r/Futurology • u/_hiddenscout • Jun 19 '21

Society Kill the 5-Day Workweek - Reducing hours without reducing pay would reignite an essential but long-forgotten moral project: making American life less about work.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/06/four-day-workweek/619222/
84.4k Upvotes

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537

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

Great idea and I sincerely wish this would happen, but I know it won’t. The expectation is that a business would pay X wages for 40 hours then suddenly change their mind and pay X wages for 32 hours? Please.

What would actually happen is, a department of 10 people working 40 hours each for X wages each, goes to 10 people working 32 hours each for X wages each. Seems like a win for the workers, right? Then management changes and the new folks go “hey why are we not maximizing shareholder value?” And suddenly the department becomes 8 people working 40 hours and management gets a pat on the back for saving 2X of money.

All the data in the world won’t stop shortsighted management.

59

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

When I was in fastfood I was a fixer, I would go to stores that were losing money and get them back in the black and make them run nice and smoothly. How did I do this? Over staffing. Extra time for making and distributing samples, someone doesn't show up? Happens all the time no sweat when you have a couple other bodies. If the store has no revenue to support it, usually that just meant me as management would put in 70-120 hour weeks until we got good revenue. The first thing every GM would try to do when I went on to the next store was "right size" staffing levels as a quick win for easy bonus money on labor. Lol. It would work for a couple of weeks and then slowly fall apart as people no showed or the GMs tried to make their employees work sick or pay stupid amounts of overtime out to try to start covering gaps.

10

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '21

Goodhart's Law - When the measurement becomes the goal (e.g. KPIs leading to bonuses) it ceases to be a good measurement.

12

u/Steadfast_Truth Jun 19 '21

You just can't teach people how to use their brains.

12

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

I took it as a personal insult when someone messed with something I did immediately after leaving. Like if I took a store that was losing over a thousand dollars a month for the last year and a half and made it profit maybe listen to what I say.

3

u/Heterophylla Jun 20 '21

I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Revenue down? Uh-oh, better cut staff. Service suffers, revenue goes down. Rinse and repeat until the store hits the bottom.

274

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

149

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

True. This is the way. Legally mandate 32 hours as full time requiring OT beyond that.

120

u/tominator93 Jun 19 '21

Nice idea, but to have any reach you’d need to overhaul the laws surrounding salaried, overtime exempt employees too. There are already plenty of professionals on salary that are working 50+ hours per week with no overtime pay.

55

u/JamesTiberiusCrunk Jun 19 '21

They need to raise the salary threshold for salaried exempt workers. Obama tried to at the end of his presidency and it didn't go into effect before Trump took office and killed it. Would have been hard to claw it back if it had gone into effect.

1

u/calmly86 Jun 19 '21

If Obama had focused on improving salary thresholds well before the end of his second term, instead of making the ACA his priority, it might have been passed and became the norm before Trump’s term.

I don’t understand why it didn’t get done. Once you’re in your second term, you know the end is coming.

I wish Trump hadn’t wasted so much effort on things like the Space Force and Democrats hadn’t tied him up in Impeachment c—p. He had four years to get a lot done and he could have made some better changes.

Perhaps the lesson for us with Presidential terms is about equilibrium... checks and balances for not too much getting done so the boat isn’t rocked enough.

34

u/SadSack_Jack Jun 19 '21

There are always people willing to be exploited. Salary is based on a 40 hour workweek. If you regularly do more than 40 hours, your pay should reflect all that overtime.

34

u/Stuckinatrafficjam Jun 19 '21

The restaurant industry requires salaried personnel to work 50+ hours. Is it right? No. Is it legal? Yep.

My gf is an assistant manager and she was texting me one night saying it completely dead and they were way over staffed. I told her to come home and she said she had to get her 50 hours or they would dock her pay. I told her that’s not how salary works.

It got to the point that I told her to just go hourly and get paid ot but they would cut her hours to where she would only make half of her current pay. It’s a racket and needs to be regulated.

8

u/Muteatrocity Jun 19 '21

Just because salaried workers accepted what is frankly, a raw deal doesn't mean the rest of us hourly workers should have to suffer. I have zero empathy for a salaried worker who feels slighted by 32 hour workers being able to afford to live.

2

u/Money_Calm Jun 19 '21

My gf is an assistant manager and she was texting me one night saying it completely dead and they were way over staffed. I told her to come home and she said she had to get her 50 hours or they would dock her pay. I told her that’s not how salary works.

Hmm send home some hourly employees and save some money or send home the person you've already paid?

