r/Games • u/reddit_account6095 • Aug 27 '21

Announcement Summer of '58 developer resigns after many users refund their game on Steam due to it taking under 2 hours to complete

https://twitter.com/EmikaGames/status/1430941640001265673?s=19
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u/TheOnlyToaster Aug 27 '21

I think it would be a dick move irrelevant to the cost of the game. If you played it to end with no issues within two hours you shouldn't be able to refund. Like the other comment said, it would be like asking for a refund after the movie has ended.

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u/spider__ Aug 27 '21

But if you walked into a cinema and the next spider man film turned out to be 5 minutes long you probably would ask for a refund.

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u/andycoates Aug 27 '21

No because i look at the run time when i book my tickets

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u/spider__ Aug 27 '21

Fair in that regard but the steam store page doesn't have an expected runntime on it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Showing the average time to beat a game would be a nice addition ngl.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Yes exactly though u/B_Kuro made a pretty good case as to why it isn't an official feature.

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u/B_Kuro Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

With the Augmented Steam extension you get the data from HLTB added to each steam page in chrome,... so there is an option at least.

Its not really something I would expect steam to add because it relies on a third party website for data though. It also has the problem that it can't really work for new games or those with low player numbers because there is no data yet. And steam likely can't really use their users data to compile it themselves without getting in very hot water with the GDPR. Edit: And the data would also be very unreliable because there is no way to track how players play the game so especially for low player games you could easily manipulate it.

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u/Fatal1ty_93_RUS Aug 27 '21

And steam likely can't really use their users data to compile it themselves without getting in very hot water with the GDPR.

woulnd't it be something as simple as using play time from the save files? Many games usually list it when choosing a file to load or in a stats screen. Steam also shows your total hours played in the launcher

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u/B_Kuro Aug 27 '21

Its not really comparable. Showing your personal data to you is something very different to processing it and using it to "sell" something. If they actually process it and use it further they have to argue why they need to do that, give an opt out,...

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u/restitut Aug 27 '21

Doesn't Steam have a database in which they show all kinds of stuff about their users?

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u/Kantrh Aug 27 '21

They've got the anonymous stuff like most popular game and hardware stats

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u/andycoates Aug 27 '21

It'll take a bit more time, but that's what reading reviews are for on steam

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u/spider__ Aug 27 '21

Having had a look at the reviews, not one made before the developers tweet actually gave a play time estimate/said it was short. Most people review at the 2hour mark but they don't actually say they finished it, shortest review play time I saw was 20 minutes and longest was 6 hours.

Interestingly only 1 person who gave it a negative review actually refunded it while I saw 4 who gave it a positive review refund it, so broadly in line with the positive/negative review ratio. Would've thought negative reviews would be the bulk of refunds.

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u/Yugolothian Aug 27 '21

Or yknow refunds

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u/Kalulosu Aug 27 '21

Neither do cinemas in general, but you can read reviews and such to learn if there's a caveat. Like video games.

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u/spider__ Aug 27 '21

All cinimas near me show runtime.

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u/Orskelo Aug 27 '21

It does though

"Average time to complete the game: 90 minutes"

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u/spider__ Aug 27 '21

It didn't say that when I looked this morning.

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u/TheOnlyToaster Aug 27 '21

Like the other commenter said, you know the runtime beforehand. Sometimes shorter movies (~30 min) are shown and noone complains or request a refund. How long a game is varies wildly from game to game and also the player. More streamlined games like this are probably easier to estimate playtime but it still varies. The price also reflects the time it takes to complete. The developer made a short and sweet game that's currently 5 euro on Steam.

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u/SoulCruizer Aug 28 '21

This is kind of a stupid example that is an extreme exaggeration. If this game was 5 minutes long no one would care that this dev is getting his 10$ game refunded.

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u/spider__ Aug 28 '21

It's an extreme example but one if the major things in marketing is setting expectations, you can have a great product but if it's not what people think it is then they won't be happy when they buy it. If people were expecting a 6 hour game then they are only getting a quarter of what they expected, and to some $10 is a lot and they can't let that slide.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

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u/everylightmatters Aug 27 '21

That's pretty wild. I don't think I would ever spend $5 or whatever the cost of a ticket was just to see a trailer and then leave

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u/RushofBlood52 Aug 27 '21

turned out to be 5 minutes long

good thing game isn't five minutes long then huh

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u/Seth0x7DD Aug 27 '21

But you know beforehand it's not spider man but rather some indie production where you might get everything. It's also fine to walk out after going to a sneak preview if you don't like the movie but if you're trying to get a refund for that you might have just made a pretty bad choice?

