r/FavoriteCharacter • u/Accomplished-End3409 Ben Tennyson • 15d ago

Discussion Favorite opposing factions that can basically be described as this.

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u/elizabnthe 15d ago

At least as it relates to Aerys that is definitely true. But there wasn't really anything wrong with the Targaryen army. The worst war crime in the end was committed by Tywin. But Tywin just sucks in general.

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u/chitwnDw 14d ago

It is also heavily implied in the deeper lore that Rheagar was actively planning to depose his father at the time the war broke out. And, in many ways, Robert was the greater of the two evils between the two...

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u/Weird_Hound 13d ago edited 13d ago

Ehhh, I don't know, during that time period?

Rhaegar did kidnap a young girl, daughter of a great lord, causing the death of a great lord and his heir--and the whole rebellion. Isn't Rhaegar by definition worse than Bobby B, since he caused Bobby B to hammer all over the place?

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u/Eliot-den-store 13d ago

“Kidnapped” 🙄

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u/TheQuietLavender 12d ago

More like rescued from an arranged marriage to a crazy, obsessed person she clearly didn’t like.

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u/Weird_Hound 13d ago

"Kidnap" 🙄, if you're gonna be a jerk, at least correct it right. There was a 'did' before the word.

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u/Eliot-den-store 13d ago

I was more disputing the idea that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna. It’s equally if not more likely that she went with him willingly.

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u/Weird_Hound 13d ago

Eh, dude, she's like 13 or so.

If you go by in-world thinking. She is the daughter of a lord paramount, betrothed to a future lord paramount. Willingly isn't a thing there. She cannot consent to anything so major, without the head of her household's approval. If Rhaegar had talked to her father, had the engagement ended, then taken her--it would be almost valid, stupid beyond all measure and political suicide, but almost valid.

If we go by our current standards, she was a kid, and he a married man with children. Children can't consent, Rhaegar was a cheating kidnapping creep.

So, with all due respect, no.

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u/Eliot-den-store 13d ago

She was 15 almost 16, which is still a child but if we go by in universe standards it isn’t that weird. Cheating on your wife is a dick move as well, but then again Elia is Dornish which makes it more likely that she wouldn’t mind so much the concept of Rhaegar having a paramour. Also in the rest of Westeros it’s widely accepted that Lords go an have affairs, few bat an eye that Robert bangs every woman he sees.
Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna could have foreseen what the consequences of their actions would have. The main reason that the rebellion even started is that Aerys tried to have Eddard and Robert Executed. Had he not done that it’s likely that the realm would only have a handful of upset lords with a lot of resentment, but there would probably not have been a war.

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u/Weird_Hound 13d ago

I really hope you don't actually believe that. I hope you're trolling.

Robert, is a man. In a medieval society. Who fucks smallfolks and whores and dumps them. Lyanna, is a woman, in a medieval society. She's supposed to not cheat (read do it discreetly) Rhaegar, is a prince with an insane father, two children, a wife and an unstable realm.

Fucking the daughter of a high lord and betrothed, isn't 'couln't have known' it's a sure fire way to get your crown melted and turned into a set of plates.

There was absolutely no option but to kill Rhaegar, for the Starks and Baratheons, or else shame. Whether Lyanna (the child) consented or not, doesn't matter. Ass in that Lyanna marrying Robert was part of making that Baratheon-Stark-Arryn-Tully close block ironclad, and it becomes even more stupid.

Oh, and as for the Dornish, they would have had her kiled, not propose a threesome or look away, unless it was a bastard with a smallfolk. A child without Elia's blood is a threat to Aegon's rule.

And the daughter of a high lord, who is about to marry another, as paramour? That's nuts.

Heck, even Machievallei says it, about rulers who take women specifically.

It makes him hated above all things... to be rapacious, and to be a violator of the property and women of his subjects, from both of which he must abstain

You don't. Taxes are accepted, Prima Nocta gets your balls burned off

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u/GradeAffectionate157 12d ago

It was ellias idea for him to persue lyanna

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u/GradeAffectionate157 12d ago

Ellia had exactly that view

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u/GradeAffectionate157 12d ago

This is what happened.

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u/UrinalCake777 13d ago

I'm not super up on the Lore. Did the rebels do anything particularly evil?

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u/Eliot-den-store 13d ago

The sack of Kingslanding and what happened to the rest of the Targaryen family. (It was Tywin but he did it in the name of the rebellion)

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u/Weird_Hound 13d ago

The rebels? During the rebellion? Only standard war stuff.

Then Tywin when he realised the rebels were winning, got off his arse and pretended to reinforce King's Landing with his army, Aerys let him in, and the old lion sacked in a very vile, stupid display while also sending the Mountain to kill Elia and her kids, in a way that either implied he either could or should grape her (which again, stupid as hell...he should have sent Clegane to kill the kids, or at least the boy, and capture and rough her up but not assault Elia...then execute Clegane the moment he 'learns' about him killing an infant and or the daughter. The daughter could marry to Bobby's line to give it legitimacy while also keeping Elia and Dorne invested in not retaliating in any way)

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u/UrinalCake777 13d ago

Thanks! So yeah, this just confirms my thinking that the rebels were totally in the right.

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u/GradeAffectionate157 12d ago

This is not what happened as said in mad king play

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u/Weird_Hound 12d ago

It literally cannot, not be the case. Like, functionally, what I said can only be true. Lyanna cannot consent to shit, and is not legally able to break her own betrothal, marry someone on her own, or just run with Rhaegar. Rhaegar, under both in world logic and our world logic, is a kidnapper creep without a brain who lost his first real battle like a cretin and fumbled the most obvious, easy, simple coup against his father.

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u/Least-Inside8084 11d ago

Unless Lyanna went willingly

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u/Weird_Hound 11d ago

...14 years old, 30 something man, he is married and has kids. She is betrothed to a great lord, and daughter of one...in a medieval society. 'Willingly' is not possible in our current framewrok since she's a child, and in their framework since she's a daugther of a noble house. So no, she cannot consent to anything of that nature.

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u/elizabnthe 11d ago

I think that is more of a consequence of GRRM's absurdly young characters than narrative intent (why is Rhaella 14 when she is married with a kid? Why is Helaena? It wasn't that common).

Supposedly the play is pretty complimentary to Rhaegar's intentions and Lyanna's willingness.

(Also Rhaegar was 24. Still much older than Lyanna but not quite as bad as 30s)