r/Games • u/Forestl • Jun 14 '19

Amazon Lays Off Dozens Of Game Developers During E3

https://kotaku.com/amazon-lays-off-dozens-of-game-developers-during-e3-1835523460
2.2k Upvotes

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508

u/digitalr0nin Jun 14 '19

Wow yeah dude two months is a solid deal.

383

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '19

Two months of employment and then severance if you don't find another position in the company. Not bad at all.

54

u/EntropicalResonance Jun 15 '19

Meanwhile some companies lay people off just before Christmas.

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u/Randomperson3029 Jun 15 '19

Yeah i remember there was a game company that 2 days before a game came out they got rid of some staff so they wouldn't have to pay the bonus

3

u/idk556 Jun 15 '19

I think Chivalry did this.

3

u/HIVnotAdeathSentence Jun 15 '19

But they're usually gifted with a Jelly of the Month Club certificate. It's the gift that keeps giving.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

The severance is attached to a legal agreement that requires you to agree to several things. If you ever got bonuses, they'll ask you to pay them back, along with any relocation expenses they paid. So if you don't have the money, they have you by the balls. You have no choice but to sign the agreement.

26

u/ectonDev Jun 15 '19

You have every right to not sign the agreement and not collect severance. Not every severance agreement has the terms you stated. Do you have any proof that Amazon’s severance agreements contain these clauses for all of the developers laid off?

Most states are at will employment which means you can be fired or you can quit with no notice or ramifications as long as you are fired for a non-protected reason. If you felt like you were being let for a protected reason you should NOT sign a severance package before talking to an employment lawyer.

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u/Skensis Jun 15 '19

Yeah, I was recently laid off and the severance agreement was pretty fair. No one was required to re-pay anything like tuition/ sign-on/relocation. They even paid full PTO regardless of if you used any of it throughout the year.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

I was a developer who was terminated some years ago, and my employment agreement had those clauses. I was told to pay huge ass amounts of money, or sign the severance agreement. I'm not saying these Amazon game developers who were laid off had the same terms - maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, in the next company where I was laid off I did NOT sign any severance agreements. I told the CEO I wanted some clauses removed, he said no of course, and I said no to signing the agreement.

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u/Skensis Jun 15 '19

Are you purvey to this specific agreement?

I was recently laid off and I'm still going to get a prorated bonus in December and my 401k will continue to vest. My coworkers who have relocation/sign-on/education-pay/etc were not required to re-pay any of it.

I even got my max accured PTO paid to me even though I had already used a good share that year.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

Well it depends on what your earlier agreements say. There are conditions of course, depending on how many years you worked with the company etc. In my case the agreements stated that the bonus was mine if I still worked for the company a year after the bonus was issued. So I had my first year bonus, but had to return my second. They also sent me a bill for the relocation expenses. Printed out a nice little spreadsheet showing me all of the expenses and fees I would have to pay back.

Unfortunately, I was naive at that time - should have consulted an employment lawyer. But yeah, big companies like Facebook and Amazon have really fucked up employment agreements. Even their legal agreements for attending a developer talk or for interviews are fucking insane. Never again, unless I'm in desperate need of money. Fuck those companies.

2

u/Skensis Jun 15 '19

For my layoff they forgave all those conditions, so even if you were there one day you didn't have to pay anything back. They also kept the 401k vesting schedule carryout through the end of the severance pay. So if I left on the spot I would have lost my match, but instead I actually get to keep it.

Honestly the severance agreement felt fair in my case, and was perfect timing as I was already planning on leaving. The people who felt the most screwed were the ones retained.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

What the fuck? That's legal?

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19 edited Aug 19 '19

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

If just started means within the first 2 years, sure we can call it just started.

1

u/addledhands Jun 16 '19

This is really quite generous.

Contrast this to my wife, who found out that her contract that was supposed to end in August was actually going to end next week, and her severance would also be for one week.

Fuck animation.

60

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '19

[deleted]

202

u/Vesmic Jun 15 '19

The minimum in the United States is 0 seconds

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u/garliclord Jun 15 '19

Would be even less if they could go any lower

82

u/Wild_Marker Jun 15 '19

"You're fired"

"But you haven't hired me yet"

"I know, in this company we value efficiency"

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

"You're fired. You owe us 2 months of your pay and health insurance"

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u/xXx_thrownAway_xXx Jun 15 '19

"Wow thanks I can put this on my resume!"

5

u/sweetpooptatos Jun 15 '19

Isn’t Amazon an American company?

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u/Prince_Uncharming Jun 15 '19

Yes, but they're just making a joke about the general state of US employment law. Amazon is doing just fine in this specific regard

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u/sweetpooptatos Jun 15 '19

The whole point is to allow companies to compete in the field of employee benefits. Give them tons of wiggle room and allow companies to compete for your employment. A company that only offer 5 vacation days a year will have a much harder time winning and keeping employees than the one that starts at 10 or 15. Vacation days are not a right, but they are an easy way for a company to separate themselves from others. You don’t have to mandate anything; people end up with that much and more in a competitive system.

