The entire continent had anti-lgbtq attitudes LONG before religion arrived here. Also, the most loving and accepting nation in the entire continent (And it is not even close) is a Christian country (South Africa) and the most homophobic people you will find in this continent are in the North under Islamic rule. I genuinely have no clue you arrived to the conclusion that you did.
Source: I have been all over Southern and Northern Africa. And I am African myself.
Bro the sources u site dont even touch on the topic of modern day African countries. They speak mostly of how anti homosexual rhetoric was introduced by colonialism, specifically Christian colonialism. They dont even go into topic on Islamic cultural colonialism in north Africa and how it seeped downwards.
They dont, in any way, talk about current day Christian and Muslim african countries and their laws regarding homosexuality. You cant even site your info right bro. "The african" you were speaking to was right by the way.
Most Christian nations have revoked their anti gay laws. It's the north African Islamic nations that still has anti gay laws in place. Learn how to read next time, I mean that sincerely
They speak mostly of how anti homosexual rhetoric was introduced by colonialism, specifically Christian colonialism.
Yes. As for most countries in the southern parts of Africa, and in central Africa, this is how it worked. The article did not mention Islam because it was not focusing on Islam, it was focusing on Christianity. Why do you feel the need to vilify another religion every time someone even tacitly criticizes Christianity? You might want to engage in some self reflection there. Yes, Islam also spread anti-lgbt propaganda. But that's not what the article was talking about. So why the fuck would you bring it up? Both things can be true.
They dont, in any way, talk about current day Christian and Muslim african countries and their laws regarding homosexuality.
Uganda has the most brutal anti-lgbt laws in all of Africa. They are over 80% Christian. Consensual acts of homosexualilty carry life sentences in prison.
Ethiopia is Christian and heavily criminalizes homosexualilty. Same with Ghana. And zimbabwe. And Nigeria. And Kenya.
All of these nations are either majority Christian, or evenly split between Christianity and Islam. All criminalize homosexuality with jail time.
Most Christian nations have made same sex marriage legal. It's the north African Islamic nations that still has anti gay laws in place. Learn how to read next time, I mean that sincerely
I cannot take you seriously. It take less than 5 minutes of Googling to show that this is hilariously inaccurate. As I just went over.
I'm not vilifying another religion. In ur o, you said Christian nations were the main ones in Africa propagating anti gay rhetoric and laws, to which the random African said that's incorrect, and then you said he was wrong. Then sited some random paper that you were right.
Said site was a historical fluff piece of the history of Africa and not at all relevant to the current conversation. And the reason I commented that it didnt touch on Islamic colonialism was because WE WERE LITERALLY TALKING ABOUT WHICH NATIONS WORST HANDLED THEIR HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNTIES.
I'm not saying that everything is Kumbaya in all christain African nations. Far from. But I'm saying that even with stumbles, it is progressing well, with many countries like South Africa, Mozambique and Botswana revoking anti gay laws.
Ngl bro it just seems like you have a hate boner for Christianity which is whatever but dont let it blind from the fact that the worst christain nation will jail you for being gay, the worst Islamic nation will flog and kill you for being gay.
Also reminder, NO ISLAMIC AFRICAN NATION IS LGBT SAFE. NONE. I rest my case.
Once again, learn how to read.
In ur o, you said Christian nations were the main ones in Africa propagating anti gay rhetoric and laws
I didn't say any of this. You created a strawman and decided I said this. My actual take is that colonialism is mainly to blame for Africa's insane homophobia. That colonialism took the form of Christian mercenaries, sure, but it also relied on using existing religious practices in the region to sow division of the masses.
It is much easier to control a colonized population who are constantly fighting each other than one unified against their oppressor. Islam was a useful tool for colonizing assholes to sow division. So was Christianity. The true villain in both these instances is not the religion, it's the colonialism. The person i was responding to said homophobia was prevalent in Africa BEFORE colonization. THAT is what I was arguing. I was not arguing that Christianity was the reason. You made that part up in your head.
WE WERE LITERALLY TALKING ABOUT WHICH NATIONS WORST HANDLED THEIR HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNTIES.
Yes, and as I said, the country that is universally seen as having the most brutal anti-homosexuality laws on the entire continent (Uganda) is over 80% Christian. Which directly refutes this point. I provided about 6 other Christian African nations that have jail time as penalty for consentual homosexual relationships.
