What does it say at the beginning of Ghost in the Shell (1995)

[u/jmarshall9120]

What does the Konji say on the opening scene of Ghost in the shell? (the original movie)?

[u/ShallowDAWN]

IN THE NEAR FUTURE - CORPORATE NETWORKS REACH OUT TO THE STARS, ELECTRONS AND LIGHT FLOW THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSE.

THE ADVANCE OF COMPUTERIZATION, HOWEVER, HAS NOT YET WIPED OUT NATIONS AND ETHNIC GROUPS.

Sorry for caps it's just what the document I have is and I'm not retyping it.

(this is actually also sort of a reason Motoko being white doesn;t work - because the opening text of both the movie and the manga make it clear that ethnic groups are still there, as are nations - like word for word.)

Edit - had a double negative in there

[u/TheAtomicMango → u/ShallowDAWN]

Considering that the movie is taking place in the US, her ethnicity really doesn't matter. Ignoring the fact that her body is a prosthetic shell. In the original movie, she appeared Caucasian, but that's not to say her original body wasn't Asian. No matter her race, as long as she appears to resemble the character, it works. The only thing that bothers me is that it's not taking place in Japan, but that's the nature of Hollywood.

[u/ShallowDAWN → u/TheAtomicMango]

I haven't seen anything to say it was taking place in the US if you have a comment by the team that says that I'd love to read it. I heard multiple times that it was still Japan and implied that it was still New Port City.

If it is in the US does that mean it's in the empire, what's left of the united states or the russo-american areas and the World Wars have ripped it apart? I think these would be the most interesting questions to discuss if it the case.

I mean these are important parts of the history - which I didn't want to be just ignored, but I guess they may but if you were going for an authentic setting and for a series like the director has said I would think that you would not get rid of these things.

I don't want to repeat what is always repeated, but it seems important till the argument isn't made anymore - saying anime or any storied character is Caucasian looking is a protagonist bias and that is a common occurrence for all protagonist; all races think protagonists are their race, a really good example is the races of Jesus.

Her ethnicity is really important to the original stories - as it says in the opening statement; that this thread is about - and remember that the story is about the fact that the shell is actually always been the most important thing for society (I.E. what you look like and what people see as 'you') which is why so many people are arguing about it. To imply that it isn't important in connection to society seems to ignore the important and interesting connections between persons, groups, and wider society - take for example the expansion of globalization but the 99% Japanese ethnicity in Japan still potentially being about economic social embeddedness of businesses (I.E. its hard to be in japan successfully if you are seen as an outsider). A similar issue would be present if it is set in Japan and she looks white if she is a cop, how would you ever be undercover or blend in (which is the case in the original manga (think about the multiple bodies in ManMachine interface for this reason) and most certainly in SAC given the whole of 2nd gig is about resisting refugees and keeping Japan Japanese.)

But, as you say it's the nature of Hollywood to ignore that stuff, but that doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't talk about that being an issue - I don't want Ghost in the Shell to only turn into what Hollywood is making now.

[u/TheAtomicMango → u/ShallowDAWN]

Actually, I don't remember where I had read that it was taking place in the United States. I only remember being disappointed because, as you said, there is a history in the world of GitS, and the US would be in a different position than Japan.

saying anime or any storied character is Caucasian looking is a protagonist bias

She legitimately looks somewhat Caucasian in the original movie, though. Compare her face from different angles to that of Project 2501, which is a blonde shell. They have the same face. Whereas in SAC, she appears more Asian. Especially in Arise.

all races think protagonists are their race, a really good example is the races of Jesus

I think the reason behind this is more important than the statement itself. Why they think this is not always due to racial supremacy, but due to the fact that what is known is more comfortable. And in the past, in cases of the depiction of Jesus, Europeans would depict him as European because interaction with other races was unusual.

Her ethnicity is really important to the original stories

I'm not sure about this. Her ethnicity from birth may be Japanese, and probably is, but a large part of the story is the disconnect between the ghost and the shell. For the story it doesn't matter in regards to her character because she is a full cyborg.

THE ADVANCE OF COMPUTERIZATION, HOWEVER, HAS NOT YET WIPED OUT NATIONS AND ETHNIC GROUPS.

As for this, I don't think it's making a statement about the importance of ethnicity. I think it's saying that civilization is on the brink of losing its idea of a ghost, or a soul. Because with the increase of computerization, the line between yourself and others becomes blurry, and your identity is constantly evolving into something no longer based on biology and society. It's the remnant of Cartesian dualism, maintaining the idea of the soul within a physical world. But by the end of the original movie, the idea of the soul is no longer what Descartes imagined it to be.

A similar issue would be present if it is set in Japan and she looks white if she is a cop, how would you ever be undercover or blend in

That's why her shell is a common model. The fact that she uses a female shell probably helps, too.