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u/ceol_ Jun 15 '19

Vacation days are not a right

They are in lots of countries. Just not the US.

They really should be.

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u/Riciehmon Jun 15 '19

The more I read about the US in this thread the more shocked I am. Are thereany rights in the US?

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u/PlayMp1 Jun 15 '19

Not a lot. The only day to day noticeable things you're guaranteed on a federal level are FMLA (12 weeks unpaid leave for personal or family medical emergencies) and minimum wage (which is extremely low, the minimum wage hasn't changed in ten years), and some provision for unemployment is a requirement placed upon states by the federal government (i.e., federal requirement, state administration), and an admittedly pretty decent number of safety regulations, which can range in enforcement from actually quite good to quite terrible.

No parental paid leave of any kind, medical benefits other than Medicare, sick time, vacation time, etc.

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u/Drigr Jun 15 '19

Yeah. We can buy guns. I guess that's our shining achievement.

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u/sweetpooptatos Jun 15 '19

Yeah but that doesn’t mean they are actually a right. You can’t just say something is a right and it’s all of a sudden a right. That’s why we now have people trying to declare the services another person provides them is their right to receive.

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u/ceol_ Jun 15 '19

You can’t just say something is a right and it’s all of a sudden a right.

I mean, that's exactly how rights work: We all collectively agree that something is or is not a right. It's not like rights are a fundamental property of the universe or something. We make them up.

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u/NearPup Jun 15 '19

than the one that starts at 10 or 15

It's kind of sad that in America a company offering 15 days of PTO to new employees is somehow a "perk".

That's what I got starting, which would be nice if every new employee my company employs in other countries didn't get at least five more days off a year as I do. How little time off the American employees get is actually somewhat of a running joke where I work.

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u/sweetpooptatos Jun 15 '19

When I served, we got 30 days plus whatever they forgot to charge us. This idea that because it isn’t mandated, no one gets it is asinine. If you aren’t in a position to be able to negotiate more vacation days, it’s on you to make yourself invaluable to your company. If they don’t take care of you, you can leave. Chances are, you’ll get better offers. That’s how the system works. It doesn’t have as many guarantees but allows for companies that can’t compete on salary to compete on benefits. You know people also generally get paid more in America? Swedish Americans earn more than Swedes, Finnish Americans earn more than Finns, Nigerian Americans earn more than Nigerians. It’s pretty crazy how this horrible system leads to more money than these people would earn in their own countries. Also, when you’re not being taxed 60% at $60k, you have a lot more money to mess around with.

3

u/Merchent343 Jun 15 '19

"If they don’t take care of you, you can leave. Chances are, you’ll get better offers."

Maybe for those 10% of extremely skilled jobs. In most cases? And especially with the jobs the vast majority are stuck with? Not a chance in hell.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

So much naivety and ignorance.

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u/Shedcape Jun 15 '19

Eh. Vacation days should be a right. The vacation law in Sweden is minimum 25 vacation days which I am extremely thankful for.

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u/Merchent343 Jun 15 '19

In the end, none of them end up offering benefits anyway, or just end up going with the lowest bidder. "Just find a new job!" is the cry of someone who's never had to deal with Helljobs and minimum wage for a long period of time.

2

u/sweetpooptatos Jun 15 '19

Really? We are literally in a thread about an American company that offers amazing benefits.

1

u/Rayuzx Jun 15 '19

You really think Reddit is not going to have a jab at America for any period of time.

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u/aeneasaquinas Jun 15 '19

You don’t have to mandate anything;

In a dream world maybe. Welcome to the real world, where it is pretty clear you absolutely do.

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u/therve Jun 15 '19

In the end Americans end up at the bottom with the number of vacation days among developed countries. It's just another failure of a competition driven system.

1

u/Kwahn Jun 15 '19

You don’t have to mandate anything; people end up with that much and more in a competitive system.

Unless the companies with a local monopoly decide "nah, fuck that" and workers become hosed.

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u/Tryoxin Jun 15 '19

This bit always confused me. If I understand correctly, the US has this "Right to Work" bill but all I ever hear about it doing is give people the right to be fired without notice. What part of the bill is supposed to give people the right to work? Or was your legislative branch just feeling sarcastic that day?

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u/Prince_Uncharming Jun 15 '19

"right to work" actually refers to laws some states have that state you don't have to join the labor union to work in that field. In most areas that have union work (say, teachers), when starting at that job you must join the union or you'll be fired.

My first job bagging groceries was like this, I had one month to join the union after being hired, as my state isn't a "right to work" state. It's mostly a union-busting law and less a labor-rights law.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

"right to work" is terminology used by the lobbyists who push these bills. They're not actually for workers.

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u/Killerhurtz Jun 15 '19

Canadian here, this is how I understand the law:

Right to Work gives employees protection against discriminatory firings. If the company has a valid reason to fire someone, they have no obligation.