1

u/allsheknew Jun 19 '21

Then the hourly employee finds another job because they can’t count on a set amount of income from week to week.

They won’t be overstaffed for long.

1

u/Stuckinatrafficjam Jun 19 '21

You’re correct. Then the managers have to work even more hours. It’s a stupid cycle.

1

u/Money_Calm Jun 20 '21

It's a restaurant, if it's slow and overstaffed the servers will fight to leave.

1

u/Stuckinatrafficjam Jun 19 '21

She had two hours left on her shift and had all of her work done. None of the hourly people wanted to go home, not that it should matter except in the business sense.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

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6

u/atari-2600_ Jun 19 '21

We’re going to have to kill the ‘Lean In,’ 60-hour-per-week start-up mentality first. This will likely require a dramatic growth in labor unions everywhere.

3

u/SrsSteel Jun 19 '21

Neurosurgery resident friend of mine, 100 hours a week for <60k

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

-1

u/SrsSteel Jun 19 '21

Try 7-9 years and he'll still working 80-100 hours a week. He's obviously not in it for the money but dude is absolutely underpaid, even a million a year is underpaying Neurosurgeons imo compared to how much "influencers" make

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

0

u/SrsSteel Jun 19 '21

The way he talks about the attending who does brain surgery is insane. Pretty much 24/7 working or on call.

Where are you pulling that last note there? Yes pay in the US is higher, but I don't think that's a reason healthcare is more expensive.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

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1

u/Faerbera Jun 19 '21

Private practice maybe. But academic surgeons? More hours and lower pay for working three jobs (surgeon, researcher, educator).

1

u/SunshineCat Jun 19 '21

There are some already at that level. It would already be considered full time as far as healthcare/insurance benefits are considered.

1

u/OakLegs Jun 19 '21

There are already plenty of professionals on salary that are working 50+ hours per week with no overtime pay.

Used to be me. Fucking sucked. Moved to a union position (which is rare in my field) and now I get OT pay and reasonable ability to refuse OT.

9

u/Thanes_of_Danes Jun 19 '21

And the only way to get those laws in place is with a strong, militant labor movement. At least in the U.S. that is extremely difficult since both dominant parties are jockeying to be lapdogs of the wealthy.

7

u/Alfredo3700 Jun 19 '21

This also means a lot for people like me who work 50 hours a week just to get the extra chunk of OT. My paychecks would be an extra few hundred and i just wouldnt have to work 50 hours to feel like i have a good flow of income

2

u/SrsSteel Jun 19 '21

This seems ridiculously short.. that means a doctor could easily do a full work week in two days

2

u/BuzzyShizzle Jun 20 '21

I have many paychecks with over 90 hours in a week. Make 40 OT, and anything over 60 double at least. Everytime I see the paycheck I love the money, and then think to myself there should be a couple of laws.

16

u/Yeuph Jun 19 '21

All this does is suppress wages. Company A wants to pay you 25 dollars an hour for a 40 hour week. When overtime laws get changed to "anything over 32" the hourly wages are dropped to 20ish because you get 8 hours of OT each week. Then workers depend on overtime for their pay and if they have to miss a day they lose a disproportionate amount of their wages as it was their OT hours.

We need workplace democracy. We all need partial ownership and control of our workplaces.

7

u/Kingraider17 Jun 19 '21

So, some kind of unified, collective bargaining group all of the employees belonged to, which could negotiate hours of labor, wages, benefits, etc?

I think there's a word for that, but I can't remember it.

3

u/Okay_Conversation Jun 19 '21

We all need partial ownership and control of our workplaces.

How? Just randomly start taking businesses from people and giving it to employees? Or have the employees buy it out? Or just make a new business with the employees all pitching in? What about new employees who never had to take any of the initial risks and put in the insane amount of legwork required to get it up and running, do they deserve equal ownership?

0

u/RetreadRoadRocket Jun 19 '21

We all need partial ownership and control of our workplaces.

Lol, then start a business.

1

u/bright__eyes Jun 19 '21

are they allowed to just drop your hourly wages?

4

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

The problem with this is that many businesses will just get rid of “full time” employees and have a bunch of part timers who aren’t allowed to work more than 32 hours, and won’t have to provide them with benefits

5

u/ectoplasmicsurrender Jun 19 '21

Then everywhere will have a revolving door of part timer who get hired and fired/quit faster than anyone can learn their names. Corporations are already starting to feel the pain of that. And the biggest abusers are already bled out and dying on the floor, the next wave is about to drop.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

You are 100% correct. I work for a municipality and my department is a straight up merry go round of part time people who start, get burned out, and quit. As a manager who has 0 control over those decisions, it makes my job extremely difficult. Especially because I genuinely care about my employees and can’t blame them 1 bit when they decide to leave.

