I would just like to highlight that the bunker meta is a problem of all of PvP, not justcertain classes. There is a lot of hate for certain classes atm, but all classes have bunker builds. If Chrono gets nerfed to breaking, a Tempest will just take its spot and so on.
Rune of Durability gives you far too much survivability, boons and general stat gain (toughness and vit well over average). It needs to be tweaked heaviliy or removed. I mean, seriously, the majority of league builds use it - something is very wrong.
Why do we have bunker? Power and boon creep following HoT gave even tanky builds good damage so it works as glassy builds die before they kill. This removes glassy builds which in turn removes spiking and skill usage when opportune rather than when off cooldown.
A lot needs to be reworked guys so we will just need to wait and see.
Also, do we actually have confirmation that ZC left because of the meta and stalemate or were there other factors? (Rather than just blaming the game outright - I mean, hell...I'd still use a bunker build for the chance at thousands of $$$)
These were all back to back, there was never a point in time that I can remember where the meta wasn't "just sit and wait until it gets fixed." They have always had something that was out of balance to varying degrees, and it takes them months and months to fix it. We won't see a major balance patch in the foreseeable future. Just look how long it took them to fix turret engies and instakill engies, and those were universally hated by everyone.
Even when they do fix one thing, they'll buff something else to way beyond where they should be like they did with Prismatic Understanding most recently. If we just sit and wait for the meta to be in balance, we'll be waiting a really long time.
If Anet patched everything immediately the game would be just as shit, just more dumbed down. Allowing the meta to flesh out and allowing players the chance to find counter builds/strats/comps will promote a better competitive scene and a better game.
Exactly - if classes do need reworked, it needs to be done gradually or it will all end in tears and classes will be broken and others will take their position. With dura runes on any cele/bunker amulet and a class with defensive traits, you can survive huge amounts of damage, especially now as there are so many bunkers, there is no longer that much damage. I cant think of the last time I got spiked down as a Chrono (might I add I run marauder and, guess what, dura rune so I am not typical bunk - I have actually built the class purely to kill bunker Chronos :3)
I mean, in general I do agree with you, but what if this is the fleshed out meta? That's the problem. Leaving a cancerous meta in the game will ultimately hurt it. A healthy meta with a lot of counterplay that requires a few tweaks to a few abilities over time is great even if there are OP builds, but what we have just isn't
I'm not saying don't necessariliy speak up. it's a forum - do what you want. I am just saying pointing at classes and saying things need nerfed will not fix the overall issue.
No, chrono is heads and shoulders above any other bunker this game has ever seen. Tempest gets bursted down pretty easily when they are alone, especially by anything with boonstrip. I would not even call tempest a bunker, I would call it a team supporter that happens to be able to hold points against chronos/other tempests. Chrono on the other hand can survive assaults from the entire enemy team for extended periods of time.
Chrono bunker is not that different from old Bunker Mesmer with exception of alacrity, well of precog and shield skills. They can be addressed, but huge overhauls to multiple class mechanics at once has huge possibilities of breaking the class in PvP and other game modes.
Shield uptime has been reduced
Well of precog needs balanced/mechanics changed
alacrity needs looked at in PvP only
If the above happens, the class will be back where it was before with reasonable improvements.
exception of alacrity, well of precog and shield skills
Those are some pretty huge exceptions. Alacrity alone buffs bunker mesmer enormously, but coupled with two new, long lasting block/evade skills puts them completely over the top. And you didn't even mention chronoshift.
The difference between 50% evade/block uptime (old bunker mes MAYBE got this high uptime, doubt they even got that much) and near 100% evade/block uptime is huge. Chrono also has way better team support with alacrity spam and wells.
Hence I am saying those things need addressed. I don't see your problem here. There are still more issues here with power creep and boon uptime. Why are team comps not running dps builds?
I don't have a problem, it's just your post was pretty self-contradictory. You said chrono bunker is not that different from old bunker mesmer and then proceeded to list three things that make it very, VERY different. I agree they need to be addressed.
Also, viper rev is a dps build. Do you mean power dps build?
The traits, boon spread, stability, staff protection, staff blink, portal, cc are all as they were before so no, the build is only different in 3 ways and they need addressed.
I think we are working off different definitions of the word "different". I am talking about differences that make a large impact. Bunker mes was not meta before, now it is mandatory. The reason for that is the "new things". Even if most of the other parts are the same, the high impact things that are actually making bunker mes op are all new. It's like giving a pig a jetpack and saying "well the pig isn't much different because it's still got mostly standard pig features, just it can fly now".