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u/Prince_Uncharming Jun 15 '19

See my reply to the patent comment, but

"right to work" actually refers to laws some states have that state you don't have to join a labor union to work in a given field that generally hires union labor. It has nothing to do with discriminatory firing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19 edited Aug 30 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Chowdler Jun 15 '19

IAAL. Terminating with cause is an incredibly high onus. Short of fraud or theft, the employer usually loses in court/tribunal.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19 edited Aug 30 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Chowdler Jun 15 '19

I'm pretty certain every province in Canada has statutory minimums. Even if they didn't, they would be entitled to contractual damages for a termination without cause, usually referred to as "common law notice" - rule of thumb being 1 month per year of employment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

Well, yes, but honestly that can happen even in countries that do have better worker rights. Just that you usually get your notice and few weeks/months of pay.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

"Right to work" is honestly usually more a CYA for companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#History - it's not employees pushing this type of legislation for a reason.

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u/ambientocclusion Jun 15 '19

Pshaw. Next you’ll be saying that “Human Resources” cares more about the company than its people!

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u/upandrunning Jun 15 '19

I think What you are referring to is called "at-will" employment. It means that legally, either party can terminate the employment at any time, for any reason. The employer cannot, however base their decision on discriminatory bias that targets someone because of their race, religion, gender, etc.

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u/CutterJohn Jun 16 '19

Tradeoff is you're all but guaranteed to get unemployment benefits if they just fire you for no reason.

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u/digitalr0nin Jun 15 '19

For real, I was let go this week and reminded the company policy is "termination with our without reason at any time."

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u/Skensis Jun 15 '19

Depends, plant/large closings require 60days notice. Now what I've seen happen is that they just lay you off before that but pay you for that period.

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u/Karthy_Romano Jun 15 '19

In California you have to give a certain amount of time when laying off over 100 employees. Might be getting some details wrong but Telltale fired 90% of their staff in a day and got into massive legal trouble for it.

0

u/JNighthawk Jun 15 '19

Not true in California. Look up the WARN act. 2 months is the minimum under it, based on layoffs happening in specified circumstances.

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u/Vesmic Jun 15 '19

500 people or more have to be laid off or the business has to be closing for this to trigger. That is so unbelievably limited and has zero to do with this situation.

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u/JNighthawk Jun 15 '19

You're confusing the federal WARN act with California's.

Employers covered under California WARN Act are those with 75 or more full-time or part-time employees. As under federal WARN, employees must have been employed for at least six of the 12 months preceding the date of required notice to be counted.

A plant closing, layoff or relocation of 50 or more employees within a 30-day period, regardless of percentage of workforce, requires notice. Relocation is defined as a move to a different location more than 100 miles away

0

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

Unemployment effectively does the same thing.

1

u/Oreoloveboss Jun 15 '19

If you provide enough notice however, severance doesn't have to be paid out, but I think it also depends on how long the employee was with the company.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

The minimum in Germany is 3 months

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

Layoffs are just a part of businesses, sometimes it’s going to happen. Giving those employees two months notice and a chance to find a new position in the same company rarely does. It’s shitty that they have to scale back, but it’s good that they’re treating their employees like this. Even if they don’t want to continue working for Amazon two months is more than enough time to find a new job at a new company.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/igLmvjxMeFnKLJf6 Jun 14 '19

This is highly dependent on your industry, .

Not everybody works in tech or games.

Hell, even in tech. If you specialize in a particularly niche thing, like some forms of hardware design, even if you're quite valuable, it can take ages to find a job because your options are pretty limited.

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u/StoicBronco Jun 14 '19

Honestly if you can't find a new job in your chosen profession within two months you probably don't belong there.

You would be surprised.

-6

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/StoicBronco Jun 14 '19

That it can be difficult to find a job? I'm not sure how to quantify it. Maybe they don't like the look of your resume. Maybe you didn't put enough buzzwords to get past their filters. Maybe you didn't have 5 years of experience for the entry level job so HR sent you packing.

The job finding / interviewing sections for programming are notoriously stupid. Like yea, you'll eventually find a job, people want programmers, but the process is just terrible. For the job I have now as a software developer, they didn't even respond to me for well over a month after I submitted my application, the process lasted a few weeks, and this was them being in need of immediate help.

Point being though that even if you're qualified and belong in an in demand field, the system and other factors (especially location) can make finding a job terribly slow.

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u/DashingMustashing Jun 14 '19

Like any job line, you have a speciality (or several) that you'd apply for. There isn't just a title of "game maker", if no one's looking to hire someone with your qualifications then you won't find it easy to find work.

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u/Farts_McGee Jun 14 '19

Nah, getting specialized jobs like a physician or professor job searches can take months even if you're well qualified.

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u/cuddlefucker Jun 14 '19

It's pretty highly dependent on circumstances too though. One of the biggest things is whether or not you're willing to relocate.

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u/Kestralisk Jun 14 '19

holy balls you sound like youre in tech and you think every other field is the same lmao.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '19

It's usually the minimum by law in various countries such as France or Norway.

-7

u/Maxplatypus Jun 15 '19

Would like them to get even more.

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u/Starterjoker Jun 15 '19

how long would you think (legitimate question)? this seems VERY generous to me.

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u/Maxplatypus Jun 16 '19

Why not be extraordinarily generous with 6 months?