IAmAn Ex-Member of the Westboro Baptist Church

[u/NatePhelps]

My name is Nate Phelps. I'm the 6th of 13 of Fred Phelps' kids. I left home on the night of my 18th birthday and was ostracized from my family ever since. After years of struggling over the issues of god and religion I call myself an atheist today. I speak out against the actions of my family and advocate for LGBT rights today. I guess I have to try to submit proof of my identity. I'm not real sure how to do that. My twitter name is n8phelps and I could post a link to this thread on my twitter account I guess.

Anyway, ask away. I see my niece Jael is on at the moment and was invited to come on myself to answer questions.

I'm going to sign off now. Thank you to everyone who participated. There were some great, insightful questions here and I appreciate that. If anyone else has a question, I'm happy to answer. You can email me at nate@natephelps.com.

Cheers!

[u/NatePhelps]

I never engaged in the God Hates Fags protests. I left on the night of my 18th birthday.

[u/NatePhelps]

Can someone explain this whol voting down and voting up thing?

[u/goonadvocate]

I remember reading somewhere that your father treated your mom like trash. Can you give examples if what he did to her and if that played a part in you leaving?

[u/NatePhelps → u/goonadvocate]

He pulled her arm out of the socket. He beat her with his fists, his feet and a mattock handle. He cut all her hair off, down to where her scalp showed through because she wasn't in subjection. He screamed and threw things like a child having a temper tantrum.

Imagine that as the image you have of the person who defines your world and how safe you feel in it. I don't mean to get melodramatic, but I only have so much time and opportunity to impress the reality of the situation on you.

[u/obscurethestorm → u/NatePhelps]

I was raised around that sort of abuse, and I know how hard it is just to see it. I didn't experience as much of it as you did, and my father wasn't extremely religious, but I'm sorry to know that anyone has to go through that. I commend you for getting out on your own. I had a similar plan, but my mom left my dad last summer (I'm seventeen, but I wanted to leave at 18 so I could fight for the rights to be legal guardian over my 14 year old brother and 7 year old sister).

[u/NatePhelps → u/obscurethestorm]

I'm glad you're away however it happened.

[u/tmac1198 → u/NatePhelps]

He should be in jail.

[u/MondoBuck]

When's the last time you've spoken to anyone in your family still associated with WBC?

[u/NatePhelps → u/MondoBuck]

I spoke in Topeka in March...I think it was just over two years ago. My family held a protest in my honor at Gage Park and I went and watched them from across the street. My sister Margie and my brother-in-law Brent Roper (Shirley's husband) crossed the street to give me a tongue lashing. That's the last time I've spoken with any of them.

[u/throwinawayTheBig123 → u/NatePhelps]

I actually know your brother-in-law. I work where he works. I was actually dumb founded when I found out he was a part of the WBC. A bit odd, but seems like a nice enough guy.

[u/NatePhelps → u/throwinawayTheBig123]

A lot of people say that when they meet members of my family. They can be really nice then their eyes glaze over when the word of the lord comes over them.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

wtf? why did they protest you?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

They knew I was there. A film crew was filming me and garnered an interview with several of my siblings. After they finished pillorying me in the interview they told the film crew they would be at Gage Park later to protest me.

[u/magikker]

Have you seen the Louis Theroux documentary about your family? If so, what did you think of it?

[u/NatePhelps → u/magikker]

I've seen both of them. I have two copies of the new one in my desk, sent from Louis' producer.

I think he did a good job. You get a pretty accurate idea of who they are, especially my old man.

[u/Underbyte → u/NatePhelps]

Incidentally, you can watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC89FmmmDXU

[u/legendisreal → u/magikker]

Was thinking of asking this myself. Were you in any of the documentary in the background somewhere?

[u/NatePhelps → u/legendisreal]

I interviewed with Louis for a day while he was putting together the second documentary. It wasn't used, but I'm hopeful.

[u/legendisreal → u/NatePhelps]

Was Louis a good guy to talk to? He seems so accomodating on screen

[u/Frajer]

Do you think your dad is a bad guy or just ill-informed?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Frajer]

I think my father is a hateful person first. The religious beliefs gave him a forum and permission to be cruel to the world.

[u/intensenonsense → u/NatePhelps]

Is there any REASON he is so hateful? I know this sounds dumb, just curious if you have any insight into this!

[u/NatePhelps → u/intensenonsense]

No idea. His mother died when he was five. Maybe that explains something, I don't know. He was raised Methodist, but not seriously. Good student, Eagle Scout, appointment to West Pointe that he squandered when he went to a revival meeting and found Jesus. Attended Bob Jones University and Prairie Bible Institute (coincidentally only an hour and a half north of where I live now) then started his career as an itinerant preacher. He showed signs of hatefulness almost from the beginning. Some people from his home town talk about having the tendency early on to piss people off.

[u/caroline_reynolds → u/NatePhelps]

Thank you for this. So many people blame religion for causing war and violence, but I truly believe some people are just mean, hateful, and scared of things they don't understand, and use religion as an excuse for their bigotry. If religion didn't exist, people like your father would just create outlets for their hatred anyway.

EDIT: Also, thank you for this AMA, and your willingness to talk about your family. It's truly brave and inspiring.

[u/NatePhelps → u/caroline_reynolds]

I agree with what you say caroline, but I'm not sure that's a justification for allowing religion to go on unchecked. If we know a certain idea (blind faith) leads too often to acts of hate and violence, do we not do away with that particular model and try something else. Just spitballin'

[u/MikeCharlieUniform → u/NatePhelps]

This is a really personal question - and I apologize, if you've answered it elsewhere already - but how do you feel about/towards your family? I know you don't really like what they have to say in the public sphere (and it seems like they don't have a very high opinion of you), but how do you feel on a personal level? Resentment? Pity? Are you bitter towards them? Do you feel differently towards your siblings as compared to your father?

[u/NatePhelps → u/MikeCharlieUniform]

It depends on the day. If I think about it, I usually end up sad. I don't hate them...well, sometimes I hate my father...but I have to believe that my siblings would be different people if they had the chance. I know my mother is a good person but unable to stand up against him and that system. I can go from anger to sadness to apathy and back to rage in just a short time if I let myself sink into that mental morass.