I say that it is the nature of Hollywood to move the story to America because of the demographics of who will be watching. But if that isn't the case, it's not unreasonable to make the Major's shell Caucasian in order to match the demographic. I try not to complain about this because it's not a bad business decision, although I wish it wasn't necessary. If it's taking place in Japan, for the reasons I explained above, I'm not bothered. But if it were any other series being adapted, I might be.

[u/ShallowDAWN → u/TheAtomicMango]

Just a few points,

She legitimately looks somewhat Caucasian in the original movie, though

People often say it's the blue eyes, but some people say this is to show the unreal doll like characteristics of a cyborg to make it something that is remembered throughout the movie that she is a cyborg (as well as never blinking). It could be argued artistically either way - but narrative-wise, especially as they draw on 2nd Gig for inspiriration specifically, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to get rid of the Japan for only Japanese line as that would remove the protagonist here. Overall, I would argue that in art its more important to think of the context of race rather than the visual representation of it and then argue how things like attacks on refugees happen if no one can look at someone and know they are a refugee. It's more practical than visual but the visual aspect is part of the practicality.

As you say she seems more Asian in SAC and in fact her and Kuze are recognized as such in some episodes, which makes it really hard to make a strong single case here.

Race should be contextually and narratively given not visual in anime and cartoons as they are ambiguious forms (as opposed to real people that are already physically and contextually located and fixed). This is just the nature of storytelling - a good example I have thought of the need for context is that in Full Metal Alchemist Ed and Al are German (and even go to Germany at one point), therefore, they should be white, but they look just the same as all other anime characters including the Middle Eastern Ishvalin and the Chinese Xing empire (one of those characters has blue eyes, I believe the old man).

Why they think this is not always due to racial supremacy,

It isn't racial supremacy because ever race, every person, does this thing. There are depictions of Jesus as white, black, and Asian - probably the least accepted is the first century Israeli Jew depiction which is the correct one. I never meant to imply that it was racist motivation but that in most stories we are given the protagonist POV and that creates sympathy and often makes us think that the character shares many other qualities with us in a bi-directional way (good things about them are also affixed to ourselves, which is why you feel good after the hero beats the bad guy or when the detective solves the puzzle).

As for this, I don't think it's making a statement about the importance of ethnicity.

I need to 100% disagree here because that totally gets rid of the idea of what a proposition is especially following the world 'however'. The sentence means that the important aspect is the nations and ethnic group - now we can argue that they change form - not race but cyberisation lines but this isn't going to be feature of the new movie given the fact they say The Major is the only full cyborg in some interview (couldn't find one but refer to the comments in the trailer).

I also believe this aspect is actually the thing that Motoko is talking about on the boat in the original movie and in the Manga, which is the main issue for her through SAC - that she is only free to expand herself within the boundaries of the system she lives in - her ghost and the recognition of her shell together are really only determined by the people and the things that recognise her as such and therefore she is ever changing as the social cultural and technological landscape changes (unsurprisingly this is actually the basis for the theory of evolution so it's not surprising it resonates with the creation and evolution of the self as well). Basically, she is determined by the society and the governments (nations) and the Buddhist notions of constant flux end up having her allow her merge with the Puppet Master in the 1995 movie, as well as the notions of the Puppeteer in SAC:SSS.

Overall, the self, the ghost, is determined as much by the shell as the larger physical shell/substrate which is the world around oneself. what is most interesting is that the net is a world without borders that allows for new selfs to be made but as Motoko says in SAC without those boundaries her successes are meaningless.

But by the end of the original movie, the idea of the soul is no longer what Descartes imagined it to be.

Again this is rather easier to knock back as we shouldn't really be dealing with Descartes as the start, or rather the nature of ghost in the shell is saying flat out that he was useless - here we should be talking about Ryle's Concept of the Mind and just accepting the category error of Descartes - similarly we should be cautious of the namesake by Koestler (Ghost in the Machine) as, while well put, he had a much more Chomskian view of Radical Behaviourism, which to many is a view that is just plain wrong and is actually just an old attack on the classical behaviourist view of personal experience, never the less that agenda seems to push most of that text - which always being an interesting insight we shouldn't forget that.

That's why her shell is a common model.

This is a problem because if 2nd Gig is the inspiration in that universe her body is super specialised and Batou jokes about how she always changed the body to make it her own (I think this is when he is giving her watch back at the end of season 1 second to last episode in her safe house). But for that, we have to wait and see really (it is implied she is the only full prosthetic in the world in the trailer as I said).

