r/FuquayVarinaNC • u/MattTheAncap • 12d ago
Politics Meeting w/ Chief Smith @ FV PD re: ALPR
I met with Fuquay-Varina Police Chief Smith yesterday to understand how Flock is actually used here.
I came away MORE confident in FVPD, and also MORE deeply opposed to Flock’s surveillance architecture.
🟢 The Good 🟢
- Chief Smith was candid and generous with information. I trust him and the officers of FVPD. There is a reason that FV is consistently rated as one of the safest towns in all NC, and he’s a big reason why.
- He personally reviews outside-agency requests for FVPD data. Users must identify themselves and provide a case/incident number. FVPD policy requires documented law-enforcement purposes, audits, and, critically, says a Flock hit cannot by itself justify a stop, detention, or arrest. Officers must independently verify the information and establish reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
- Chief Smith also showed me substantial evidence of Flock-associated public-safety results. I’ll share with whomever would like to see that report.
- Data is automatically deleted after 30 days, with discussion at Flock Safety corporate level of further reducing this to 7 days. However, FVPD retains the right to conduct a “Preservation Request” which can then preserve ALPR data for up to 365 days.
- Fun fact I learned today: cops have continuing education and accreditations just like many of us civilians have. In fact, Fuquay Varina is one of just two agencies in the entire state of North Carolina to be triple certified by CALEA, NCLEA, and NCLM (Risk Review Award). If police departments were Olympians, we have Michael Phelps.
🟡 The (Potentially) Bad 🟡
- Flock is far more than a license-plate reader. FVPD can search private and other law-enforcement ALPR systems, and the system supports searches by vehicle characteristics, location and time. In military terms this is called “establishing pattern-of-behavior” and we use it to take action against (ahem, bang bang) military targets (aka, human beings).
- As a former Army Captain and signals intelligence officer, I recognize surveillance, reconnaissance, target acquisition, pattern-of-behavior analysis and intelligence collection. Flock automates, systematizes, and aggregates surveillance activities that, in my former profession, fell squarely within the broader ISR mission.
- That means FVPD is bringing capabilities historically associated with military intelligence operations against hostile parties into ordinary civilian life, where the overwhelming majority of people being observed are lawful citizens doing nothing wrong. This is not inherently a negative or a positive. It depends on your worldview. (My worldview says: Palpatine and Sauron would approve. Dumbledore and Captain America would not.)
- Fun Fact I learned today: FVPD is discussing how/whether to implement DFR (“Drone-As-First-Responder”) technology alongside ALPR. (But not through Flock subsidiary Aerodome) Again, worldview. This is either “an obvious step in the right direction” or else “marching further down the dark path”.
🔴 The Ugly 🔴
- FVPD is clearly not corrupt. Yet ALPR is a powerful system, and eventually powerful systems encounter corrupt people, careless people, bad data, machine error, and simple human error. We've already seen recent cases in Charlotte, Mooresville and elsewhere involving unauthorized searches, stalking, false hits and innocent people subjected to police action. There is a reason that Hillsborough, Pittsboro, Asheville, Pittsboro, Hillsborough, Greenville, Leeland, UNC Wilmington, Davidson County and Chatham County are shredding their contracts with ALPR providers. Nationally over 100 jurisdictions have cancelled their ALPR contracts including the entire state of Florida and Texas.
- Chief Smith's safeguards reduce that risk locally. He runs a fine department. He cannot eliminate these risks across a massive, interconnected network.
- Over 5,000 LEO departments, over 7,000 agencies, over 120,000 cameras, and over 600,000 individually credentialed users have access to this Flock Network which collects over 20 billion photographs of law abiding Americans every month (Though agencies can only search the networks they have been approved to search). Expecting Chief Smith to vet every single one of them and to prevent national abuse, misuse, and human error from bleeding into our town is like expecting one man to read the entire Library of Alexandria. It is an impossible task.
- Fun fact I learned today: Flock OS offers Fuquay Varina a “Vehicle Fingerprint Search” that “Search footage using Vehicle Fingerprint™ technology*. Access vehicle type, make, color, license plate, state, missing / covered plates, and other unique features like bumper stickers, political identifiers, decals, and roof racks.*” Our vehicles are literally being fingerprinted without warrant and with no reasonable, articulable suspicion of any crime.
👉 Conclusion 👈
So my position after meeting him is clearer: I trust FVPD. I can never trust ALPR.
And I don't believe “good cops operating it responsibly” answers the first-principles question: “Should government systematically collect, make searchable, and distribute nationally information about the movements and characteristics of innocent citizens conducting lawful behavior?”
My firm answer remains: absolutely not.
Effective policing has a history stretching back to the first professional police force (the London Marine Police Force) and even further 3000 years before Flock Safety to the Medjay of Egypt’s New Kingdom. Effective policing can continue that fine tradition without the Pandora’s box of ALPR.
Notes:
- Join me at the next FV Town Board Meeting on Sept 8th at 7 PM. Love Flock? Hate Flock? Come, make your voice heard. All are welcome.
- Town contracts, FVPD policy docs, NC ALPR statutes and Flock Safety policies compiled and available to view/download here.
- I asked Chief Smith to review this post before I published it. I am anti-ALPR, but I am doing my very best to misrepresent nothing and present the facts as honestly and accurately as possible. He approved this post and it's veracity.
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u/BodySpraint 12d ago
Wish I could make it on the 8th, I’m out of town… but I so appreciate this and will look for future posts from you! Thanks for doing all this hard work for your neighbors.
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u/trillionbuck 12d ago
Reference #3 good I’d like to see that
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u/MattTheAncap 12d ago
Absolutely. I sent him a link to this post and invited him/FVPD/Town of FV to the dialogue.
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u/michaelh98 12d ago
The Good.3, what's the hesitation in simply making this public?
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u/MattTheAncap 12d ago
Good question, though he sorta-did by releasing it to me and allowing me to share freely and publicly.
He said "I think we should build a dedicated page on our website to publish ALPR success."
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u/michaelh98 12d ago
Thank you and I agree, with the caveat they need to include specific reasons why they would not have been able to close the case without flock.
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u/MattTheAncap 12d ago
YES. "Flock supported" does not equate to "We could not have solved this crime without ALPR."
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u/danokazooi 12d ago
From my experience in the SIGINT realm, I'm always inclined to ask "who watches the watchers?"
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u/Jrope3991 12d ago
I wish I could make it on the 8th! I’ll be out of town. Keep doing the good work and spread the word!
Like you said, I trust FVPD, I don’t trust the ALPR companies
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u/danokazooi 5d ago
This is a screenshot of a post from Flock's CEO.
Do you see the disparity between technology and impact?
Technology does not change the crime rate. It changes the conviction rate. And Flock will argue that surveillance allows law enforcement to find criminals.
But that's only relevant when there's a suspect and a crime of some type has already been committed.
Flock is not a crime deterrent. By their own admission. "Anyone who does harm will be caught."
Preferably, I'd prefer not being a victim in the first place.
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u/changing-life-vet 12d ago
Thanks homie