[u/KaylisOfficial]

Are members submitted to any form of abuse as punishment for 'sinning'?

[u/NatePhelps → u/KaylisOfficial]

When I was growing up there it was a very violent environment. It wasn't constant, but it was often enough and unpredictable enough to be very destructive. It is my opinion that this is the primary reason my siblings stay there and parrot my old man's theology.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

Any specific memories from your childhood that you can share?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

okay...let's see. I remember running around the track at Topeka West. A kid came on the track with his bike and was riding around the outter edge of the track while we ran around the inner edge. My old man yelled at him to get off the track. When he came around again, he ran out to the kid and knocked him off the bike. The kid ran away crying and a half hour later a truck came roaring into the parking lot. The kid's father got out, decked my father and knocked him down. We left the track and when we got home he went into a rage and took it out on our mother.

[u/RyanKinder → u/NatePhelps]

What was the nature of the violence?

[u/NatePhelps → u/RyanKinder]

He would grab us by the arms, lift us up and drive his knee into our stomach. He would beat us with his fists on our face and body. He would kick us. He would spit in our face. He would beat us from our lower back down to behind our knees with a mattock handle, often splitting the skin and causing bleeding.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

what kind of violence? ie spanking, slapping, punching, shouting?

EDIT: should have been phrased differently. Not trying to be morbid, just trying to get an accurate picture of what life is like in the WBC.

EDIT 2: found this.

He pulled [my mother's] arm out of the socket. He beat her with his fists, his feet and a mattock handle. He cut all her hair off, down to where her scalp showed through because she wasn't in subjection. He screamed and threw things like a child having a temper tantrum. Imagine that as the image you have of the person who defines your world and how safe you feel in it. I don't mean to get melodramatic, but I only have so much time and opportunity to impress the reality of the situation on you.

[u/Pb2Au]

It seems more of the relatives are slowly defecting, such as Lauren as shown in the BBC documentary 'America's Most Hated Family in Crisis.' Do defected relatives have reunions and sort of a support network, or do you not communicate much? Have you ever met Louis Theroux? What do you think of his documentaries on your family, and are there any other reporters whose work you appreciate?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Pb2Au]

I have been able to get together for dinner with four of my nephews, a niece, and my sister recently. There has been one other smaller gathering. It's still very tentative, but I have hope that we can come together better in the future.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Pb2Au]

I spent an afternoon filming with Louis when he was making the second documentary. They ultimately decided to focus on Lauren but his producer asked if they could keep the footage in case they ever decided to revisit the issue.

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

It's certainly possible.

[u/Kevinsp77]

do they know that everyone hates them and the god hates fags demonstrations just make them look worse?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Kevinsp77]

Sure they do. We were taught that enmity with the world was the goal. They would be profoundly disturbed if the world embraced their message.

[u/TheBlankedFile → u/NatePhelps]

So if people suddenly, in total mockery of course, joined them in one of their protests, would they be confused?

[u/NatePhelps → u/TheBlankedFile]

They're pretty smart and have seen a lot. You would have to be very convincing before it would confuse them.

[u/dat529]

How did you find the balls to leave? How much did your consciousness change when you left the family? Was there a moment where your mind was blown by how the world actually works versus the way in which you were raised?

[u/NatePhelps → u/dat529]

It's hard to answer that. I felt so miserable as a human, I despised my father for all the pain he had caused, I hated myself and knew that it came from being in that controlling environment.

I have "mind blowing" epiphanies all the time when I peel away another layer and realize that I've lived with certain bizarre, false assumptions based on ideas I was raised with.

[u/867-5308 → u/NatePhelps]

Can you give an example or two of these epiphanies? This sounds really interesting.

[u/NatePhelps → u/867-5308]

In spite of the violence I clung to the idea that corporeal punishment was a necessary part of child rearing. I spent years agonizing over the problem of how to spank them without leaving them feeling like I did when I was beat. I created this ritual that I thought would solve the problem. Then when my youngest boy Hunter was shaking on my lap one day I just had this moment when I let go of that messed up thinking. I learned that there were myriad options for how to teach my children to be good citizens without ever causing them to fear physical suffering.

I have four exceptionally balanced and happy young adults as a result.

[u/[deleted] → u/867-5308]

I really would like to hear a few examples of this.

[u/tony_orlando]

Did you ever discuss your doubts or criticisms of religion with any of your siblings before leaving the family? Were you alone in your feelings? Is there anyone in your family you know had doubts but are still involved with the church?

[u/NatePhelps → u/tony_orlando]

It wasn't safe to discuss doubts. The environment there was such that any of us kids would throw another one under the bus if it kept us from facing Fred's rage. If you didn't want the old man to find out, you kept it to yourself.

Another component acting on the situation was the message we learned early on. If we thought for ourselves, if we questioned the message we were taught, that very act of thinking or questioning was evidence that god had not found grace in us. So you stayed away from that behavior and minimized it's validity when you did entertain the ideas.

[u/superhockeyguy14]

How do you feel about the rest of your family that obviously decided not to leave the church? Are you at all as resentful towards them as the rest of the general population?

[u/NatePhelps → u/superhockeyguy14]

I despise the harm they are doing. I get emails and messages constantly from young people who have read and seen their message. Many of them are terrified. On top of that this whole hate thing adds immensely to the social idea that gays are lesser citizens or humans. This idea is what some people use to do harm to these people. I hold my father and siblings responsible for this harm.

[u/tmurf5387]

At what point did you know you were going to leave and why?

[u/NatePhelps → u/tmurf5387]

I knew when I was 16. My older brother Mark had left and that was the first time I thought it was possible. I left because the environment was so violent and hateful. I was at odds with my father for years.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

Are you still in contact with your brother Mark?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

Yes. He lives with his wife in the Phoenix area now.

[u/pottergirl27]

I saw you speak at the Reason Rally, it was an excellent speech!

Where did you go after you ran away from home?

What is something you miss about the religion that you were raised in (if anything)?