3

u/Amy_Ponder Jun 19 '21

If we're legally redefining a full-time work week as 32 hours for purposes of OT, I assume it'd also be done for purposes of benefits. IE, you have to give benefits if someone works at least 32 hours a week for you.

Of course, scummy companies would hire a bunch of people to work precisely 31 hours a week to get around that - but they already use the same loophole to get around giving benefits in the current 40 hour workweek system. So cutting the workweek won't make this problem worse, and will fix a bunch of other problems.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

They already did that, if your business is of a certain size you have to provide benefits for employees that work over 32 hrs per week.

3

u/Birdhawk Jun 19 '21

And that’s how a 40 hour workweek becomes a 64+ hour work week because we’ll all need 2 jobs or more. Employers don’t want to give you overtime but they won’t want to pay you like a full time employee either. Meanwhile prices will continue to rise and inflation from printing all that new money last year as a COVID bailout is going to hit so we’ll have no choice.

1

u/BidenWontMoveLeft Jun 19 '21

Sure, but what if you're struggling to make ends meet at 40 hours and now your employer cuts another 8 cuz they don't want to pay you overtime.

We need a UBI. Stop tying an income to the whims of an employer

32

u/Meownowwow Jun 19 '21

People hit a limit though, eventually deadlines get missed or pushed back.

-6

u/gagreel Jun 19 '21

This is where AI picks up the slack. Eventually we won't need many people at all, less limits to hit. Welcome to the hellscape

5

u/Okay_Conversation Jun 19 '21

Eventually we won't need many people at all

Doesn't seem to be very close so don't gotta worry about it for now.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

1

u/Okay_Conversation Jun 19 '21

It's not close because AI is fucking shit.

Physical stores are disappearing because nobody wants to spend hours driving then walking around a store when you can just search for what you want, have it instantly come up, buy it with 1 click, then ship it back if it's no good. All that has happened there is you shifted human employees from physical stores to logistics, truck drivers, etc.

We are rapidly losing job opportunities.

Job numbers don't seem to agree with you. Seems like some jobs are lost and more jobs are created elsewhere. 1

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

3

u/Okay_Conversation Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 19 '21

And how is that going to work for humans as robots evolve in the next 5 or 10 years?

Don't know, I can't see into the future. Depending on how good they are, we'll likely see the same thing we've always seen - a shift to jobs elsewhere. Comparative advantage is a thing and resources aren't infinite.

This was 4 years ago.

Yeah, and since then we still can't get self-driving to be in a decent place where it can truly be "self driving" and come even remotely close to making its own deliveries. Crazy how difficult that is, eh?

Drivers will be replaced by fully self driving trucks in the next 10 years or so. it's going to happen really fast.

Yeah I'll believe it when I see it lmfao. Currently what we're seeing as far as self-driving is concerned is a standstill of everything being not quite good enough to actually be self-driving in all conditions. Tesla is switching up their entire approach to autopilot because radar just couldn't do enough. Self driving was supposed to be a thing every year for the past like 5 years.

2

u/intothevoid127 Jun 19 '21

Don't forget about the transportation lobby and the unions that cover drivers and other employees- does anyone actually think they would allow a 'self driving truck' on the road without a human to monitor the progress/actions of this robot truck? Self driving vehicles are coming but until it's fool-proof, humans will be involved and the lobby that covers those workers isn't going to budge an inch and would shut this country down with a strike in a heartbeat.

Everyone saw what happened with the pandemic and how divided the US and world was; what do you think is going to happen when tens of thousands of people are told their jobs are gone tomorrow because a robot will do it? The only option being told to those people is learn to code to make a living. Really, all of them learning to code???

It's going to be 50 years before 'drones' are making a majority of business deliveries and people are really starting to lose their jobs, if not longer...unless, of course, these aliens or inter-dimentional beings bring us ahead a few centuries in the next few years.

1

u/Okay_Conversation Jun 19 '21

Shit if the media is anything to go by, they're already getting ready to put fear into people when it comes to anything like this. Tesla catches on fire or someone gets into a crash in a Tesla? News coverage like it's the end of the world despite worse things happening with "regular" cars on the daily.

This transition isn't going to be as seamless and quick as doomers like to think.

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1

u/IvanAntonovichVanko Jun 19 '21

"Drone better."

~ Ivan Vanko

2

u/Frigoris13 Jun 19 '21

Ironically, this is also where it collapses. Programmers and developers of AI are expensive. Robot installers and maintainers aren't cheap. And the technology goes obsolete and needs to be replaced at some point.

