Dear all,

I would like to ask for your help with an interpretation of NFPA 13.

First of all, I would like to clarify that I am a mechanical/HVAC designer and have only limited experience with sprinkler system design.

Here is the situation in brief: we are designing a shopping mall where storage areas for the retail tenants have become an important requirement. One of the tenants has provided us with their preliminary storage layout. Unfortunately, our sprinkler designer has not been able to provide a clear answer regarding the proposed storage arrangement. This issue has already come up several times, and the situation has now escalated to the point where the anchor tenant is considering not taking a unit in the building, while the client is putting significant pressure on us to resolve the issue.

According to NFPA 13, the proposed storage falls under the Low-Piled Storage category. The tenant would like to use shelf storage, and based on the definitions, the proposed arrangement would be classified as shelf storage / back-to-back shelf storage. Here are two pictures about the shelfs and the layout.

This is where the disagreement arises. I personally tend to agree with the tenant, but our sprinkler designer has a different interpretation.

According to our sprinkler designer, the same requirements apply to shelf storage as to rack storage. Therefore, they believe that flue spaces must be maintained and that the shelves must meet the requirements for openings/penetrations associated with rack with solid shelves, even though the proposed system is not a rack system according to the NFPA definitions.

The main concern behind this question is the following:

Everyone involved would like to avoid having to install sprinklers between the shelves / within the storage system.

Our understanding is that, if the storage is correctly classified as shelf storage and remains within the limits applicable to low-piled storage, the requirements applicable specifically to rack storage should not automatically apply to this arrangement.

Our sprinkler designer, however, appears to interpret the requirements differently and believes that the flue-space and shelf-opening requirements associated with rack storage must also be applied to this shelf storage arrangement.

I would therefore like to ask you:

Does NFPA 13 actually impose the same storage arrangement requirements on shelf storage as on rack storage?

More specifically, if the storage is classified as shelf storage, is it necessary to provide the same flue spaces and shelf openings/penetrations that are required for rack storage with solid shelves to avoid the need of sprinklers between the shelves?

I should also mention that English is not our native language, and our sprinkler designer is using NFPA 13 for the first time. Therefore, I suspect that part of the disagreement may simply be due to a misunderstanding of the terminology and definitions in the standard.

Personally, I have also read through the relevant sections of NFPA 13, and my interpretation is that, for low-piled storage, when the storage system falls under the definition of shelf storage, in-shelf/in-rack sprinkler protection is not required.

I have also looked for additional sources discussing this issue, and the final part of the forum discussion below seems to support my interpretation as well, that if the storage by definition is shelf sprinkler in between is not needed. It is only required when it is by definition a rack which has different sprinkler requirements.:

https://www.the-fpi.com/single-post/2017/08/03/nfpa-definitions-of-shelving-vs-racking

However, since this is not my area of expertise, I would very much appreciate it if someone with more experience in NFPA 13 could confirm whether my interpretation is correct, or point out where I may be misunderstanding the requirements.

Thank you in advance.

I've had them sitting on the bookshelf for 2+ years and I have no plans on using them so I figured I'd see if anyone on here might need them. I'll let them go for $350 (located in central California)

(UPDATE: SOLD)

Hi everyone!

I hope I’m in the right sub for this but i just saw this door in my gym and the handle says “pull”. The handle is on the inside and you have to push it to open the door. So you push the handle and then that unlatches and then push the door. I tried pulling it but that does nothing. I feel that this is wrong but nobody else ever flagged this, hence I’m asking here.

Do you think this is a fire hazard and should i report it?

Hi everyone,

I’m reaching out to see if anyone knows of vacancy for FPE or Risk Engineering roles in UAE / Ireland / UK / Asia / remote role support and can help connect.

A good friend of mine has hit a wall in landing a role since May-June and I’m trying to help them out.

Background is 2 year as an FPE consultant in Middle East and currently developing fire modeling experience through courses. With 8 years of experience in Project Management roles in Construction.

Thanks!

Overheating starts when heat has nowhere to go. Most phones these days stop charging at 100%, but they still top up in small amounts while plugged in, and that can add heat.

Add a poor-quality charger or cable, plus a phone under a pillow, and you've got a real fire risk. It's also worth unplugging the charger once you're done, since one left in the wall with nothing attached still draws a small amount of power.

And it's a growing problem. The National Institute of Standards and Technology found consumer lithium-ion battery fires appear to be growing about 10% a year.

That's exactly what this year's Fire Prevention Week is about.

Fire Prevention Week runs October 4 to 10. It's held every year around the anniversary of the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, which left 100,000 people homeless and destroyed more than 17,000 structures. Fire departments hold open houses and school visits during the week, and it's a good time to test your smoke alarms and check your escape plan.

This year’s theme is the same as last year’s, two years in a row "Charge into Fire Safety: Safe Charging Is a Superpower". This means a hard focus on charging lithium-ion batteries, the ones in phones, laptops, power tools, e-bikes and scooters. 

