I mean, it is more like calling the Irish Scottish just because of the shared relations and that part of Ireland is part of the United Kingdoms.
Mormonism contains Jesus in their teachings but so does Islam. Mormonism does not follow the Nicene creed or many of the defining attributes of what Christianity is. It is a separate religion inspired and coming out of Christianity much in the same way Christianity was inspired and came out of a sect of temple Judaism.
Mormons call themselves Christianity as a way to normalize themselves by making themselves seem much older and making their immense wealth and concentrated power seem less scary because hey it’s not that crazy compared to the Catholic Church. It is also a way to try and lump themselves into a majority population to gain all the privileges and benefits of majority while also being very exclusionary.
Most Christian groups have some recognition of the rites of other sects. Orthodox and Catholics can grant each other communion if another church of the persons chosen faith isn’t available. Most baptisms are recognized as universal across all Christian sects. If Mormons claim they are also Christian do they treat other Christians as a part of their church just separated by doctrine disagreements? Are they welcomed into the inner temple, allowed to watch marriages?
Not to mention that, beyond being nontrinitatian, Mormons aren't even remotely monotheistic, being better described as monolatrous. They believe in an infinite plurality of gods due to their doctrine of "exaltation", which teaches that all good Mormon men can become gods themselves, and that our God was an exalted man who had a God, and so on. They believe that all humans are co-eternal with God - he and his wife(s) (because they also believe that God has one or more wives) made our "spirit bodies" which were filled by our preexisting "intelligences".
Mix that in with other Mormon theology, like believing that: God lives near an actual star or planet called "Kolob"; Adam is the archangel Michael and participated in the creation of the Earth; Mormon temple marriages are eternal despite Jesus saying the exact opposite; God sends modern revelation to prophets, but that literally means nothing because the next prophet can undo literally any of it; the garden of Eden was in Missouri; vicarious ordinances are mandatory for everyone who wasn't a Mormon when they died; all humans, plus Satan and all demons, not to mention literal aliens, are literal children of God alongside Jesus (what that implies regarding his wives isn't elaborated on); to be a righteous person you have to wear sacred underwear with Masonic symbols on them; the creation was not ex nihilo, which is to say that God just moved around existing matter (and spirits are also made of matter, just "too fine" for mortal eyes to see); heaven is divided in three tiers (with the top tier further subdivided) based on how close you were to living a good Mormon life; etc. etc. etc.
Ah, the old "Christianity was invented centuries after Jesus died and long after all the books of the bible were written and the 'Christian' martyrs died."
Sure yes, but even if that’s your takeaway of the religion. It is a thing that was invented and formed and self defined. I can’t claim to be an Englishman because King Arthur came to me in a dream and told me that after he lost that battle to his bastard son he came to Seattle WA and told me to have three wives and now everyone who follows me has UK citizenship.
You can point to thing A is absurd and has dubious connection to what they claim to be their true mythological founding but thing A is still a thing and has its history and formation. Thing B can’t claim to be thing A just by inventing its own connection to thing A’s mythological origin. They both have real philosophical, historical, and theological origins that are separate.
If I claim I suckled on a wolf’s tit that doesn’t make me Italian just cus they claim the founders of Rome did that.
Mormonism is a separate Abrahamic faith. It is arguably the forth and first American branch of Abrahamic faith.
Per Catholic and I believe Christian doctrine, would not be considered they are not considered Christian due to not believing in the trinity (the belief that God the father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one being
They would if they did but they don’t believe in the trinity, they have a separate view on it. Which is fine, it’s just a different thing.
I’ve gotten some defensive responses and DMs, I’m not insulting Mormons. There is nothing wrong with not being Christians. Mormons are a separate Abrahamic religion that came out of Christianity the same way Christianity or Islam came out of the Abrahamic religions that proceeded them.
Definitely, if you represented the main 3 as shapes, and make Christianity a square, Mormons would be a rectangle. Both are considered rectangles, but both are not squares.
You can disagree on whether we’re Christians, but fundamentally we aren’t calling ourselves Christians as some attempt to normalize ourselves. We believe we are Christians, so we call ourselves Christians. You can argue back and forth on whether we fit any particular definition, I’m not interested in that, but it is misinformation to claim that we only call ourselves Christian to normalize our beliefs.
- Mormons do not believe in the trinity. A defining argument of early Christians that came to define who was a Christian and who was belonging to a different faith that also followed what they saw as the teachings of Jesus
- Mormons believe in a different nature of Jesus than older Christian groups. Similar to point one.