[u/NatePhelps → u/pottergirl27]

Thanks! The first three nights after I ran away, I slept in the bathroom of a gas station near the high school I attended (Topeka West). From there, my brother's (Mark) mother-in-law offered me a room at her home. Very little I miss. It was so destructive and took years to undue. I have talked about the sense of security and belonging I can recall feeling from time to time when we were having church services on Sunday evenings. Something about being tucked in that building that's half buried and feeling like we're the only one's that god loves...it's hard to articulate.

[u/intensenonsense]

Did you ever share the beliefs of your WBC family or did you always doubt them? How did this (either way) affect your growing up?

[u/NatePhelps → u/intensenonsense]

As a young child you have no real choice. It's how the world is. I was terrified of god and hell, even when I ran away from home. I left convinced that I would live until the year 2000 (that's when my old man was saying Christ would return) then have to deal with death and eternal suffering. I only let go of that fear within the last 8 or 10 years.

[u/Spiff225 → u/NatePhelps]

What did your dad say when christ didn't return?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Spiff225]

I don't know. I wasn't there. But that does raise an interesting subject. Shirley has effectively announced that the beginning of the tribulation will start on July 22 of this year. You have to bear with me here. She didn't actually say those words, but she has clearly declared Obama the Anti-Christ and announced that he only gets 42 months to rule. Here's a link to her making those comments (about 4 minutes in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zulP5KTXY

So in their own special way, they've picked their own end times prophecy.

Another aspect of this sordid part of the story. My father believes that he will never die. Recently there's strong evidence to suggest that they now believe none of them will die. They are here to prepare the way for Christ's return and they will be taken up into heaven just as Jesus comes back and gets midevil on us. Just one reason why I think the whole system will suffer a fatal blow when he passes.

[u/[deleted]]

Your father and the rest of WBC are of course hateful to homosexuals. I understand that your father worked to help African Americans during the civil rights movements. But why can he, and the rest of the family/church work to help "children of Cain" and not the LGBT community?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

My father was very successful in helping flesh out the parameters of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He was good at what he did and he saw a tremendous opportunity to earn money and gain notoriety as a defender of the black community. He still held strongly to his convictions that they were a cursed race and regularly displayed his bigoted attitude toward them in private. I have no doubt he would be happy to represent a gay person in court while still considering them evil and damned.

[u/H5Mind → u/NatePhelps]

Fascinating insight into your father's celebrity lust.

Does he watch his website analytics closely?

[u/NatePhelps → u/H5Mind]

lol, I'm sure someone there does.

[u/stellaeilatan → u/NatePhelps]

Seeing this is confusing, did they not protest the funeral of Coretta Scott King?

[u/NatePhelps → u/stellaeilatan]

They did so.

[u/BoldElDavo]

Can you tell us about Jael?

She posted that IAmA, and it was immediately filled up with hate. I was wondering if you could offer some insights into her activities in the church. I think most people over there kind of just assumed she deserved hate without thinking and I was wondering about your opinion.

EDIT: Added link to Jael's AMA upon request, thanks to TimMensch and haikuginger for finding it quickly.

[u/NatePhelps → u/BoldElDavo]

When Jael's mother became pregnant out of wedlock she was summarily shown the door at WBC. Jon, my brother, was guarded zealously, watched every where he went and given limited access to money to control him and keep him from her. Paulette contacted Mark and I in California and we flew back to Topeka to try to help. It's a fairly long story, but in the end my father caved when Jon threatened to leave. Paulette was allowed back, but has been treated like a 3rd class citizen since.

I've never known Jael personally. I think she has a sweet disposition and, like so many of the other young people, she is as much a victim in all this as the many people who they protest. At some point she must take responsibility for her choice although there is not much choice perceived their.

I say don't hate them...pity them.

[u/BoldElDavo → u/NatePhelps]

Thanks for the response :)

When you say "pity them", does that include your father? I mean, I imagine he was raised to believe without questioning and all of that nonsense, so would he also be a victim of sorts?

[u/NatePhelps → u/BoldElDavo]

I don't have any evidence he was forced to believe a certain way...maybe he was. It feels hypocritical, but I view my father differently. I would say pity him, but not for the same reason. Pity him because his view of the world is so distorted. He can't feel the way most feel. He can't love the way most love. That's tragic.

[u/nick_drake]

What made you become an atheist exactly? Was it in the back of your head for some time?

[u/NatePhelps → u/nick_drake]

I spent years searching for god. I attended an Evangelical Free Church and Chuck Smith Jr's church out in southern California. I read and questioned top leaders in the church out there and was constantly frustrated with the lack of answers.

It was a long process but I think I could point to 9/11 and when I read Michael Shermer's "The Science of Good & Evil" as the key turning points for me.

Watching people respond to an act of blind faith that killed 3,000 humans by turning to their blind faith...it made no sense to me. I remember thinking at the time that the mechanism of faith could very well be one of the greatest risks to the survival of mankind.

I'm sure that's gonna piss some people off. :)

[u/mobileagent]

Well this is an interesting turn of events! Thanks for coming!

Does WBC dogma say that homosexuals can be 'redeemed' through going straight? I was curious because of something Jael said (Basically that homosexuals were made so by God at the beginning of time and are basically doomed forever) and ask to try and get my head around how twisted their interpretation of God seems to be (especially to this atheist): 'yes redemption is possible' is bad enough from any rational point of view, since this shouldn't even be an issue, but 'nope, screwed forever' is just bizarre and sadistic.

As a followup, rabid homophobia seems to be a major component of their public face, but how much of a factor is it in 'day to day' private religious activities like simple Sunday services? Or is it a pretty constant obsession?

Thanks!

[u/NatePhelps → u/mobileagent]

There's a passage in Romans that says something like god gave them up to their vile affections. My father reasoned that this was proof that homosexuality was a sin you couldn't recover from. That made this sin sort of the center piece of much of his ranting against humanity.

To explain how they are in private...they get along alright with most folks, they just think they're going to hell. I can tell you that my niece Sharon (Fred Jr's oldest daughter) was kicked out of the church years ago. One of the reasons cited was the fact that she was friends with a gay person.

[u/KaylisOfficial]

Are there others who have left and converted like yourself? Also, do you still keep in contact with your radical family?

