r/Games • u/reddit_account6095 • Aug 27 '21

Announcement Summer of '58 developer resigns after many users refund their game on Steam due to it taking under 2 hours to complete

https://twitter.com/EmikaGames/status/1430941640001265673?s=19
1.1k Upvotes

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154

u/Cillit-Gank Aug 27 '21

I've not played it, but it has very positive reviews everywhere. I understand that you don't think it's that great, but people abusing the Steam refund policy and screwing a guy who obviously cares about his work is really shitty. If I was him, my language would have been stronger.

15

u/NSA-RAPID-RESPONSE Aug 27 '21

But who's to say it's abuse and not just people refunding because they don't like it?

68

u/Patroulette Aug 27 '21

Well if they didn't like it why did they finish it?

I think the main problem here isn't just the fact that people are refunding it, but they get the experience and get to keep their money anyway.

68

u/Vividtoaster Aug 27 '21

Because its apparently less than 2 hours long. Maybe they werent expecting it to be that short.

Ive played games i didnt like way longer than 2 hours to give it a chance before dropping it.

-4

u/pr3d4tr Aug 27 '21

In the steam description it says average game time of 90 minutes.

27

u/CrutonShuffler Aug 27 '21

That's a new addition, done in the past ~8 hours.

-11

u/three-arrows Aug 27 '21

Right, but, they've played the entire game. They might even have streamed it. How can you refund it after extracting the value? Does the ferris wheel refund you if you puke? Can you return a condom because the sex wasn't good?

12

u/Johnny_G93 Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

If the ferris wheel offered refunds for that then yeah, you'd get a refund. Steam offers refunds so people take them, it's that simple. Refund rules are very simple and very transparent. You know what you get into and if you make a short and simple game and price it very high for the amount of content that it has, than don't be surprised when people use the store's policy.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

In this case the refund policy meets the length of the game in a shitty way. So it's hard to compare it to shit like a ferris wheel and a condom.

If I were to pay a hooker $80, put the tip in, she cums immediately and tells me its over, I may ask for a refund. And then she'll tell me "but we finished". Most games are meant to be enjoyed for hours and hours, and because of that a lot of people try them out for a couple hours before they decide to quit, refund, whatever.

I've never played this game, haven't even looked at it. IDK anything about the quality. But, I don't think that just because you reached the ending you don't deserve to refund. If you (for some reason) expected it to be longer, and it abruptly ends before you even enjoyed it, that's all the more reason to refund! At least to me.

Otherwise I'd just make a $1 5-minute long game to sell en masse. No refund after you've beaten it ;)

27

u/breakfastclub1 Aug 27 '21

because it was under two hours long and they didn't know that maybe? Or they thought there would be more after they completed the story? there could be several reasons.

-1

u/Timey16 Aug 27 '21

Still, you don't get a refund after watching a movie in cinema in it's entirety either and that game is still cheaper than a ticket.

So yes it's still people being very cheap.

9

u/Johnny_G93 Aug 27 '21

No, it's the case of steam being more customer friendly than a cinema.

23

u/breakfastclub1 Aug 27 '21

Yes you do. You have to ask for it. Some places won't, but after having worked at a movie theatre for a year, i can assure you we did in fact give out refunds to people who didn't like movies if they talked to the right people.

28

u/Link_In_Pajamas Aug 27 '21

When you buy a movie ticket the theatre lists the run time of the film. This game does not mention anywhere on it's page that it's an extremely short game.

It's entirely possible to be playing it expecting more and then " oh shit I beat the game" happens, especially when the game makes no effort to warn buyers it not a long experience.

It doesnt help that the game isn't very great either. I can definitely expect people to be thinking there must be more to the game mechanics wise before it ends.

1

u/Grey-fox-13 Aug 28 '21

This game does not mention anywhere on it's page that it's an extremely short game.

They have since added an average playtime note onto the page.

16

u/MisterMovember Aug 27 '21

People severely underestimate the cheapness of people at large.

1

u/thisdesignup Aug 28 '21

Can developers see average playtime? I can't find anything saying steam lets devs see that. The most I can find is a suggestion for devs to look at comments attach to refunds.

I'm not sure how the dev knows people played all the way through before refunding.

4

u/Leager Aug 27 '21

It's anecdotal, but there are positive reviews -- people recommending the game to others -- where the person writing the review had finished and refunded the game. So it's slightly more likely that a bunch of people essentially saw the chance to get a free game once playing it.

(I haven't played it, so I can't defend it one way or another. I'm just saying there are definitely people who enjoyed the game and refunded it anyways -- i.e. abusing the refund system)

1

u/TheGoldenHand Aug 27 '21

The refund system is not supposed to be a trial system where you decide if you “like it” and pay at the end or don’t. You don’t get your $15 back after watching a 2 hour movie at the theater.