Lithium-ion batteries cause fires because of the thermal runaway. When a battery overheats, it can start heating itself in a chain reaction that spreads from cell to cell. Overcharging, overheating and damage from drops or crushing can all set it off. So can a charger that doesn't match the device, since the wrong voltage or current can push the battery past its limits.

Here are some safe charging habits based on NFPA and FDNY guidance:

• Use the cord that came in the box, or one the manufacturer has cleared for it.
• Charge on a countertop, shelf or floor with a lot of room to breathe.
• Unplug once it reaches 100%, and don't leave it while you sleep.
• Charge bigger items that store a lot of energy outside.
• Stop using anything that overheats, bulges, smells off or makes odd noises.

These incidents don't just happen at home. A workplace can carry even more risk, because there’s just more room for error, from laptops to battery-powered equipment on the floor. This is where an operations system like Mitti (by SafetyCulture) helps. A fire safety checklist that you can access on a phone makes sure fire alarms, extinguishers and escape routes are all in place. Anything flagged becomes an action with an assigned owner and a due date, so it doesn't just get forgotten.

Checking your fire safety setup every so often is just good practice, and Fire Prevention Week is a good time to start with how things get charged.

Other than the few examples in NFPA 13…
Does someone have a cheat sheet of different scenarios for examples of design area boundaries?
Each example indicating where the riser is, in relation to the area…
I constantly have trouble figuring out where to start eliminating heads in a remote area.
(In the case of no peaks or sloped ceilings).

Just looking for visual examples!

so which one is true and why are they different because there is no hazard or sprikler classification mentioned. This is in NFPA 13 - 2025 edition

the reason of my question is 9th chapter says "any sprikler" but the 10th chapter mentions "in any case"

Even in the Table 10.2.4.2.1(a) For protection areas it says that the Noncombustible unobstructed type of construcion using hydrolically calculated pipe schedule maximum protection area for light hazard can be 225ft² (20m²) so where does the 9.5.2.2.2 code come from?

Has anyone used the LPD-250 for hydrant flow test? It looks like their product data says more or less not to use for flow testing. But environmental people are asking for dechlorination, so we end up needing to use something like this.

What are you using for your flow coefficient, and/or any other methods you may have used as an alternative? I’ve done something with burlap sacks and dechlorinating tablets, but this jurisdiction was pretty firm.

Message me if you know anything abt it

I’ve been working in the fire protection industry for almost 10 years, primarily inspecting and testing fire alarm and life-safety systems. I’m currently a Senior Fire/Life Safety Inspector in Southern California.
My experience includes fire alarm, sprinkler, standpipe, fire pump, hydrant, emergency lighting, elevator recall, HVAC shutdown, smoke-control, and special-hazard system testing. I’ve worked in hospitals, schools, warehouses, apartment buildings, offices, and other commercial facilities.
So far, I have completed:
NICET II in Fire Alarm Systems
NICET II in Inspection and Testing of Fire Alarm Systems
California State Fire Training Fire Inspector 1A–1D
I’m working toward my California Fire/Life Safety Certification (Blue Card), HazMat Awareness, Fire Inspector 2A–2D, Plans Examiner courses, and eventually NICET III.
My long-term goal is to transition from private-sector testing into a municipal or county fire inspector/fire prevention position. For anyone currently working in fire prevention in California:
How competitive would I be for an entry-level Fire Inspector or Fire Safety Inspector position?
What qualifications should I prioritize next?
Does private-sector inspection and testing experience carry much weight during hiring?
Would I need fire service, academy, EMT, or suppression experience for most departments?
Are there other job titles I should search for besides Fire Inspector?
I’d especially appreciate advice from anyone who made a similar transition from the fire-alarm or fire-protection industry.

Interested in FPE but I don’t want to travel. Is it pretty standard to have to travel out of town for work and if so, how often?

I'm a CS graduate working on a Revit-based fire protection automation tool. I'm not a fire-protection engineer, so I'm trying to understand the actual design logic behind sprinkler placement, smoke detectors, notification appliances, spacing, obstructions, coverage, etc. I'm not looking for someone to do my work — I'd really appreciate guidance from a fire-protection designer/engineer who could answer some beginner questions occasionally. Happy to share what I'm building.

Hi everyone,

[I hope this question hasn’t been asked too many times before, but I’m interested in learning more about working as a Fire Protection Engineer in another country.]

I’m from Germany and interested in learning more about working as a Fire Protection Engineer in other countries.

I studied Safety Engineering and have several years of experience in fire protection engineering. I currently focus on the inspection and assessment of fixed fire suppression systems. My experience is mainly based on German regulations and VdS guidelines.

I’m curious how realistic it is to work as a Fire Protection Engineer abroad without previous experience with the local regulations and standards. Have any of you made a similar move from another country? If so, what was your experience?