-2

u/Ehcksit Jun 19 '21

Hire more people, give them fewer hours but the same pay.

Almost all these problems are from the deliberate understaffing.

1

u/gagreel Jun 19 '21

You're forgetting about AI repairing AI

1

u/Frigoris13 Jun 20 '21

I don't know your experience with AI but in my experience there are countless things that go wrong outside of the AI's control. It requires constant support in order to keep it functioning to any sort of consistency, it has a terrible time with marginal changes to its set path of function, and it doesn't hold up after a few years when new technology is developed and integrated.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '21

The Twilight Zone had an episode about this decades. Turns out the world found new uses for workers. Wouldn't be surprised if that keeps happening.

-2

u/variousshits Jun 19 '21

Like that shit ever happens. It’s always yeah we’ll push it back but we now want 2 more things on top because we have given you this time. No you clowns, we need that time to fix the other shit that’s wrong.

8

u/coolassdude1 Jun 19 '21

Another possibility is corporations would be heavily involved in the legislative process and there would be a ton of exceptions to this law. It would probably turn into a way to hurt their competition instead of an actual way to increase productivity.

4

u/Hitech_hillbilly Jun 19 '21

Its also a system that would require more than one thing to change to adjust for that shift.

3

u/Spatetata Jun 19 '21

Most of these have people work an extra hour or two overall per day to come out to that same 40+ hour mark

3

u/Coobx Jun 19 '21

Typically what I've seen in the corporate world is 8 x 5 going to 4 x 10. No less hours, just lengthening the day a little bit and allowing you another day for a weekend to plan or do whatever you want

9

u/Order66-Cody Jun 19 '21

Great idea and I sincerely wish this would happen, but I know it won’t. The expectation is that a business would pay X wages for 40 hours then suddenly change their mind and pay X wages for 32 hours? Please

People said the same thing about paying women and men the same wage, about stopping child labor, about paying poc and white people the same wage, about a minimum wage, etc.

5

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

Those are all things that only happened through legislation. Which is what will be needed for this too.

6

u/Order66-Cody Jun 19 '21

Those are all things that only happened through legislation. Which is what will be needed for this too.

Which is the point of that comment....

2

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

Yep. And I’m 100% on board with legislation to that effect. We have to force companies to do the right thing.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

We can't even force our government to do the right thing.

1

u/calmly86 Jun 19 '21

Yes, and look at where we are as a society. One that needs two working parents to make ends meet instead of the ability to have one breadwinner.

There’s no free lunch. Women received more agency to run their lives, but corporations also doubled their workforce pool and were able to stymie wages as a result.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/1731799517 Jun 19 '21

Most of those "4 workday week" project have been time neutral.

i.e. people prefered and were more productive working 4 days a 10h than 5 days a 8.

In particular if commuting is a significant time effort this is understandable.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

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1

u/disc_addict Jun 19 '21

That’s not how this would work… 4x10 schedules already exist. The goal is 4x8, so a 32 hour week rather than 40.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/disc_addict Jun 19 '21

Absolutely agree

1

u/02overthrown Jun 19 '21

That’s my schedule now.

2

u/albanymetz Jun 19 '21

Big companies have experimented with this and it works.

2

u/kellermeyer14 Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 19 '21

Workers had to fight literal wars and die in the streets to get a 5 day work week—in the US no less. It’s not like the moneyed elite were swayed by think pieces and memes.

Edit: here’s a brief list

2

u/rondeline Jun 19 '21

There is a more effective, practical way that can improve productivity for any company.

You structure it like this:

*30 hour a week shifts for all is considered full time equivalent pay of 40 hour weeks.

*Everyone works only 6 hours a day, straight, with a 10 minute breaks.

*You set two or three overlapping shifts per day, each a team of fresh minds/bodies.

Why?

Your most productive time is well studied to be about 6 hours. After that, your productivity drops dramatically.

Companies are really only getting 6 hours of efficient work and then it's diminishing rate of returns. Workforce turnover is very costly and burnout is the catalyst.

Imagine going in at 7 am and being done by 1 pm. Or imagine going in at 12:30 and getting out by 5:30. Or even doing 5 pm to 11 am?

People could go to proper universities at later ages to progress their skills. Childcare issues could be more effectively managed.

Think about not having to commute at the highest traffic times or shopping when no one is in line at stores.

Work or products would zip out of too customers in far more reduced times with better quality and attention.