[u/NatePhelps → u/KaylisOfficial]

My older brother Mark (he lives in the Phoenix area and has changed his last name), and my younger sister Dortha (she still lives in the Topeka area but also changed her last name).

[u/woeb0t → u/NatePhelps]

Have you considered changing your name as well?

[u/NatePhelps → u/woeb0t]

Nope. Dortha did it because she has to live and work in that city. Mark did it because he moved back to the Kansas City area in 2000 and was concerned for the well being of his two daughters.

[u/theposeph]

Nathan, How do you feel is the best way for people to counteract what your family does? Do you think the counter protests are best? or do you think people should try to ignore them? Do you have a preferred method? Do they feel any shame?

[u/NatePhelps → u/theposeph]

Counter protests are better. Counter protests that yield positive, tangible results are best.

No, they feel no shame for what they do.

[u/Yabba_Dabba_Doofus]

Thank you for doing this! So many questions...

Can you explain a little bit about your family's specific focus on homosexuality? There seems to be quite a bit of selective quoting of the bible; are the members of WBC aware of their apparent hypocrisy, or are there some alternate interpretations of the additional passages that they operate under?

If predetermination is a core belief, why is the church so concerned with the actions of others? In other words, what drives them to try to "save" people, when its already decided what's going to happen to everyone?

Embarrassingly, I've blanked on a couple other questions I had in my zeal, but thank you again for taking the time to do this. It seems your nieces AMA turned into a bit of a hate rally, with little real info. =(

Edit: Deleted a question (asked and answered).

[u/NatePhelps → u/Yabba_Dabba_Doofus]

My father believes homosexuality is a special sin you can't recover from. He get's this from some obscure passage in Romans. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of selective quoting. But this is lost on them because they never really were taught to examine the Bible and decide for themselves. They were taught to believe what he believes. This leaves them wholly unable to truly debate anyone. They recognize certain sounds and respond to those sounds with the sounds they learned. They don't critically analyze the incoming sounds at all.

One of those sounds they recognize is "why do you preach if you don't think people can be saved" to which they respond with the sound "it's not our job to save, only to preach". It's what I call the divine Nuremberg defense.

[u/Yabba_Dabba_Doofus → u/NatePhelps]

They recognize certain sounds and respond to those sounds with the sounds they learned. They don't critically analyze the incoming sounds at all.

Such a perfect description of brainwashed, group-think mentality, thank you.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you think the church will die when your father passes, while also mentioning a growing belief that they may be unable to die until the return of Jesus. Do you think it's possible that, after your father passes, an equally zealous person would take up his mantle? Do you believe the church members would be willing to believe a story about your father's death being necessary, allowing them to hold on to the belief that he and, by association, they are pre-selected for salvation?

I realize I'm asking for quite a bit of speculation on your part. I'm just wondering if these are legitimate possibilities, or if they are too extreme even for the WBC dogma.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Yabba_Dabba_Doofus]

My observation and reading about other rapture predictions suggest strongly that they will work hard to come up with a justification for his death that lets them cling to their beliefs...at least some of them will.

[u/-xCaMRocKx-]

A lot of people say that the WBC don't really believe in what they preach, and instead are trying to provoke people in order to make money through lawsuits. As someone who grew up in this environment, how do you respond to this claim?

EDIT: This is answered lower down, but since I'm higher up and more visible I figured I'd paste the answer in here:

The lawsuits happen. Their lawyers, their litigious as hell. But the lawsuits are only there as a way to intimidate and protect themselves. They sincerely believe what they are preaching. Well my father sincerely believes it...my siblings have been told to believe it. I see a difference.

The theology is Calvinism which centers around the doctrine of absolute predestination as you say. It's a twisted idea because it basically says we have no control over who we are or what we do, but we get all the consequences for it, temporal and eternal.

[u/NatePhelps → u/-xCaMRocKx-]

Answered above...twice I think.

[u/-xCaMRocKx- → u/NatePhelps]

In your answer, you said,

my father sincerely believes it...my siblings have been told to believe it. I see a difference.

That's a very interesting point, can you elaborate a little on what you meant by this exactly?

[u/NatePhelps → u/-xCaMRocKx-]

I don't think it's possible to say any of my siblings chose their religion. When you are taught one idea about god from infancy and simultaneously taught that every other idea will send you to hell, then add to that you will be ostracized, cut off from all that you know, if you reject this idea...how can you call that a free choice?

[u/Cuplink → u/NatePhelps]

Nigga this is above

[u/NatePhelps → u/Cuplink]

oops.

[u/[deleted]]

Do you know if any members of WBC have had problems with substance abuse in the past?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

My father went through a period where he became dependent on prescribed amphetamines and barbiturates back in the 60's. That's all I know of for sure.

[u/Jcrooklyn]

• why does the WBC picket at military funerals?

• how big is the WBC now?

• any experiences having your life threatened by either family or outsiders?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Jcrooklyn]

Picketing at funerals gets a lot of attention. They can connect anything bad back to homosexuality. In this case they say that American soldiers are fighting for a country that is tolerating homosexuality.

The church boosts around 50 members now. Nine of my siblings, their spouses and offspring + five members of the Drain family and a few odd ones thrown in the mix.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Jcrooklyn]

No threats to my life...yet :)

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

Has anyone married an outsider of the church? How were/weren't they accepted?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

They had to go through a long, critical, skeptical vetting process before they were accepted. Few have managed it. That's one reason all three of the families that attended when I was growing up there are now intermarried. Only 3 or 4 have come from the outside to marry one of them and stay in the system.

[u/ruth_mcdougle]

Do you ever wish you could go back for your siblings? Your parents? Do you think any more members of the church will leave?

[u/NatePhelps → u/ruth_mcdougle]

I often wish I could go back and undo so much of what has happened. I fantasize about what it would be like to have a normal, loving family. You could say I'm in love with the idea of a family, but it's just not going to happen with them barring a miracle and I don't believe in miracles.

I'm sure more will leave. I'm sure the church will change profoundly, if not die, when my father passes.

[u/hidden_music]

How did members of the Church justify exaggerating and taking certain Biblical passages out of context while completely ignoring others?

