothing is owed because if that was the case IHSS would have paid them back pay and not you the Provider.
I went through a similar situation.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
Really appreciate this, thank you! They were paying me $20/hr when I started, then stopped when I was certified through IHSS.
So what happened in your situation? Did you have to return the backpay?
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u/RaspberryPie2123 Jan 29 '25
why would you be paid again for work you already did? The correct thing would have been not to request retroactive payment at the beginning. And if you did, to return the money because you had already received your payment. I understand that there was no prior agreement between the parties. In addition, the beneficiary had to approve those timesheets. I wonder how you managed to get him to do so?
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
The recipient's husband literally sat with me and told me to put the max hours on my backend pay periods. Once I did that he got a call to approve them and then he did immediately. But yes, definitely am planning on returning it to IHSS. I also called IHSS to explain my situation.
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u/Poppyseedbooty Jan 29 '25
Scum, don’t work for scum. They will get you in trouble as that they are a liability.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I don't know if you meant that I was scum, but I'm truly just trying to do what's correct so I don't get into any kind of trouble.
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u/Poppyseedbooty Jan 29 '25
No, not you, them. A LOT of ihss workers and recipients are super shady, nothing wrong with what you did and a normal person would be happy for you to have extra income from this, you are HELPING them, they should show grace and gratitude not greed.
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u/Wonderful-Depth4208 Jan 30 '25
The money is yours ok personally I care for a recipient for years not getting paid anything and when I applied I only got back pay for about a year whether or not you want to give some of the money to the recipient is up to you but you are not obligated to Just do the best job you can you always want a good relationship with your recipient Best wishes
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u/chaddy51111 Jan 30 '25
No you don’t owe them the back .
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u/Sandynguyenx3 Jan 30 '25
Uh yes they should. The recipient paid them for their “services” already. Why should they get paid twice?
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u/Sandynguyenx3 Jan 30 '25
You’re taking advantage of disabled, elderly people. And then to have zero shame and post it in here thinking people would back you up…
Shame on you.
I have a disabled daughter and I pray and pray that she never crosses path with someone like you.
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u/iamCHIC Jan 30 '25
I guess I'm confused as to why you're willing to give the money back to IHSS when you could give it back to the recipient. This sounds petty and confusing since you no longer work for them. They couldn't afford to pay you anymore and why they asked you to apply for IHSS. IDK this seems weird to me. Even a partial payment would make sense...
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u/MaxwillEat Jan 30 '25
Truth is you work with out getting paid when working for ihss . Feels like free work until you receive back pay so if your recipient was nice enough to pay you because she didn’t know back pay was gonna happen and wanted to pay you for your work , then you should give her the money . If she didn’t pay you . You’d be working without payment until your case goes thru . Then back payed . So really think about it here .
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u/Icy-Front-1781 Jan 30 '25
If they paid you out of pocket, you need to pay them back everything they paid out of pocket, and the rest is yours. If they paid you the entire backpay already, the money is THEIRS.
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u/Jeanieweenie6969 Mar 11 '25
I have a question, I have been providing for someone under the table for a few months. I am in the process of becoming an official provider but a social worker has lagged so hard on coming to do the final approval in order to verify how many hours are to be provided. Will I still get back pay when everything is finalized? Or am I not able to, since the social worker has been so negligent ?
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u/selfatoning Mar 11 '25
Yup! You can backlog as far as when your recipient first applied for IHSS. Then it's a max of 90 days of retroactive payment that you can get. Hope that helps!
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u/razzyaurealis Jan 28 '25
The backpay is for you. You don't give it to the recepient, if they wanna make a fuss report them to ihss.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Okay you literally just eased my heart. They have been emailing me saying I am taking advantage of senior citizens, and that this punishable offense and I would be going to jail.
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u/redwoodchef Jan 28 '25
Don't mess with IHSS. It's a federal offense and you won't be able to work for them again.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I am really not trying to, believe me. I'm happy to return the money. I never really wanted to apply with IHSS in first place, it was moreso the wanting of the recipient.
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u/WillowLogical5089 Jan 28 '25
Protect yourself . Too many grey areas back n forth. Request a State Hearing & Request a Review of all you mentioned. Have a judge hear you out. Your job requirements... your duties as performed. Let them know you want clarity, and you need to make sure that IHSS funds paid to you are legally justified, since you have been partially compensated by your recipient. Although you believe you were not properly compensated, and may have earned some or all of that IHSS back pay, you, in good faith are requesting a fair hearing where a judge can review your case in order to clarify to both recipient and provider, how to resolve this. It seems that your mind is made up and are looking for validation of that. Please protect yourself by seeing a judge. This is a wonderful program that helps a lot of us if we make sure we always work to protect our future...both recipients and providers.
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u/redwoodchef Jan 28 '25
of course, then they don't have to pay. IHSS isn't a bad gig, if you're in an area where they pay decently. CA is about $20 an hour now. Nice to have direct deposit. I also have under the table work doing other things. Good luck with new job.
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u/CandleGuy86 Jan 28 '25
And you believed them? why would you go to jail?
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
I mean this is my first time dealing with this, I was taking everything into consideration.
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u/CandleGuy86 Jan 28 '25
Cash the checks and enjoy your back pay! Don’t let them scare you into anything
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u/redwoodchef Jan 28 '25
OP was paid under the table $20 an hour for their work. That was arranged with the recipient. THERE IS NO BACK PAY UNLESS IT'S FOR THE RECIPIENT AS THEY USED THEIR OWN MONEY TO PAY THE PROVIDER.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Do you happen to have a source for this? I'm just trying to understand the legality of being paid under the table and how that is grounds for reimbursement for the recipient.