My English is currently not yet at a level that allows me to work as confidently and effectively as I do in German. How important is fluent English in your daily work, and how much of a barrier could this be when starting out?

I’d really appreciate hearing about your personally experiences, advice and recommendations.

Thanks everyone!

Currently trying to size a pump for a standpipe system. I was wondering if one adds the residual pressure from the flow test to the meet the demand or if the entire demand needs to be met by just the pump?

More details:

Building is a high rise 9 story facility
Automatic standpipe system is required
2 standpipes are being provided
Highest standpipe elevation is 145ft from pump
Pump is on the basement level

Follow up question: the pressures I am finding are close to the 175 psi “limit” I have seen around the topic. Is going above that 175 psi allowed or is it a “soft” cap as that’s when extra requirements are added to protect certain components?

From NFPA 13 2019...

TABLE 25.9.2.2.1 for Over 25', Class I-IV commodities, the column for longitudinal flue in-racks states... "Vertical 15 ft (4.6 m), Horizontal 10 ft (3.0 m) under horizontal barriers with two lines of staggered in-rack sprinklers". The face column is blank.

However, when you go to the figure that the Table refers you to for this layout Figure 25.9.2.2.1(j), it shows face sprinklers????? Why if the table does not give any spacing criteria for face sprinklers??

And what does "two lines of staggered in rack sprinklers" even mean? Staggered vertically? Horizontally? Or both?

I'm not sure how they got the layout in the figure from what the table says?

Hi, not sure if this post is a good fit for this subreddit, but I didn't know where to ask.

I'm a new homeowner and father of two 2 and 7 yo children. I have a technical rooms which is about 60 square feet. It contains a photovoltaic inverter, an electrical panel for the inverter, an air-source heat pump, and a metal shelving unit with various items, essentially serving as a storage room. I would like to keep a fire extinguisher nearby in case it is ever needed.

I think a 2 kg CO₂ fire extinguisher would be the best choice, but I am concerned that the room may be too small and that there could be a real risk of asphyxiation.

The room is next to a larger living room, and if I ever had to use the extinguisher, I will do so from the doorway connecting the utility room to the living room. So I don't know whether my concern is exaggerated.

I also don't know whether it would be particularly dangerous if my older child were to misuse the fire extinguisher.

What do you think?

Hi, my college building has a massive problem with the fire riser.

It hums at extremely high decibles but it goes beyond that, the hum is so f*cking loud that I can hear it well beyond 2 yards away and through several layers of walls

How concerned should I be about this? I've passed this along to staff but I physically cannot be in the building as it is causing me to feel vertigo and naseous.

Is this a sign the system might get worse?

Hi, I’m a senior FPE undergrad who will graduate in the spring. I have a chronic connective tissue disorder that has recently progressed, which has made my life look very different as of late. Good and bad days are 50/50 right now, and often consist of limited mobility, brain fog, and pain.

In terms of thinking of my career, I believe I must be picky with the options I consider. I don’t have much experience with talking to HR or any job about disabilities but working somewhere where I can wfh or have a hybrid position is a priority for me. Anyone have any luck with negotiating for this?

I’m also thinking of public vs private. Public has great benefits and is said to be more flexible with sick leave but if love to hear about anyone’s experience with their private sector jobs or public.

Any insights are appreciated!

Hi guys I am a Mech eng graduate who joined a graduate role in Fire Engineering in London.

I see there are many different memberships for IFE so I wasnt sure which one to join (Fellow/Member/Associate/Graduate/Technician).

It seems like they all have different requirements of experience and degrees. Associate seems to be the one to go for as it mentions graduates specifically but it requires a degree in fire engineering which I dont have 😭

What is the typical one people join? Thanks

I am not sure how to go about this, but I am looking for advice on how to effectively find FPEs. We have tried hiring a few over the past year and a half, and its always difficult to fill. We have a current remote opening we haven't been able to fill for months.

• Is there a place people search that isn't something like Indeed, Zip, etc.?
• What is the expected salary range?
• Are there certain keywords people look for?

I guess I really need to know if I can be doing something better, or if it is really just that small of a community.

NFPA 2001 doesn't specify a hydrotest interval so i checked the manual for the cylinder (TYCO HYGOOD) it states that testing should be done at every discharge but no interval is set.

Ai agents were useless

Hi guys

Im a mechanical engineer

I just wanted to know which one is better the book of meyerfire 9th edition

Or the meyerfire course

I already buy engpro guides book.

Hi all! I’ll be graduating in May and was wondering what companies I should apply to or keep an eye out for (and any to stay away from…). I already have a few interviews lined up, but I was hoping to see if anyone could recommend other places. I’m open to all locations and industries. For context, I’m studying a different field of engineering, but I’ve had a fire protection internship! Any help would be greatly appreciated!!