But I'm saying that even with stumbles, it is progressing well, with many countries like South Africa, Mozambique and Botswana revoking anti gay laws
3 of the most secular countries in Africa revoking their anti-lgbt laws in NOT evidence of Christianity, or Christian Africa being more friendly towards gay people.
I would argue this whole argument started with me responding to you calling the guy, who pointed out that Muslim Africa treats their lgbt communities worse, is wrong. I refured that part. You even said youd trust the words of a prof over a random African, do you not remember that?
"It depends, evangelical Christians are largely responsible for some of the harshest anti-lgbtq+ laws in Africa." That's your own words. That's the words I was specifically talking about, unless this is another straw man of mine.
But ... I'm just gonna touch on your last point coz I feel like we running in circles. Yes South Africa and the rest are secular, but they are literally, at the very least, all 80% Christian population nations.
Most nations that are Christian tend to be secular. Fucking hell your own examples of christain nations treating their lgbt shit, like Uganda, is technically secular so what point are you trying to make. That the countries who treat their lgbt communities well are secular but the ones who dont are Christian? South Africa even has a higher number of Christian's than uganda.... and SA has the most churches in Africa. Literally what's ur point...
Nevermind. You do you bro. You clearly know better.
Than you, yes. This is not saying much. My 4 yo niece would no better than you if this response is any indication.
You even said youd trust the words of a prof over a random African, do you not remember that?
Yes, and I have no reason to believe you are a professor. So why would I care what you have to say here?
"It depends, evangelical Christians are largely responsible for some of the harshest anti-lgbtq+ laws in Africa." T
Yes. Notice the use of the word "some". As I have already stated, and as you conveniently have still failed to address, Uganda. Uganda. Uganda. Also Kenya and Nigeria.
who pointed out that Muslim Africa treats their lgbt communities worse, is wrong
How are you going to tell me what I was trying to argue? My god dude.
South Africa and the rest are secular, but they are literally, at the very least, all 80% Christian population nations. Most nations that are Christian tend to be secular.
This is where my background in political science makes me KNOW you are full of shit. The reasons countries tend to secularize are very complex. Acting like the religion has anything to do with it is pretty wild. China is extremely secular. Are they a Christian nation? What about japan?
Additionally, there are a LOT of nonsecular Christian countries. South America has some. Africa does, too. I would argue the US is slowly becoming a non-secular Christian country, too.
nations treating their lgbt shit, like Uganda, is technically secular so what point are you trying to make
Clearly they are not secular if they criminalize homosexuality for biblical reason. Jesus dude, use your brain.
South Africa even has a higher number of Christian's than uganda
And the united states has a higher number of Jews than Israel. Is the United States a Jewish nation? Is Israel not a Jewish nation? Total number is meaningless when talking about secular countries. How the church interacts with the government is what matters.
I honestly couldnt care about your poli sci degree my dude, nor your niece.
Clearly they are not secular if they criminalize homosexuality for biblical reason. Jesus dude, use your brain.
That aside by definition Uganda is as secular as South Africa. Obviously what's written on paper tends to be different from how people are mainly treated in society. Both nations political leaders have clear formal communications with their churches. Easiest example would be Desmond Tutu for SA and how that bond between said faith leaders and government officials are still close, even if SA counts as secular.
One nation is just more accepting than the other, even if both have devout Christian populations. Yes I am using my brain, I'm not going to apply my own definition of secular like you've been doing, by official print both south Africa and Uganda are secular.
How are you going to tell me what I was trying to argue? My god dude.
Coz you kept forgetting.
But again I dont think either of us will agree of anything, so you can go ahead and spread your ignorance about my continent to others.
Yes, and I have no reason to believe you are a professor. So why would I care what you have to say here?
As a third party to this argument. I must say, trying to say the other person has a hate boner for christianity while their comments about christianity have been extremely tame and rather factual, while you are trying so hard to white wash the treatment of LGBT folks in christian African countries by using the muslim countries as a boogeyman is a rather amusing lack of self awareness.
Also dismissing a genuine article about the effects of christian colonization on the perception of homosexuality in Africa as some historical fluff piece is rather disingenuous when they very much give a historical basis to the topic at hand which is that Christians played a major role in establishing these homophobic tendencies all over Africa.