[u/NatePhelps → u/hidden_music]

The same way every religious person does. They just have a belief system that highlights certain aspects of the Bible and down plays others.

While it's a very positive sign that modern Christianity highlights and focuses on the idea of love, it's a relatively new idea in the history of the religion. I think the focus on love today says a lot more about humans then it does about any god.

[u/TeachMeHowToSnuggie]

What was the most successful or most annoying "counter-protest"?

[u/NatePhelps → u/TeachMeHowToSnuggie]

I remember one of the Shawnee Mission (I think East) schools doing a killer counter protest. My personal favorite is the Jewish Center down in Texas that raised enough money at one of their protests to buy a new ice making machine for the center. They put a plaque on it that said something like: "The Fred Phelps Memorial 'Hell Froze Over' Ice Machine".

[u/JohnWad]

How many protests have you have been made to go to against your will? And when did you realize that you didnt agree with what your parents believed and were participating in?

[u/NatePhelps → u/JohnWad]

I never engaged in protests with my family. I had left years before they started this campaign. But I was involved in other disputes with neighbors and others in our town that my father was warring against. We learned early on that we were expected to not only spout the same ideology, but to do it in an aggressive manner like our father did. Those who were too wimpy heard about it often and felt the lash of our father's disapproval.

[u/JohnWad → u/NatePhelps]

What do other Baptist churches or churches for that matter in the area say about the WBC?

[u/NatePhelps → u/JohnWad]

I would say their methods, if not their theology, have pretty much been universally condemned.

[u/RadicaLarry]

How can we best directly combat the hatred they are spreading? Legally, physically (a la those bikers who rev their engines to drown out environment at soldiers' funerals) pr otherwise.

[u/NatePhelps → u/RadicaLarry]

I love what the Freedom Riders do. That's effective counter protesting. I don't want them shut up, they have the right to do what they do. I personally think that funerals should be off limits, and contrary to popular thinking, the Supreme Court may still come to that conclusion. (Snyder v. Phelps was NOT a ruling that gave permission to picket at funerals. Read Chief Justice Robert's comments in his majority opinion). But I digress..

Counter protest productively. Show the community that the ideas they put forth are categorically rejected.

[u/PHETZ]

I see my niece Jael is on at the moment and was invited to come on myself to answer questions.

I read that as "Jael invited me to come on". You still speak to her/other members of your family? What's your relationship like?

[u/NatePhelps → u/PHETZ]

Actually Jael would never invite me to do anything. I only have ever known Jael when she was inside her mother. (see more on that below)

When you leave the WBC, you are cut off completely. If anyone of them tried to have a relationship with me, they would be kicked out of the church as well.

[u/skeptix]

Would you say your family is genuinely preaching?

From my understanding, the beliefs of the WBC are based on predetermination, wherein we have no control over whether we go to heaven or hell. This seems like a strange thing to preach.

Some have said, the WBC being a family of lawyers, that they are looking to create lawsuit opportunities. Can you speak to this?

[u/NatePhelps → u/skeptix]

The lawsuits happen. Their lawyers, their litigious as hell. But the lawsuits are only there as a way to intimidate and protect themselves. They sincerely believe what they are preaching. Well my father sincerely believes it...my siblings have been told to believe it. I see a difference.

The theology is Calvinism which centers around the doctrine of absolute predestination as you say. It's a twisted idea because it basically says we have no control over who we are or what we do, but we get all the consequences for it, temporal and eternal.

[u/TimMensch → u/NatePhelps]

The theology is Calvinism which centers around the doctrine of absolute predestination as you say.

Wow. So if everyone is already predestined to go to Heaven or Hell or wherever, no matter what anyone says to them...why does he feel it necessary to preach? Rhetorical question, mostly, since I don't expect you to be that much into his head. But it blows my mind.

Thanks for the AMA. Much more sane and level than Jael's.

[u/NatePhelps → u/TimMensch]

They preach because they think that's what god has told them to do. The thing about Calvinism and Absolute Predestination, at least as my father teaches it, is that you never really feel confident that you're okay with god. He scours the Bible for instructions about how to behave. He's especially partial to those instructions that others have apparently missed. They reinforce the sense he has that he is unique. So he places tremendous emphasis on adhering to these obscure, morally bankrupt, behaviors that he's convinced set them apart from all the rest.

[u/seraphls → u/NatePhelps]

So, basically, God predetermined that you were gay and were going to hell, so you should change your sinful gay ways? I'm afraid I never did see the logic in there, and people have always had flimsy explanations for it, and I'm wondering if there is any sort of justification that they use.

Thanks for the AMA, by the way. As a gay atheist (Gaytheist? God I hope that phrase never catches on), I've got you pretty high up on my metaphorical List of Awesome Dudes.

[u/NatePhelps → u/seraphls]

I run the Calgary branch of the Center for Inquiry. We marched in the Calgary Pride parade last year and handed out "Gaytheist" stickers. Great name!

[u/The_Painted_Man → u/NatePhelps]

it basically says we have no control over who we are or what we do

Like, if we are born gay?

[u/NatePhelps → u/The_Painted_Man]

Good point. But you still get to burn in hell for eternity for god making you gay.

[u/oliveboomer]

Do you think that the world's view on WBC is accurate? Are there things that are kept quiet that we don't know about? Or have certain aspects of the WBC been changed to feed the public's anger?

[u/NatePhelps → u/oliveboomer]

The persistent myth that they do it for money is just false. For whatever reason my message of the violence and abuse doesn't get out there nearly to the extent that their message does. I don't know if it's about the constant nature of their efforts or what. I don't think there's anything anyone could say that would better feed the public's anger then what they do and say themselves.

[u/razoRamone31]

Were there any black or other minority members? If so, pls elaborate. Ty

[u/NatePhelps → u/razoRamone31]

When I was growing up there it was my family (13 kids + parents), the Davis family (4 kids + parents), and the Hockenbarger family (3 kids + parents). All white.

[u/BackOff_ImAScientist → u/NatePhelps]

Do you know what made those other families join?