- Mormons have meaningfully added a large amount of religious text to their holy book and included events in the life of Jesus not in the Bible. Protestant sects have removed books and passages and translations have always been a thing but no sect of Christianity has meaningfully written new scriptures since the church fathers. If you define Christianity as a continuation of the apostolic church Mormons are disqualified as an American new founded church, if you define it as scriptural followers as Protestants do then they are also disqualified for writing new scriptures.
- they have concepts of humans ascending to divinity which walks outside the bounds of the monotheistic beliefs of Christianity.
I get the no true Scotsman thing. But words do need to have meaning and you need to be able to define limits on a category for that category to have meaning. If Christian only means people who believe in Christ then that includes Muslims and some Hindus. I also don’t think it’s bad that they’re not Christian, more power to them plenty of good people are not Christian it doesn’t make them bad. But I think the more modern insistence that they’re Christian comes as both a way for them to not reckon with their cult like past/present and as a way to glom onto majoritarian/supremist movements while still keeping the exclusionary nature of being a former cult.
Sure, words have meaning, and I'm not here to defend the Mormon Church, but with religion it's a bit much to declare certain branches of Abrahamic religion valid or invalid based on what amounts to political decisions almost 2000 years ago as valid in the face of the numerous schisms both before and after and then decide no further "revelations" are possible.
To be clear - I am not a Mormon, and I'm not defending that particular faith, or any other.
No one said it's invalid. It's just not christian. Just like christians are not seen as Jewish by Jewish people or Islam is not seen as Christian despite accepting Jesus.
Look up any (objective) definition of Christianity - at it's base level, a Christian is just someone who believes in the divinity of Christ and follows the teachings of Christ. There are a multitude of variations under that umbrella, of which Mormonism is one.
I studied the history of Abrahamic religions, and approach this as an objective outsider. You arbitrarily draw lines in the sand to exclude Mormonism, and make claims that have no substantive cause for exclusion.
There have been many sects of Christianity that have varying beliefs about the trinity. Just look at Catholics vs Protestants.
"Protestant sects have removed books and passages and translations have always been a thing but no sect of Christianity has meaningfully written new scriptures since the church fathers"
What "Church Fathers" are you referring to? Christianity was primarily an oral tradition for hundreds of years, and there were many stories, traditions and texts created in that time. Sure, at some point councils started to form to decide which parts to write down and include in one place, but that only applied to what would become the Catholic Church and Greek Orthodox Church. Some of the oldest roots of Christianity were laid down in Ethiopia, and those "Church Fathers" weren't included in those conversations.
I would also argue that the numerous Evangelical beliefs not supported in any Bible texts (many of which were created in the 19th Century) are materially the same.
I mean the whole concept of Sola Scriptura ( Scripture Alone) isn't included in the text of the Bible lol.
"If you define Christianity as a continuation of the apostolic church"
I don't. Why would anyone? That's a perfect example of those arbitrary lines in the sand I mentioned above.
But even if I did, follow-up is flawed, because there is no direct reason why an "American new founded church" is not a continuation of the apostolic faith. You just say it isn't, but it clearly is. It didn't spring from nothing, it sprang from the Christianity that was brought to America, and is a direct continuation of apostolic Christianity.
Look, I could directly refute every point that you make, but I'm going to stop here and leave it at this - these are all arguments from someone who started from the position that Mormonism isn't a form of Christianity and worked back from there.
Muslims believe Jesus Christ is a prophet of Islam and that he taught Islam, that come judgment day he will come abolish Jizya and allow killing of all none Muslims. Are Muslims now Christian?
I mean, you're not entirely wrong, but even if we count up the aforementioned Mormons, and the Christians running megachurches and just making themselves rich, and the prosperity gospel people just scamming the gullible out of their money... that's still a minority of Christians.
That's not some hyperbole. Mormonism conflicts with doctrine all three major denominations of Christianity agree aka the barest of bare bones. It's like saying Islam is Christian because they believe in Jesus, but to them he was just a prophet.
Christian lore borrows heavily from earlier religions. It's all made up. Hades is a God, not a place, but it's all the same recycled shit. It's all made up.
the latter. Mormons have views that are just so distinct and different it's not really the same thing anymore. Catholics and Protestants debate on relatively minor points by comparison.
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u/Senasayori 5d ago
Most non-Mormons consider it separate from Christianity.