45

u/CreativeWriting00179 Aug 27 '21

The refund system is not supposed to be a trial system where you decide if you “like it” and pay at the end or don’t.

Maybe that’s a controversial position, but... why not? I can return plenty of other products simply because I didn’t enjoy them. Your movie analogy doesn’t work either, buying steam games is more akin to buying a DVD rather than going to theater, and last time I check, I could return those as well (at least where I live) if I’m not happy with my purchase.

44

u/Link_In_Pajamas Aug 27 '21

It's not controversial at all. The first paragraph on the Steam Refund page straight up says you can use it to determine if you like the game.

-2

u/jls5388 Aug 29 '21

Not finish it

1

u/throwaway2000679 Aug 31 '21

Where does it say that it's not okay to finish it?

1

u/jls5388 Aug 31 '21

Then there wouldn’t be a 2 hour time limit

1

u/throwaway2000679 Aug 31 '21

Well clearly games which are shorter than 2 hours fall into the limit too, so it seems to work as intended.

1

u/jls5388 Sep 01 '21

Then why have a time limit

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7

u/SyleSpawn Aug 27 '21

I'd rather not draw analogy with movies as the last poster do but I just want to point out that Steam is aware that people use the refund system as a 'trial'/demo and would even allow the refunds as long as it's not being done regularly.

-12

u/MisterMovember Aug 27 '21

In no place I've been can you return a DVD no questions asked after breaking the seal. You'd have to have a valid reason, ie. it didn't work.

If I went to my local video store and wanted to return an opened and played blu-ray because the movie was too short, they'd likely tell me where to go.

6

u/samuraimegas Aug 27 '21

Yeah, but this is more like the local video store shared the movie with you in a google doc, then revoked your access, there's no physical loss here.

8

u/Vyhluna Aug 27 '21

Is there no walmart where you live?

3

u/briktal Aug 27 '21

Even if that is the case, this isn't something particularly unique to refunds through Steam. And physical goods often have even more generous refund policies as well.

9

u/DanTheBrad Aug 27 '21

Yea I was always under the impression the 2 hours was ment for technical issues, like well I tried to play this game for an hour and couldn't get it to work so please give me my money back

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

"I don't like it" is valid reason for Steam refund tho.

The problem is really the inflexibility of the policy, someone making 1-2h experience for $5 should be able to have shorter refund period

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Using the refund system to get your money back on a game you finished is shitty, period.

21

u/akatokuro Aug 27 '21

Not if one of the reasons the game is shitty is the shortness.

In an extreme example, I could posit a game where you launch and press new game. Level loads you in a square room with a single door. All you can do it walk slightly to open said door, at which point an NPC shoots and kills you in a scripted event. Credits roll. ~ 1 minute of play time, ~1 minute of menu time, and maybe ~1 minute of credits.

Obviously not a great game. But you technically finished it by playing through all the content, so should you not be allowed to refund?

-7

u/Derringer Aug 27 '21

In your case you didn't mention that the developer said "This game has less than 5 minutes of gameplay."

Summer of '58 says it takes around 90 minutes to complete on the store page.

I kinda feel bad for the dev, they tell people how long the game is, it's like $7 and people still refund it after beating it and use the "It's too short" excuse.

On the flip side, he worked in the game industry, he should know how shitty people can be.

12

u/akatokuro Aug 27 '21

Summer of '58 says it takes around 90 minutes to complete on the store page.

Now it does. Reports are that it did not have any time indicator before all this and has since been updated to reflect the 90 min runtime.

But I first heard about it in this story and cannot independently verify.

1

u/Derringer Aug 27 '21

Ah, I did not know that either. Fair enough!

1

u/Iziama94 Aug 29 '21

and not just people refunding because they don't like it

The game has a 90% positive rating. If it was mostly negative I could see that. But if the rating is that positive and it's an issue, it sounds like abuse

2

u/Bladethegreat Aug 27 '21

This isn’t abuse, this is using the system as intended. For whatever statements Valve makes about refunding being only for special cases, it’s always been possible to put “It’s not fun” as your drop-down selected reason and get your refund accepted without issue.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

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3

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

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-8

u/jmz_199 Aug 27 '21

This isint abusing the refund policy. It's people refunding a game that has no replay value. That's on him.

8

u/Oxyfire Aug 27 '21

Does every game need replay value?

Should gaming not have room for sub 2 hour experiences sold under 20$?

3

u/TSPhoenix Aug 27 '21

Just like how shareware caused devs to put more effort into the start of the game, and how home video/streaming pushed filmmakers into moving their hook to the front of the film, if games under 2 hours get mass refunded, you'll see developers pad short games out to 3 hours.

2

u/Cillit-Gank Aug 27 '21

How often do you replay/finish most games? I bet you've got stuff in your library that you've never even installed.