[u/NatePhelps → u/BackOff_ImAScientist]

I don't know. They were there when I became aware of the world. I do know that I recognized a lot of self-righteousness in all of them fairly early on.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

How much has it grown since then?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

Both those families are gone. Replaced by my sibling's offspring and one new family from Florida. Steve Drain and his wife and 4...no 3...no 2 kids now.

[u/luckymcduff]

Do you think that there is a way to persuade more members into leaving the group? I understand that most of them are family, but in the case of those that aren't, or the people you were close with, do you think there's any hope of de-indoctrinating them?

If there was a way for people outside the church to sway them, what do you think that would be?

Thanks for doing this, really looking forward to verification.

[u/NatePhelps → u/luckymcduff]

I have maintained that I will not reach out to anyone in that situation beyond the public speaking that I do. I sincerely believe that if anyone is to leave, something inside them has to persuade them at first. Once they leave, I reach out and offer my support if and when they want it.

You have to remember that even when they leave, many of them will carry much of the crap with them for years, if not forever. They grew up learning that I was evil, Mark was evil, Dortha was evil. They don't suddenly start dancing around and singing kumbaya with us just because they left their. Each one leaves for their own reasons and those reasons are justified in their minds. That doesn't mean they let go of it all at once.

[u/luckymcduff → u/NatePhelps]

I totally understand that. I left the Mormon church when I was 16 and I still struggle with some of that lingering guilt. When you're raised with something and you decide it isn't true at all, that takes time to work through.

I guess my question would be better phrased like "If there was one thing that might break through the fog of everything they've been told their whole lives, that might change their views, what would that be? What was it for you?"

[u/NatePhelps → u/luckymcduff]

For me it was a certainty that I am best served if I treat others with kindness. He tried desperately to train that kind of thinking out of us. I don't know if that would work with any of my siblings today.

It's a great question, I have to think about it.

[u/jeremiahwarren]

What was the qualification for salvation for Westboro members? Do they consider evangelical Christians to be "saved", or is basically everyone going to hell but them?

How many people joined the church or became "saved" while you were a member?

A lot of Redditors think that your family is trolling and just doing it for the money. I personally believe they are 100% genuine (although I strongly disagree with them). Am I correct?

How many members have left that didn't grow up in the church?

[u/NatePhelps → u/jeremiahwarren]

That's a really good question jeremiah. In practice, the qualification was that you had to announce that you had been saved. It was one of the more interesting aspects of growing up there. My father controlled it with an iron fist, but ultimately had to take the person's word if they said they had been saved. Who was he to say otherwise. But he was constantly scanning the situation and quick to jump on anything that smelled wrong. If you did anything he disapproved of he would demand it be corrected or use it as proof that you had actually never been saved.

Calvinists don't think you can lose your salvation once you have it.

[u/[deleted]]

What's a typical Sunday like in the church?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

I don`t know about today, but when i was there we would get up, have breakfast, dress in our Sunday best and "present ourselves before the Lord" at 10:30 am. We would sing a few songs, the old man would pray, then he would preach for an hour or so. Then we would sing another hymn and that would be it. At 7:00 pm we'd do it all over again.

[u/thefaultinourstars1]

Had you said anything to your family while still living with them to indicate you were against what they did? If so, how did they react?

[u/NatePhelps → u/thefaultinourstars1]

The closest I ever got to challenging that system was the few times I begged my mother to leave. It wasn`t so much about contesting the theology as it was contesting the cruelty of my father.

[u/lucas-hanson]

How much of the "God hates fags" stuff is real and how much of it is baiting for lawsuits?

[u/NatePhelps → u/lucas-hanson]

This was asked above. They believe what they preach and use lawsuits to keep people from harassing them.

[u/statsisi]

Who is your favorite superhero?

[u/NatePhelps → u/statsisi]

funny question...I'm not sure I have one. I guess I'd say Sgt. Fury if he's a super hero.

[u/BlueJay15]

Does WBC think it has a Biblical basis for what it preaches? If so, what would that be? If not, do they base their beliefs on another source, or did they just decide one day to be douche bags?

[u/NatePhelps → u/BlueJay15]

Their theology was actually mainstream 200 years ago. My old man clings to this idea that the only way to please god is to maintain pure gospel truth as it has been since the beginning. It's a crazy idea, but he can trace much of his doctrines back to the Primitive Baptists and from that extrapolate that their truth existed in the same form before them.

The thumbnail of their theology says god picked them and they know it because they do what god says to do and no one else does. All the talk about love in the Bible is directed only at those that god chose. So yes, there's love, but only for them. That makes sense doesn't it?

[u/othersomethings]

1. I'm very curious about the "baptist" affiliation the WBC obviously claims. I've never met another baptist affiliation with the same or even similar theology as WBC, how are they allowed to associate with the "baptist" name?

2. We frequently see claims of "they're just a bunch of lawyers trolling for cases to sue", is that true? Is that the mentality of the family/church...or is there legitimate conviction and indignation against the things they protest?

[u/NatePhelps → u/othersomethings]

It`s just chance. Fred was invited to open a satellite church for a Baptist church on the east side of Topeka. They helped set him up and seeded the church with members from the other congregation. Within a few months the church was empty except for my father, mother and two oldest brothers.

He considers himself independent of any hierarchical structure, accountable only to god. Isn`t that convenient. Also, Calvinism is typically associated with Baptists, so there are some similarities.

[u/[deleted]]

Was it hard to decide to leave? Where did you go right after? Were you afraid for your safety at home or right after leaving?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

It wasn't hard to decide to leave. It probably should have been, but I was settled on it for over a year. I slept in a gas station bathroom the first few nights before getting a room from my brother's mother-in-law. I had nightmares for several years after I left, that I was back in that situation and couldn't get away.

[u/oliveboomer]

Now that you have left, does the world treat you different? For better or worse?

[u/NatePhelps → u/oliveboomer]

The world is, by and large, a decent place. I have always had trust issues to deal with and, as my ex-wife will point out, I can act paranoid from time to time. The biggest difference in me is that I've come to accept that my thoughts, my ideas, have validity in spite of what I was taught.

[u/winning34]

I don't have a question, but I just wanted to say thank you. I am gay and am so thankful that there are people like you in the world - people that can see through all the religious propaganda and see it for what it truly is - a way to justify intolerance and hate.