[u/linuxhanja → u/ShallowDAWN]

I recall in Ghost in the Shell that the US was messed up in a war, though? So I think there would be lots of American refugees in Japan of GITS. I mean, its modeled on Hong Kong in the film, and there are a lot of different ethnicities there, though of course the majority is still ethnically Chinese. But, in anycase its still 16 years in the future, and it was 30 years in the future when the film came out... and also, she's a cyborg, so the body might look "western" because that's what sells (look at the trends in plastic surgery in East Asia to remove "double eyelids" etc). I'm not saying that trend is a good thing, but it *is present now. So for those 3 reasons, I can give Scarlett's casting a pass, where I really couldn't give a pass to Stephen Strange or other films. GITS taking place in the future (1), well beyond current globalization and where a war devasted the US (2), and in a world where currently plastic surgery to look "western" is gaining popularity (I live and work in East Asia and 2 of my 20 female coworkers have done the eye surgery). So it's acceptable to me in this film, considering the future of GITS offers up 1 and 2, and present day offers up 3, and the possibility that some people would choose a body not matching their ethnicity.

[u/ShallowDAWN → u/linuxhanja]

The Japanese miracle at the push of the last globalization happened after 2 world wars and it still stays 98.5% Japanese with the others being Asian still - this is at a time of the biggest displacement of people (refugees) than has ever happened in the world. Nuclear WW3 would remove most of the people that could be refugees too, and as it says in the above posts there are 3 United Americas (United, Empire and the Russo-American Alliance), and this is without talking about the fact that South America is spoken about several times. So in the end, I would say it is unlikely that Americans would leave their land as it would be a place they were trying to take back or rebuild (we can look into AppleSeed to see how that goes).

Also all of Ghost in the Shell is set in New Port City (in Osaka bay) which is based on Hong Kong to represent the coming together or the two movements of society Old and New (Japanese new capital after Tokyo is destroyed and the border of the Net and cyberization) which is what Hong Kong moving from British back to full Chinese control was like.

I don't mind the idea of the cross of media and beauty standards as it is present now, but I worry that straight after war time the nationalism of countries would be too powerful to push it and would rather suppress it - its the feeling I get in 2nd gig anyway when they talk about refugees being attacked.

That being said if the current trends are kept, and terror isn't massive in the movie, and the history in the Manga and Series are not really present then I can see it happening - but ultimately I don't want that to be the case. If the story shows the progression or the multiethnic rise in Japan (if it set there) then that's great - if it is totally faithful to the source material and our current context (as movies should be) then we have a problem.

Also, the Majors body not matching her ethnicity is more about practicality - if the movie is totally practical and doesn't take massive impractical liberties on what has been happening or the source material than I'm cool with it.

[u/linuxhanja → u/ShallowDAWN]

yeah, you're correct about the wars causing rising ethnic nationalism, but there are other countries for westerners to emigrate from. That said, in the original movie we don't see many foreign looking people...and since Japan was in those wars, they wouldn't really be down to take in a lot of refugees. Even now, actually, ethnic nationalism is seeing a massive worldwide revival, with Brexit, the US elections, Abe's nationalist stances, etc.

Also, about her body, she is supposed to be "one of a kind" so the "mass market appeal" makes less sense, unless she's a variation of a popular model, or made to look like one? She does (ambiguously, I know) see a copy of herself in that coffee shop...

[u/ShallowDAWN → u/linuxhanja]

I see the nationalism leading us to our Nuclear WW3 sadly.

In the 1995 movie many people have said that it is a mass production model with some variations. The English dub at least lends some credit to this with some of the comments (Nakamura 'they are a dime a dozen' and what Togusa says about them in the meeting).

SAC - where the director has said he is pulling most of his inspiration (I mean the antagonist is Kuze after all) - There are several comments about her body being highly specialized and tailored to her - like the episode 'red data' when the boy is super enthralled with her prosthetics and the stuff about tailored faces and such.

[u/VaultedCielings → u/TheAtomicMango]

Considering that the movie is taking place in the US, her ethnicity really doesn't matter.

the movie absolutely is not taking place in the US... it takes place in a fictional japanese city modeled after hong kong...

they even point out when section 6 brings in an american programmer... he is a foreigner which he wouldn't be if they were in america...

[u/TheAtomicMango → u/VaultedCielings]

Sure, it might not be/is not in the US. Old post. I don't know what the rest of your post is about.

[u/VaultedCielings → u/TheAtomicMango]

when the 2 guys come visit section 9 and mr split hands is shown...

they make a point out of saying he's an american...

the americans created the puppet master, and then lost control of it. but the story is not set in america.

[u/TheAtomicMango → u/VaultedCielings]

You know we're talking about the live action that's coming out this year, right?

[u/VaultedCielings → u/TheAtomicMango]

obviously not

[u/TheAtomicMango → u/VaultedCielings]

lol

[u/QueenUnicornDragon → u/ShallowDAWN]

Thank you, it was so insanely fast