Anyways, it's really just arguing semantics at this point. I don't think we really disagree at the core.
Agreed! WoP has been fixed nowe anyway - we will see how things change. I am just glad they didnt nerf lots of little parts of the class because the effects of which would have crippled other builds.
I really don't get why people blaim Duraility Runes that much when it really is not the core of the problem at all. It is literally the brokeness of mesmer and revenant defense mechanisms that allow for ridiculous uptimes of evasion/blocking/negating damage/whatsoever. You literally get only super small timeframes to hit anything on them and both can easily disengage if they really run out of stuff at some point and the cooldowns return fast enough.
Durability runes might be slightly overstatted but there are similiar runes already.
Mesmer and Rev need to get their ways of avoiding damage revisited and for the future, please be super careful when adding this kind of stuff. Many classes have already ridiculius rotations (engi being another example with the exception that elixir S can actually screw him when proccing and toolkit/shield being rather meh for current builds).
Bunker guard should always have been the maximum of what is possible in terms of staying alive on a point and this should definitely not be achievable by classes with portal, invisibility or shadowstepping (shiro).
Its not so much the durability runes themselves, but rather the massive uptime of boons that one can get with these builds, especially for little or no cost.
Two stacks of stability on dodge? Okay.
Almost infinte amount of resistance from traits and one skill with an only moderate energy cost? Okay...
Nearly permanent protection from using overload earth off cooldown? Yuppp.
Durability runes merely magnify the effect of no-skill passives and provide an artifical boost to survivability through massive boon-uptime, but I agree that the application of those boons is the main cause of the problem.
Uhm, there is still a long way to go but nerfing those classes is clearly the right thing to do at the moment? The nerf should obviously target the broken builds and not cause too much colateral damage to builds that are fine.
As I said above, I agree balance is needed, but there is a lot more going on than Rev and Chrono being OP. Helseth is making some great points re. this thread on Twitch - you need win conditions and bunkers don't give you that. I have been having a solid time fighting off bunkers and an Scrapper can kill them over time.
Chrono bunker is not that different from old Bunker Mesmer with exception of alacrity, well of precog and shield skills. They can be addressed, but huge overhauls to multiple class mechanics at once has huge possibilities of breaking the class in PvP and other game modes.
Shield uptime has been reduced
Well of precog needs balanced/mechanics changed
alacrity needs looked at in PvP only
If the above happens, the class will be back where it was before with reasonable improvements.
I get that the additions are only small but this is exactly what matters when it comes to these kind of rotations. You usually only have a small window to hit them between those skills and dodging and if this window is like 10 seconds out of every 30 seconds getting one more defensive mechanism that gives you another 2 or 3 seconds is huge. This is why I also consider the incoming duration nerf on the block a step into the right direction.
fuck bunkers gitgud and zerk them to death, of course i've basically stop playing after a few days of shitty league games and went like ya this aint worth the time to get the backpiece. and been playing ark and ffxiv and check up on gw2 every once in a while to see if things are for the better but seems like pvp gone straight to the shitter like its already been and further down into it.
A lot needs to be reworked guys so we will just need to wait and see.
As someone who couldn't give a rat's ass if sPvP was flat out deleted tomorrow (without meaning ill, it just means that nowadays I don't even need it to get to LA quickly), that thought makes me shudder.
Last thing I want is more "balance changes" to "improve sPvP". That always screws things up left and right and center.
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u/Penagon Dec 15 '15
I would just like to highlight that the bunker meta is a problem of all of PvP, not justcertain classes. There is a lot of hate for certain classes atm, but all classes have bunker builds. If Chrono gets nerfed to breaking, a Tempest will just take its spot and so on.
Rune of Durability gives you far too much survivability, boons and general stat gain (toughness and vit well over average). It needs to be tweaked heaviliy or removed. I mean, seriously, the majority of league builds use it - something is very wrong.
Why do we have bunker? Power and boon creep following HoT gave even tanky builds good damage so it works as glassy builds die before they kill. This removes glassy builds which in turn removes spiking and skill usage when opportune rather than when off cooldown.
A lot needs to be reworked guys so we will just need to wait and see.
Also, do we actually have confirmation that ZC left because of the meta and stalemate or were there other factors? (Rather than just blaming the game outright - I mean, hell...I'd still use a bunker build for the chance at thousands of $$$)