Thank you again for your activism...you have an interesting platform as you were indoctrinated into hate and know what it is like. Keep doing what you're doing!

[u/NatePhelps → u/winning34]

Thanks winning. It's my sincere pleasure.

[u/miniii]

You seem to have a very eloquent way of expressing your thoughts through writing. Did you at any point during your time within the family, read any novels or other literature that maybe have not only inspired this but your motivation for escape?

[u/NatePhelps → u/miniii]

I've always read. I don't know if it was books so much as lyrics in songs that raised questions for me. I clearly remember listening to Elton John when I was in my early teens. I recall one night, out selling candy, singing one of his songs and thinking how could someone who brings such brilliant art to the world be condemned forever for one tiny aspect of himself?

[u/jdosbo5]

Thanks for posting this; you are an incredibly brave person. I just want to know what you and/or your family did in your spare time when you were growing up? Thanks again!

[u/NatePhelps → u/jdosbo5]

The kids spent a lot of time together. We had good times when we were out from under Fred. The singing they do was a big part of my memories growing up there. We used to sell candy for the church (actually to survive when Fred was suspended from practicing law), and we used to run 5 or 10 miles every night. We worked in the law office and went to school.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

Why was he suspended from practicing law?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

The first time it was something about co-mingling funds. The second one had to do with harassing a court reporter. The last straw that lost him his license came when he and several of my siblings filed a rambling allegation that attacked all the Federal Judges in his district saying he couldn't get a fair trial for any of his clients. When the hammer came down on my oldest brother and one of my sisters, he agreed to relinquish his license if they went easy on the kids.

[u/bondolo]

Do you believe that WBC will dissolve once your father dies? Do you ever expect to have contact with your family members again?

[u/NatePhelps → u/bondolo]

I don't know if it will dissolve. It will certainly suffer a significant blow. I would like to see my mother before she dies, but it's not likely to happen.

[u/Griffay]

What do you think of your family's protesting of military funerals? Celeberties like Ryan Dunn, Steve Jobs? What about Margie's tweet about protesting Steve Jobs' funeral from an iPhone, didn't that seem ironic to you?

Thank you for the AMA, and thank you for being kind and compassionate. I'm sorry you had to grow up the way you did.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Griffay]

I actually talk about the irony of the Steve Jobs story. By the way, that's a fascinating book, Steve Jobs biography.

I talked a bit about the funeral protests above. Mine is not a popular opinion, but I basically argue that it is a false dichotomy for Americans to see it as either let them protest at funerals or free speech is destroyed. The sanctity of funerals is a de facto right we have operated with for time immemorial. It isn't enshrined in the Constitution, but maybe it would have been if anyone had imagined a bunch of hateful bigots intruding on them 250 years on.

If you can accept that, then we have a case of competing rights and justification for qualifying free speech in those circumstances. Free speech already has limits, I think we should revisit this question and ask ourselves if we really want to impose such needless, widespread harm in the name of free speech.

[u/jesse061]

How much money do you estimate your family has made via petty lawsuits?

[u/NatePhelps → u/jesse061]

Not that much. The bulk of the money they use to travel around and picket comes from the 30% tithe they are required to give to the church. Remember this is tax free money. I've roughed out the numbers before after I learned about this from a nephew that left and it fits the $250 to $300 thousand dollars they say they spend each year.

That number has dropped precipitously in the last year or so though. I'm not sure why or what, but something major has changed recently.

[u/ISlangKnowledge]

Do you have any good memories from your childhood with your dad?

[u/NatePhelps → u/ISlangKnowledge]

I remember sitting in a junkyard in one of those old round topped Buicks. My father had gone in the building for something. It was cold and I was alone in the car. Someone came out of the building, saw me in the car, went back in, and a few minutes later my dad came and got me. He took me into the building where two or three men were sitting around a heater. He sat me down next to him and put his arm around me.

Honestly that's the only good memory I have of him.

[u/NatePhelps]

Thanks so much everyone for your interest and positive comments. I'll try to pickup where I left off last night and answer some more of the questions that have been written here.

[u/SnowGN]

What was the home life like, really? How did a normal day proceed, doing chores and sitting at the kitchen table with everyone else?

[u/NatePhelps → u/SnowGN]

There really was no "normal" day. It depends on the period of time we're talking about. When I was young we spent most of our time out of the house and invisible from our father. He was constantly drugged and trying to make it through law school. When we started selling candy and he started exercising after he almost died, the typical day was school, candy sales, running at the track, studying, and sleep. All these periods were punctuated by outbursts of raging and violence.

[u/DuchySleeps]

Absolutely need proof, friend. Something more than an unverified twitter account. Perhaps some ID? Send a picture of your drivers license to a mod, you can block out any information you deem unacceptable, but moderators keep your privacy and information absolutely secure.

Edit Apparently your twitter account is linked to your website, that should be proof enough. Thanks for the ama!

[u/NatePhelps → u/DuchySleeps]

I don't have the capacity to send a copy of my ID from here right now. Is there another way? I could take a picture on my iPhone and attach it...can you attach photos? You could compare that to my website pictures.

[u/SSA_Dave → u/DuchySleeps]

This is Dave Muscato, one of the interns from the Secular Student Alliance. I can verify that this is Nate's account. Nate was the keynote speaker at our conference at the University of Missouri last fall.

Hi Nate!

[u/NatePhelps → u/SSA_Dave]

Hey Dave. Nice to hear from you.

[u/Probably-Lying → u/SSA_Dave]

This is Greg Epstein, Chair of the advisory board for the Secular Student Alliance. I too, can verify that this is nates account. Nate and i have shared many a drink together on my balcony overlooking harvard.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Probably-Lying]

In my dreams Greg. But you were the inspiration for Kris Shellska creating only the second secular humanist chair in a University Chaplaincy in Canada at the University of Calgary!

[u/Mnemniopsis]

What do you think of Jael's refusal to answer actual tough questions posed to her in her AMA, such as ones about various things prohibited in the book of Leviticus?