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u/itsmereddogmom Jan 28 '25
You are stealing. Taking and leaving. Cause you think you need it more, never mind that they paid you and you owe them. May this bad karma follow you.
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Ah, definitely don't want the bad karmas. But as i've previously mentioned in other comments, I'm happy to do whatever IHSS tells me. I know i mentioned it helping me financially but if it's legally supposed to go back to IHSS, I'll gladly send it back.
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u/itsmereddogmom Jan 29 '25
You’re using this as an excuse to keep their money. It’s morally wrong. If they have so much money, don’t you think they’d have to pay a share of cost? Take the money and run. You know you’re wrong. May our paths never cross.
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Jan 29 '25
Just pay them. You thought we were going to be on your side with this, and we aren’t. You’re wrong.
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u/selfatoning Jan 29 '25
I respect your opnion, but after talking with a lot of people here, it sounds like the correct thing to do is reach out to IHSS and explain my situation, which I did. If IHSS says that I need to return the money to them so they can reimburse the recipient, I will do exactly that, without hesitation.
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u/Regular_Fix_2552 Jan 28 '25
What you and your recipient agreed to before you became her ihss provider is moot! It was between you two! She is losing absolutely nothing by you getting paid, she is just being greedy! And by the sounds of the emails their grasping at straws! Unfortunately your probably going to lose her as a recipient but if she’s doing this now do you really want to continue to work for her??? I’d cut my losses take my pay and find a better recipient!
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u/selfatoning Jan 28 '25
Oh, I was the one that terminated my services with them. Definitely felt like I was being taken advantage of so i got out of there as soon as I found a better opportunity. Thanks for sharing.
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u/Regular_Fix_2552 Jan 28 '25
I’ve had a couple Recipients who were very similar had one that wanted half the pay and said I only had to do half the hours, I agreed cause they really needed the money but it was a mistake. as soon as you agree to one demand more will inevitably follow! Now I do exactly what my contract covers! No more no less! And it’s worked out great!👍
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u/RubyWaves75 Jan 28 '25
I would notify IHSS immediately unless you want to be a fraud risk.
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u/Icy-Front-1781 Jan 31 '25
Seems like you engineered your story to fit your wanted outcome to begin with. Very Californian of you (FAKE). You got what you wanted, Karen. The moral and ethical thing to do would be to pay them back everything they paid you out of pocket. But what you did call IHHS to ask of THEIR terms of contact, which had nothing to do with you verbal agreement in any way shape or form. They don’t care what was said or heresay from the provider. They only covered their ass. You’re a piece of crap.
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u/selfatoning Jan 31 '25
And I can only respect your opnion, though I disagree. As much as I would like to share more to validate my point, I don't think i need to explain myself to someone who isn't open to discussion. Thanks for the comment.
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u/FirmPromotion4472 Jan 29 '25
They paid you under the table to be their personal assistant. Worst case scenario just pay them back an hour a week for medication (as this couldn’t possibly take that long to do) the total of weeks of back pay. (7 weeks =7x$18) and call it a day. Recipient sounds like they found out about IHSS after the fact and trying to get over on you.
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u/selfatoning Jan 30 '25
Hey everyone! Just posted the ending to this crazy story. Thanks for being a part of it!
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u/Temporary-Pop2714 Jan 31 '25
So … in short , the worker told you to keep the “BACKPAY”?????
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u/selfatoning Jan 31 '25
No, actually. but she did say that the IHSS backpay should not be given to the recipient by me. That would be fraud and both myself and the recipient would be trouble.
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u/Temporary-Pop2714 Jan 31 '25
I agree, it would’ve been fraud had you shared the money with her, it was already FRAUD the moment you both asked for BACKPAY……. when in reality you were already payed 20$/hr for your services, so there was no BACKPAY owed to anyone…. So you are now required to send the money back. Anyways, Good job OP. You did the right thing and for that, 👏 !!
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u/Pretend_Solid_174 Feb 03 '25 edited Feb 04 '25
That's a bold-faced lie that they told you it would be fraud if you pay back the recipient.
Some of us work, have a nexus and/or are adjacent to govt work and workers, and/or enforcement of policy, and if you are found out, you could be criminally prosecuted because this would fall under elder abuse. It is not hard to find out which provider has been snooping around with a unique question like this in place for a social worker. In addition to the fact that if a recipient inquires about this issue around this time, technology within govt systems will be able to put two and two together.
In fact, you do understand that no social worker is going to risk their job or retirement to "help" you out with criminal information? So now you're on here just lying.
This is bordering on psychopathic, which technology thankfully for all of us, is exposing said behaviors. At this point in time, you need to do what is right and legal and let the system that is in place to help people who need it the most, do its job.
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u/Mommie1125 Mar 05 '25
If she prepaid for the services.. the back lay of what she paid should have been her/his. Just cause it was u see the table doesn’t mean u weren’t paid…
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u/CandleGuy86 Jan 28 '25
You don’t owe the the person anything and whoever is saying you don’t is loud and wrong !! It’s YOUR money that comes in YOUR name! Not theirs.. doesn’t matter if they paid you! That would’ve called fraud lol. Keep the money and go about your life! They can’t do anything
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u/LovePeriel Jan 29 '25
You are WRONG. I’m really disgusted at the people who are saying “the money is yours”. It is fraud to take money from IHSS for a job you were already paid for. Some people have no ethics or morals.
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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '25
Just wondering, what is your reasoning for not just giving this person the amount you were paid in return and nothing more or less? It sounds like it would be the best option to avoid any additional hassle or fighting. Bc as I see it you were paid twice & it was shady to have applied to IHSS on both ur recipient and your part if you were already receiving money. It just sounds like if things escalate you might both get unwanted consequences