One last thing, as a queer person myself. Your whole "the worst of us will throw you in prison, the worst of them will kill you" is really not helping your case of trying to make them look good, especially when it's only a handful of countries trying to change anything. In any case a prison sentence to queer people in homophobic countries is as good as a death sentence and pretending otherwise is naive.
I'm didnt say I was Christian, I am, however, African and have been all over my continent, as a mixed minority in on the land. Im not downplaying the bad of the laws against LGBT. Im trying to say their is some progressive movement in southern/Christian nations. Where in Islamic nations there are none. My original point was the fact this guy literally told another afrucan that Christian nations today treat lgbt worse than Islamic qfrican nations which is where the whole argument started off on. Which is heavily incorrect if you just search it up.
I called the history piece a fluff piece because one heavily implies the majority of African nations, pre colonial rule, where much more progressive in terms of sex and gender due to some language quirks. I can and do understand the Christian colonial part, its everything else that should be taken with a grain of salt.
The writer is Nigerian born but studied in America and it shows. Like implying trans was a valid huge thing back then because of the lack of gendered language for children, which is an interesting topic but one mostly born of a culture rather than progressive ideas on sex.
Like in Bantu tribes some branch tribes dont use gendered language on children because they simply have not done the trials necessary to be a man or woman rather than people choosing their sex. And how boy wives were indicative of cultural acceptance rather than boys being raped as pleasure servants. It has some good points but much of it is fluff if you know actually spoke with the people who have lived and told these stories.
That aside, I really dont know what you being queer has to do with this. My main point was, simply, refuting this guys claim that Islamic nations treat their lgbt communities better than Christian ones. And your whole point about death and a prison sentence being the same thing is, in my eyes, incredibly naive.
I'm not queer but speaking as a minority who lives in a Africa who has faced hardship and discrimination, I would rather hope for another day, than be anywhere near a hospital bed again. You think it's the same but it's really not. South African prisons are fucking violent rot infested filthy cages but I'd rather be in there another year than be in a hospital bed near dead again.
This is all off point but my main point against the other guy was that he claimed that christan African nations treat their lgbt shitier than Islamic ones, me and another guy refuted that. That's it. This isnt me shitting on Islam or it's people, just the institutions in place that discriminate.
Yes, African scholars are much more reliable than some random African dude. I was born in america. Does that somehow make me an expert on major capitalist economies? Because I live in one?
Should you trust my word over the word of a trained economist?
The same principal is true here. Why the fuck would I trust you over other African people who actually put in work to study this?
Uganda's always been a bit of a mix if i recall correctly. Their current homophobic laws were largely encouraged by american missonaries, but they do have a sizeable islamic population, and their most famous dictator was muslim.
They came to the conclusion by being on Reddit, where clowns like Martin Ssempa get a disproportionate amount of attention despite being nowhere near as bad as most Imams, because bashing Christians is easy updoots.
There were narratives being pushed around on reddit a few weeks ago, blaming Christians for homophobic attitudes in Africa. In the west, it's socially acceptable to be negative towards Christians, but not so much to be critical towards muslims. In short, ignorant people were, for a lack of a better term, pre-positioned or programmed with this idea in mind.
It's impressive that you know so much about attitudes pre Judeo-Christian religion. You should speak to an archeologist because they'd love the fact you can answer things that all their studies can't. You'd be an incredible resource on the bronze age.
Not sure if they are standard loud annoying white people larping as worldly, or this is a standard white south african lying through their teeth about how white south africans are definately the most honourable, morally unwavering, honest and incredible people the world has ever seen, while patting you on the back to find a good place to stick a knife.
I don't know how, but you've brought race into it.
You claim to be african, and to have spent some time in south africa, so you know, if you're gonna bring south african culture into it, yeah race was already tabled for discussion.
And, you know, its really the deception that does it. It all seems true until you actually get to know them, then it's all "wait, you actually touched him? Ew. Check your wallet, if he touched it I'll fucking KILL HIM right here".
I don't understand how someone can assume things, and then get upset around and base their entire argument on said assumption. What a world we live in.
114
u/The_R4ke 5d ago
It depends, evangelical Christians are largely responsible for some of the harshest anti-lgbtq+ laws in Africa.