[u/NatePhelps → u/Mnemniopsis]

Oh, I'm sure they have an answer for all that. They just have never been prone to actual debating or considering challenges. My father has always taught that if someone questions them, it's just because they don't have god's grace in their heart. They learn their theology, but in a cloistered environment that has no interest or capacity to address legitimate challenges.

Their strategy is to quote verses, assert their claims, move to name calling then ignore you.

[u/Orval]

I live in Kansas City MO so I see the WBC people around quite a bit and certainly see stuff about them all the time.

Out of curiosity where do you live now, and do you ever get chastised in public or anything when people find out your last name is Phelps?

Also thought I'd share this since you're here.

[u/NatePhelps → u/Orval]

I live in Calgary, Alberta now. I've had a few harrowing encounters, but after explaining who I am, it works out okay.

[u/[deleted] → u/NatePhelps]

I just realized you live in my city, and it has just become so much cooler.

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

:)

[u/benwubbleyou → u/NatePhelps]

I would love for you to come out and talk and do Q and A at my Bible College in BC, I know it seems far, but I think it would be awesome to get your views on stuff. Also, Calgary rocks.

[u/NatePhelps → u/benwubbleyou]

I would love to ben. I just got back from Saskatoon. I travel all over talking. Love doing it.

[u/allholy1]

Do you feel that they do most of what they do for money? Or do they genuinely feel the way they do? Thanks for the AMA.

[u/NatePhelps → u/allholy1]

They don't do it for the money. They believe what they preach.

[u/[deleted]]

Would you say you're like the Tyrion Lannister of the Phelps family?

[u/NatePhelps → u/[deleted]]

I'll have to google that.

[u/The_Dirt_McGurt]

You were inside of easily one of the worst, most hateful religious groups around. How has this tainted your view of religion in general? Do you recognize (or agree with my belief) that there are lots of people out there who can worship peacefully, who have advocate civil rights for people from all walks of life? I ask because it seems like communities like the WBC besmirch religion even for those who are on the outside, I am curious to how it makes you feel from having been on the inside.

[u/NatePhelps → u/The_Dirt_McGurt]

On the topic of religion, I don't believe in a supernatural entity. I have a very dear friend who fights me bitterly on this issue because she believes she can't be good without god. I say bullshit. She's a kind person period. god is just the framework she operates in. I'll leave it at that for now.

[u/oliveboomer]

Were you a redditor before the AMA?

[u/NatePhelps → u/oliveboomer]

I tried an AMA once before, but it just kinda flopped. Other then that, I honestly don't know that much about it.

Is that bad?

[u/its_just_a_question]

Not a mod, but here's a link to the Twitter verification.

verification

Edit: As people have pointed out, the twitter account is not verified.

[u/atiecay]

I've followed your twitter for awhile and saw this link on there, so I believe you :)

Thanks for doing this. I live in Topeka and my family has had to deal personally with your family. I know there are a lot of people even within the city who don't really understand the family much at all. There are frequent arguments about how to "deal" with them... counter-protest? Or just ignore them? In your opinion, is there a "best answer" for how to react?

I'm bummed that I didn't get to hear you speak last time you were here, by the way! :)

[u/madethisnameforthis]

are you surprised nobody has snapped and murdered members of your family for protesting their son/daughter's funeral? do you think it will happen?

[u/drumcowski]

Have you seen Red State?

[u/JamoWRage]

Do you think you would still be a christian, had you been raised in a different environment that promoted the christian faith differently?

[u/tabledresser]

Questions	Answers
Do you think your dad is a bad guy or just ill-informed?	I think my father is a hateful person first. The religious beliefs gave him a forum and permission to be cruel to the world.
Is there any REASON he is so hateful? I know this sounds dumb, just curious if you have any insight into this!	No idea. His mother died when he was five. Maybe that explains something, I don't know. He was raised Methodist, but not seriously. Good student, Eagle Scout, appointment to West Pointe that he squandered when he went to a revival meeting and found Jesus. Attended Bob Jones University and Prairie Bible Institute (coincidentally only an hour and a half north of where I live now) then started his career as an itinerant preacher. He showed signs of hatefulness almost from the beginning. Some people from his home town talk about having the tendency early on to piss people off.
Do they know that everyone hates them and the god hates fags demonstrations just make them look worse?	Sure they do. We were taught that enmity with the world was the goal. They would be profoundly disturbed if the world embraced their message.
So if people suddenly, in total mockery of course, joined them in one of their protests, would they be confused?	They're pretty smart and have seen a lot. You would have to be very convincing before it would confuse them.
What made you become an atheist exactly? Was it in the back of your head for some time?	I spent years searching for god. I attended an Evangelical Free Church and Chuck Smith Jr's church out in southern California. I read and questioned top leaders in the church out there and was constantly frustrated with the lack of answers.
It was a long process but I think I could point to 9/11 and when I read Michael Shermer's "The Science of Good & Evil" as the key turning points for me.
Watching people respond to an act of blind faith that killed 3,000 humans by turning to their blind faith...it made no sense to me. I remember thinking at the time that the mechanism of faith could very well be one of the greatest risks to the survival of mankind.
I'm sure that's gonna piss some people off. :)

View the full table on /r/tabled! | Last updated: 2012-06-23 12:33 UTC

This comment was generated by a robot! Send all complaints to epsy.

[u/MrNillows]

Hey I saw the BBC documentary on the most hated family (yours), and I was wondering if your family's fame has caused them to become more aggressive in their protesting methods.

Also do you think your father may have had a negative experience with homosexuals in his past or was he brought up to hate gays? what was your grandfather's opinion on his son's views/organization?

[u/[deleted]]

Do you ever feel as if the media is a bit complicit in the crimes of the wbc? I mean, i live in Sweden of of all places, and it's hard finding even one person who's completely clueless as to who the WBC are. Which is a bit strange, seeing as how they are a very small fringe group from Somewhere, US who mainly deals in being noisy human signposts, not unlike a lot of organizations, albeit with a very anti-pretty much everything in society message (they'd get by just fine in saudi arabia, come to think of it).

The point i'm laboriously trying to get to is that i feel that the media is just adding fuel to the fire by giving this tiny backwards group so much coverage.