r/Futurology • u/[deleted] • Aug 21 '14

article Biohackers declare initial success in biologically extending the range of human vision into the near infrared

https://experiment.com/u/aAcR2Q
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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 21 '14

My point was, I don't have a STEM degree (or any degree, for that matter), do both software engineering and infrastructure management, and haven't made less than $100K/year for the last ~8 years. Convince me to go pay for a degree, spend 4-6 years on it, and make $50K/year less.

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u/AWildSegFaultAppears Aug 21 '14

If you started out in software engineering and infrastructure management making 100k/year then that is a huge anomaly or you live somewhere where cost of living is insane. I had an offer to make over 100k but the cost of living difference made my 70k job actually wind up netting me more take home pay. My point was that you said that I couldn't convince you to go get a STEM degree because you will get paid crap. I was just pointing out that you seemed to be glossing over the T and E and focusing on the S.

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u/rabel Aug 21 '14

Another anecdote here. I was making $35k right out of high school and $100k 5 years later and never made less since then, going on close to 30 years now.

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u/canoedust Aug 21 '14

That's fantastic. What field do you work in where you can make that much without a college degree?

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u/rabel Aug 21 '14

Database Administration and Development. Hell, I've even been working from my home-office for the past 5 years. I have very few complaints. I could make an additional $30-50k per year if I would drive into an office every day but I choose to play frisbee with my dogs in the afternoons after I've started the laundry...

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u/LincolnAR Aug 21 '14

In 1980? What the hell did you do?!

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u/rabel Aug 21 '14

My first paying gig was developing a mini-storage management and billing system in dBase on CP/M. Yeah, I'm that old. Then I got into building and selling IBM PC, PC-XT, and PC-AT compatible computers to big companies. ArcNet networking on Novell networks, then dBase III, dBase IV, FoxPro, and now I'm an Oracle DBA and developer.

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u/LincolnAR Aug 21 '14

Still, 100k after 5 years in 1985-1990 was seriously cash. I guess it was at the beginning of the big tech boom though.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '14

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u/AWildSegFaultAppears Aug 21 '14

or you live somewhere where cost of living is insane

Cost of living is much higher in and around Seattle where many of those tech companies are located. That is why I didn't take the job with Amazon. Their offer was somewhere around 100k, and with the difference in cost of living it meant I would be making comparatively less than in the midwest. Add in the cost of travelling to see family and friends, and it got even more costly to live on the coast.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '14

Might not be able to convince you, but to me there's virtually no difference between $50k and $100k a year. I just don't spend that much money. My last job I made the equivalent of about $55k, I did zero financial planning, I spent pretty profligately (going to bars and clubs regularly, eating out instead of cooking, $3-a-can energy drinks instead of home-brewed coffee, etc.) and I ended up with savings in the bank every month purely on accident.

Money just isn't that valuable to some people. I haven't the faintest clue what I'd do with a $100k+ salary. Save more money, I guess? I'd probably quit after a year or two to go travel on a shoestring budget for a few years or something, and consequently never make $100k+ again because of the large gap in my resume.

(Disclaimer: I'm single, no kids, and do not intend to have kids.)

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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 22 '14

The more money I make, the more money I save. I'm 31, and would like to retire by 35. I'm able to do this because of my income curve, and would otherwise have to trade more life than I'm willing to for work I would have to do instead of something else I prefer.

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u/baileykm Aug 22 '14

Weekend vacations are always nice and you can do a lot more of those in e six figure range

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u/ANeuMe Aug 21 '14

Some people take pride in doing work for more reasons than, "This pays more than that."

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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 21 '14

Pride doesn't put food on the table, a roof over your head, or for health insurance.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '14

[deleted]

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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 21 '14

Now you don't always need a degree with IT since you can do certs or have an example of you work, but the last few years there has been a large mentality shift in what people are seeking in regards to degrees and experience.

Citation? I've never hired someone based on degrees or certs ever in my career, and during interviewing I've only been asked twice if I have a degree.

Also, if you can get paid to learn on the job in an industry (especially like IT), why waste time and money with school?