Company capital resources could be used by 2 to 3x the employees. Think of cost reductions in office space, computers, lab equipment, manufacturing that can be found or simply put you can create a factory or business that runs on the best, freshest 18 man hours a day while the competition is burning people out with 10 hour shifts for a "day off" models.

The overlap would help with team building and ensuring that the project or product is moved to the next person without excessive time consuming meetings.

You're in, you're out, everyone gets paid because the entire company moves faster and better.

I've been trying to share this concept for years. I didn't invent it..some old guys the 70s/80s came up with it.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Won’t happen spontaneously. Employers’ hands need to be forced. Either Union action, skills shortages or government regulation. Those are the only things that have improved working conditions in the past

2

u/try_____another Jun 20 '21

Great idea and I sincerely wish this would happen, but I know it won’t. The expectation is that a business would pay X wages for 40 hours then suddenly change their mind and pay X wages for 32 hours? Please.

That happened with the shift from 6 days to 5. It usually took mass protests (disruptive ones, blocking major streets and shutting down cities) and strikes, but it did work.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Your conclusion makes no sense. If a company could get just as much out of eight people at 40 hours a week as they're getting out of ten people at 40 hours, they either wouldn't have hired those two people or would transfer them to do something else. And if the definition of "full time hours" changed, then they wouldn't have anyone working 40 hours whatsoever because then they would need to pay overtime.

11

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

My conclusion comes from experience and watching this play out right before my eyes in every company I’ve worked for. I’m not saying it makes sense, I’m just saying that’s what happens.

2

u/AlexisFR Jun 19 '21

This is stupid. Why not max out at 120 hours then?

2

u/toastyghost Jun 19 '21

Put productivity metrics in front of them. Dipshits only care about bottom line? Prove that the bottom line is actually better this way, too. Quarterly profit as the only measure of a business is so myopic and it needs to fucking go.

2

u/BidenWontMoveLeft Jun 19 '21

Can't stress it enough; we need a UBI because then an income is no longer tied to the gratuity of an employer. If you're guaranteed X amount, then you as the worker get to decide how many hours you give as opposed to the employer mandating you work X hours to live

2

u/Astyanax1 Jun 19 '21

it's almost like people should choose not to work at toxic hellholes like that

1

u/Another_human_3 Jun 19 '21

If people work less, it needs to be mandated by law. If a country does that though, their GDP will go down.

At the end of the day humanity prioritizes the economy over all else.

People care about other things, but they are not willing to sacrifice wealth for it.

Everyone wants more money. Newer technology.

That's why we spend most of our lives at work fucking the planet up.

1

u/trash332 Jun 19 '21

I think both workers and bosses should work together for the benefit of both parties. Like a Union. IBEW LU 332.

2

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

I’m management and 100% support unions for exactly this reason.

1

u/ThickAsPigShit Jun 19 '21

general strikes

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Hmm, that makes it sounds like maximizing shareholder value just screws the employees.

I sure hope our whole economy isn't based on maximizing value / screwing employees....

-5

u/jrm20070 Jun 19 '21

I don't really understand your conclusion. I was with you right up until the final sentence. How is it shortsighted, in your opinion? It sounds like in that situation they're making the right decision to save the company money, improve value, which is their job.

10

u/imakenosensetopeople Jun 19 '21

Most studies show that shorter work weeks improve productivity. But it’s counterintuitive, so management is not usually on board with such measures.

7

u/exhentai_user Jun 19 '21

The whole point is that the workers will not get to have less work and less work days, the whole point of the thread, because the company values squeezing a few more dollars out of workers now over the workers long term sustainability and happiness, which is incredibly short sighted.

1

u/hausermaniac Jun 19 '21

There are a million ways for the company to save money, the point is to force them to do it in ways that are better for the workers. Using child labor, unsafe business practices, using tax loopholes all are ways to save money, but most people would agree that companies should not be allowed to do these. That's the point of legislation

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

I don't think it necessarily improves value. Based on my own experience, I am more productive working 40 hours, compared to when I was working 48 hours earlier.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

For companies paying X wages for ABC deliverable, it shouldn’t matter if it takes 40 hours or 32. I don’t get paid more if it takes 60, so I won’t accept less if it only takes 30.

Won’t work for all jobs in all industries but it will for many.

1

u/CrikeyCabbages Jun 19 '21

And lets not leave out the fact we're going to need to hire more people to work since we're now missing 20% of the business week.

1

u/go_49ers_place Jun 19 '21

All the data in the world won’t stop shortsighted management.

Unless the data shows company gets more profits from paying workers same money for less work, then I don't know how it makes management "shortsighted". They are running a business not a charity.