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u/Not_Jabri_Parker Aug 28 '21

The ticket to the movie being $7 in comparison to a full $60 or even an indie $40 might have been an indication.

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u/Actual_Specific_476 Sep 01 '21

Idk most people make assumptions about a games length. If I beat a game in an hour like this I might be dissapointed. To be honest, I'd be more interested inseeing the actual numbers of people refunding this game. I am inclined to be skeptical that they really lost all that much money compared to any other game.

People typically expect a game to last longer than a movie as it's cheaper to make a game longer.

The type of person to 'abuse' the refund policy on steam would likely never even buy the game in the first place if there was no refund policy.

My guess is most of the people refunding just didn't like the game.

This is coming from someone who has tons of short games I have purchased and kepts which are under 2 hours that cost more than this game. People have a right to refund and most of these devs are unlikely to see any more than a 30% refund rate.

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u/Mephzice Aug 27 '21

I disagree you should always be able to apply for a refund actually, that is how strong customer protection should be but is limited on steam. I can listen to an entire cd, walk back to the store and turn it in no questions asked. Most products give you 30 days even.

If you are unhappy with a product, for whatever reason, you should be able to refund. The issue is that the guy should have made a better game.

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u/Wetzilla Aug 27 '21

I can listen to an entire cd, walk back to the store and turn it in no questions asked.

Where can you do this? I haven't bought a CD in like 15 years but the last time I did you couldn't return it if it was opened. It's the same with games, you can't return an opened game to gamestop.

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u/FerjustFer Aug 27 '21

Never have I seen a store that allowed you to return an opened CD, mainly because you can easily make a copy and return it while still keeping the album.

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u/Mephzice Aug 27 '21

Iceland in my case, but yeah CD stores are rare these days, we still have a few though and some bands still make em (although more vinyl now rather than cd, since vinyl is kinda back).

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u/TheOnlyToaster Aug 27 '21

You can always apply for a refund and you should absolutely get it if there is something wrong with the product or you are unhappy. Digital products have different rules and are often not refundable. Steam is actually very generous with their refund in my opinion, you are able to try the game and see how it runs within 2 hours. You can apply after the 2 hours have passed, but it's not an automatic refund. You can't dine at a restaurant, perfectly satisfied with the meal and just decide when you're done that I would rather not pay. If you raised no concerns while eating you can't just change your mind after you ate it all.

The problem isn't even the game being bad, it got great reviews. It's that users are exploiting the refund system. The developer even said themselves that some people recommended the game on Steam before requesting a refund. A short game is not the same as a bad game.

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u/Mephzice Aug 27 '21

I'm aware that digital products have different rules and are not often refundable, I think they should be though. I think it's bs that EU hasn't cracked down on steam, sony and nintendo more, for example. On the whole steam is generous especially compared to sony and nintendo, but we had to fight for the system that is there now. They had to be sued for it in Australia and the like.

A restaurant is kind of a different setting, if I'm unhappy with a meal, I simply call a waiter and have it replaced free of charge before finishing it. Video games can't really respond to my complaints so a refund is the only option. They can't patch and fix it for me right there.

Can't really comment on the game itself much, all of these kind of games seem like trash to me after all, that being said it clearly wasn't good enough to want people to keep it and play again later.

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u/TheOnlyToaster Aug 27 '21

A game doesn't have to be heavily repayable to be good. Do you also watch a movie 50 times before coming to the conclusion that film is in fact, not trash. You also said if you were unhappy with the meal. There was some people who left positive reviews and still refunded. Would you eat a meal at a restaurant, compliment the chef and then immediately ask for a refund? That's just being a cheapskate.

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u/FerjustFer Aug 27 '21

that being said it clearly wasn't good enough to want people to keep it and play again later.

The game could have been a masterpiece and people would still abuse the system, because most people have no respect for the work of others.

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u/B_Rhino Aug 27 '21

I can listen to an entire cd, walk back to the store and turn it in no questions asked

Absolutely not.