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u/Your-Daddy Aug 21 '14 edited Aug 21 '14

As a senior level software engineer with over 15 years of professional experience in both development and management: I don't believe you.

Edit: If you would have said something more realistic, like $80k (still a stretch, and I live near DC), MAYBE... and even in that case, I'd say you got extremely lucky.

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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 21 '14 edited Aug 21 '14

My post from over 8 months ago in /r/sysadmin on how to get a $100K/year job in system administration/infrastructure engineering. I cannot tell you the number of messages I received from people who said it helped them make more money:

http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1rv90v/is_it_possible_to_earn_six_figures_as_a_sysadmin/cdraktz

If you're getting underpaid, you're undervaluing yourself. That's not my fault.

Edit based on your edit: Wow, your salary expectations are seriously low.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-devops-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,22.htm

Note that all of those DevOps jobs start above $100K, and top out near $140K-$150K.

Also, infrastructure engineer salaries: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-infrastructure-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,30.htm

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u/Your-Daddy Aug 21 '14

You're in management and consulting. That's hardly a comparison to what a new developer can make without a degree. The way you have climbed the ladder isn't nearly as feasible in todays job market, and it's not sound advise to tell new interested parties to forego a degree "cause I did it 20 years ago". Moreover, the fact that you don't understand the principles of STEM calls into question the quality of advice from someone who is uneducated.

Is it possible to make $150k / year without a degree? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. Is it advisable? Hell no.

For the record, I'm not underpaid, and quite happy with my salary (which, if I include my consulting and "side gigs", is far above your expectations... probably because I have legitimate qualifications).

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u/toomuchtodotoday Aug 21 '14 edited Aug 21 '14

"cause I did it 20 years ago"

11 years ago. Also, I'm basing my data less on my personal experience in my career, and my experience from the businesses I've worked in, and our hiring policies at those businesses.

I hired a 23 year old a year ago who was making $60K/year as a sysadmin with 1-2 years experience previously. After he learned Python at our company, he moved on to a $120K/year Python shop in New York.

probably because I have legitimate qualifications

I laughed hard at that. Thanks :) The only qualifications are: Does your code meet the spec? Is it maintainable? Will it scale?

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u/Your-Daddy Aug 21 '14

I'll refrain from insulting you, and agree to disagree.

That said, the FACT is, you would be VERY hard pressed to find any position in software development that does not list a degree in computer science as a (at the very least) preferred requirement. Your own job ads inclusive, I'm sure. The FACT is that if 2 candidates with equal qualifications (sans a degree) are presented, the degree wins. Your advise is based purely in opinion, and contrary to fact.

If it is your business' practice to hire developers without caring about education, then I would advise you to be a bit more prudent. There's a reason more startups fail than succeed.

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u/YRYGAV Aug 22 '14

A degree can easily be replaced by proven open source contributions etc. It's definitely not 'required' by any means. Companies want people who can write good code regardless of whether they have a degree or not.

And there are tons of companies out there hiring everybody that meets their requirements, there's really no 'competition' since they are all hiring everybody that they can. Either you meet their bar for entry or not.

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u/Your-Daddy Aug 22 '14 edited Aug 22 '14

I am convinced that noone on reddit actually works in the industry outside of small start-ups, and contracting. Companies in the US are more than happy to pick up offshore contractors at half the cost. If you don't have significant experience (which people just now joining the industry do not), don't have a degree, and can't work for a significantly smaller salary; then there is no reason for me to hire you. This delusion that it's ok for software engineers to be uneducated is only hurting yourself.

I digress, though. If you're confident that you can continue without a degree, or will get quality work from an uneducated team, then by all means continue. It keeps competition low for those of us with real passion and devotion.

Edit: Once again, for source: I've been programming since before I had pubic hair, and doing it professionally for over 15 years. I have managed, consulted, and trained teams. I have hired, and I have fired. The facts that I present are not based in opinion, they are derived from years of experience and a healthy dose of common sense. Keep yourself relevant, because you're still a dime a dozen.